Gun control vs people power?

For topics unrelated to bush walking or to the forums.

Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby wayno » Sat 24 Mar, 2018 10:18 am

The Tracers - An inside look at the Real-Life Database of America’s Firearms.

https://vimeo.com/180763356
from the land of the long white clouds...

NZ Tramping News https://www.facebook.com/groups/208124842637462/
User avatar
wayno
Lagarostrobos franklinii
Lagarostrobos franklinii
 
Posts: 8366
Joined: Sun 19 Jun, 2011 7:26 am
Location: NZ
ASSOCIATED ORGANISATIONS: Sportzhub.com contributor;
Region: New Zealand
Gender: Male

Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby Moondog55 » Sat 24 Mar, 2018 10:38 am

I do wonder why we spend so much time talking about another countries problem. I honestly don't think it is any of our direct business unless we are using it as an excuse to not visit. Why the USA and not all those other countries with high murder rates and high rates of firearms possession?
Ve are too soon old und too late schmart
Moondog55
Lagarostrobos franklinii
Lagarostrobos franklinii
 
Posts: 8461
Joined: Thu 03 Dec, 2009 4:15 pm
Location: Norlane Geelong Victoria Australia
Region: Victoria
Gender: Male

Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby wayno » Sat 24 Mar, 2018 10:44 am

to make sure it doesn't happen in our countries as well, we're bombarded enough by American Tv and movie content as it is. we go to war alongside them...
from the land of the long white clouds...

NZ Tramping News https://www.facebook.com/groups/208124842637462/
User avatar
wayno
Lagarostrobos franklinii
Lagarostrobos franklinii
 
Posts: 8366
Joined: Sun 19 Jun, 2011 7:26 am
Location: NZ
ASSOCIATED ORGANISATIONS: Sportzhub.com contributor;
Region: New Zealand
Gender: Male

Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby Moondog55 » Sat 24 Mar, 2018 10:57 am

But it can't Wayno We here have no constitutional rights whatever, dunno about EnZeds constitution
Ve are too soon old und too late schmart
Moondog55
Lagarostrobos franklinii
Lagarostrobos franklinii
 
Posts: 8461
Joined: Thu 03 Dec, 2009 4:15 pm
Location: Norlane Geelong Victoria Australia
Region: Victoria
Gender: Male

Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby north-north-west » Sat 24 Mar, 2018 10:59 am

Moondog55 wrote: Why the USA and not all those other countries with high murder rates and high rates of firearms possession?


Can you name another major first-world country that has comparable rates of gun-related violence? Particularly one with the socio-cultural, economic and political influence of the US?
"Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens."
User avatar
north-north-west
Lagarostrobos franklinii
Lagarostrobos franklinii
 
Posts: 10982
Joined: Thu 14 May, 2009 7:36 pm
Location: The Asylum
ASSOCIATED ORGANISATIONS: Social Misfits Anonymous
Region: Tasmania

Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby wayno » Sat 24 Mar, 2018 11:05 am

Moondog55 wrote:But it can't Wayno We here have no constitutional rights whatever, dunno about EnZeds constitution


if you take the attitude that it won't happen here, then you are potentially letting complacency take over.
laws can and are changed.

once apon a time america thought it would steer clear of other peoples wars with military action abroad....
from the land of the long white clouds...

NZ Tramping News https://www.facebook.com/groups/208124842637462/
User avatar
wayno
Lagarostrobos franklinii
Lagarostrobos franklinii
 
Posts: 8366
Joined: Sun 19 Jun, 2011 7:26 am
Location: NZ
ASSOCIATED ORGANISATIONS: Sportzhub.com contributor;
Region: New Zealand
Gender: Male

Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby Moondog55 » Sat 24 Mar, 2018 11:20 am

But NNW why do you think it matters to us here?
It's not as if Australia and New Zealand are First world countries any more
Ve are too soon old und too late schmart
Moondog55
Lagarostrobos franklinii
Lagarostrobos franklinii
 
Posts: 8461
Joined: Thu 03 Dec, 2009 4:15 pm
Location: Norlane Geelong Victoria Australia
Region: Victoria
Gender: Male

Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby wayno » Sat 24 Mar, 2018 11:31 am

and it brings us back to why americans are armed to the teeth, partly because initially they struggled to afford a decent size permanent military, so they encouraged citizens to arm themselves, BYO weapons to any fight the nation may pick with indigenous people or foreigners... and they govt couldnt defend the citizens effectively outside of the cities, so it was defend yourself with your weapon of choice, but that was when the firearm of choice was a musket, a very inaccurate , slow to load weapon.. mass shootings from lone muskets were not an issue.
from the land of the long white clouds...

NZ Tramping News https://www.facebook.com/groups/208124842637462/
User avatar
wayno
Lagarostrobos franklinii
Lagarostrobos franklinii
 
Posts: 8366
Joined: Sun 19 Jun, 2011 7:26 am
Location: NZ
ASSOCIATED ORGANISATIONS: Sportzhub.com contributor;
Region: New Zealand
Gender: Male

Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby Moondog55 » Sat 24 Mar, 2018 11:58 am

I get that but why do we continue to think it has any bearing on us, tiny little second world country at the bottom of the globe
Ve are too soon old und too late schmart
Moondog55
Lagarostrobos franklinii
Lagarostrobos franklinii
 
Posts: 8461
Joined: Thu 03 Dec, 2009 4:15 pm
Location: Norlane Geelong Victoria Australia
Region: Victoria
Gender: Male

Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby wayno » Sat 24 Mar, 2018 12:02 pm

Moondog55 wrote:I get that but why do we continue to think it has any bearing on us, tiny little second world country at the bottom of the globe


because you cant predict the future but you can plan for it and avoid us from heading in that direction
from the land of the long white clouds...

NZ Tramping News https://www.facebook.com/groups/208124842637462/
User avatar
wayno
Lagarostrobos franklinii
Lagarostrobos franklinii
 
Posts: 8366
Joined: Sun 19 Jun, 2011 7:26 am
Location: NZ
ASSOCIATED ORGANISATIONS: Sportzhub.com contributor;
Region: New Zealand
Gender: Male

Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby Moondog55 » Sat 24 Mar, 2018 12:16 pm

Wayno I don't see why you can't understand that it can't happen here simply because we have no constitutional rights and if politicians and government make laws those laws are legal with no possibility of appeal That is where the American constitution differs from most if not all countries constitutions; It ensures that there are some laws a government cannot make. Under the Australian constitution we have no "Rights" as understood by USA citizens. It wasn't the people of Australia decided a decade or so ago that these weapons should be confiscated, it was one coward of a politician who saw electoral advantage in doing so. I understand the US point of view even if I do not agree with it.

EDIT
I can see rereading that my post could be misconstrued
I am referring to a fight to maintain rights in the above post. Not the possibility of a firearms massacre, that can ans will most likely happen again and again here but hopefully with a much lower incidence than in other countries
The weapons are here, hidden for the most part but they are here
Ve are too soon old und too late schmart
Moondog55
Lagarostrobos franklinii
Lagarostrobos franklinii
 
Posts: 8461
Joined: Thu 03 Dec, 2009 4:15 pm
Location: Norlane Geelong Victoria Australia
Region: Victoria
Gender: Male

Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby Avatar » Sat 24 Mar, 2018 3:38 pm

Students and teachers in rural Pennsylvania have been armed with buckets of rocks as a last resort to fight back against school shooters.
Every classroom in the Blue Mountain School District, situated 145 kilometres north-west of Philadelphia, has been given a bucket of river stones to defend themselves against armed intruders.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-03-24/us-students-armed-with-rocks-to-fight-school-shooters/9583134
I guess that's your people power in action. Sad.

Over 15,00 people are murdered in the US each year.
If America's armies were experiencing this level of attrition the media would be broadcasting body bags and funerals and all the usual suspects would be protesting in the streets.
Kind of ironic.
Last edited by Avatar on Sat 24 Mar, 2018 4:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
Avatar
Athrotaxis cupressoides
Athrotaxis cupressoides
 
Posts: 214
Joined: Sun 07 Jul, 2013 5:21 pm
Location: NE Melbourne
Region: Victoria

Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby highercountry » Sat 24 Mar, 2018 3:59 pm

I borrowed this quote from an article originally published on The Conversation;
https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2015/06/australia-hasnt-had-a-mass-shooting-since-1996/

"Australia Hasn’t Had A Mass Shooting Since 1996.
(Australia) ...had 13 mass shootings in the 18-year period from 1979 to 1996 but none in the succeeding 19 years..."

That's good enough for me.
Get rid of them.
There is no need for firearms in a modern and sophisticated society. Law enforcement, defence, farming and some private security ops excepted. Civilised people don't carry guns.
I grew up in the country as a kid with a .22 and a 410 shotgun. They were handed-in decades ago.
I don't need them, want them or miss them.
Gun control and restriction works.
John Howard"s 1996 reforms were a brave act, the only decision of his I have ever admired.
highercountry
Athrotaxis cupressoides
Athrotaxis cupressoides
 
Posts: 194
Joined: Tue 19 Apr, 2011 8:52 am
Region: Victoria
Gender: Male

Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby Lophophaps » Sat 24 Mar, 2018 5:15 pm

Avatar wrote:Over 15,00 people are murdered in the US each year. If America's armies were experiencing this level of attrition the media would be broadcasting body bags and funerals and all the usual suspects would be protesting in the streets. Kind of ironic.

This says something about their collective view.

highercountry wrote:That's good enough for me. Get rid of them. There is no need for firearms in a modern and sophisticated society. Law enforcement, defence, farming and some private security ops excepted. Civilised people don't carry guns.

I grew up in the country as a kid with a .22 and a 410 shotgun. They were handed-in decades ago. I don't need them, want them or miss them.

Gun control and restriction works. John Howard"s 1996 reforms were a brave act, the only decision of his I have ever admired.

Switzerland has a lot of guns but minimal gun crime
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 30606.html
"The country has about 2 million privately owned guns in a nation of 8.3 million people. In 2016, the country had 47 homicides with firearms. The country's overall murder rate is near zero."

Gun crimes depend on a number of factors. Proscribing gun ownerships is not one of them. Of course there should be background checks, some guns being procribed, locked cabinets with ammo stored elsewhere, and more, but banning guns outright would not work. There's too many entrenched interests. In any case, the responsible gun owners will not abuse the way that guns are used. Criminals will acquire black guns by several means.

Subtle, workable approaches are best.
User avatar
Lophophaps
Auctorita modica
Auctorita modica
 
Posts: 2489
Joined: Wed 09 Nov, 2011 9:45 am
Region: Victoria
Gender: Male

Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby wayno » Sat 24 Mar, 2018 5:37 pm

the 15,000 murders are spread among 320 million people

the US permanent armed forces is under 1.3 million people with 800,000 reserves
that would only equate to 100 deaths a year in the armed forces....
when people are murdered in poor areas it doesnt make the news as readily and that's where most of them are being murdered.
from the land of the long white clouds...

NZ Tramping News https://www.facebook.com/groups/208124842637462/
User avatar
wayno
Lagarostrobos franklinii
Lagarostrobos franklinii
 
Posts: 8366
Joined: Sun 19 Jun, 2011 7:26 am
Location: NZ
ASSOCIATED ORGANISATIONS: Sportzhub.com contributor;
Region: New Zealand
Gender: Male

Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby highercountry » Sat 24 Mar, 2018 6:27 pm

Lophophaps wrote:Switzerland has a lot of guns but minimal gun crime
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 30606.html
"The country has about 2 million privately owned guns in a nation of 8.3 million people. In 2016, the country had 47 homicides with firearms. The country's overall murder rate is near zero."


Switzerland has the highest rate of gun deaths in Europe;
http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/compare/178/rate_of_all_gun_deaths_per_100_000_people/10,11,69,88,172,91,194,192,66
Swiss gun ownership is one quarter that of the US per capita.
highercountry
Athrotaxis cupressoides
Athrotaxis cupressoides
 
Posts: 194
Joined: Tue 19 Apr, 2011 8:52 am
Region: Victoria
Gender: Male

Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby tastrax » Sat 24 Mar, 2018 7:47 pm

Good old statistics - always able to be manipulated to show show some horror story

http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/compa ... 42,339,128
Cheers - Phil

Kiva Lender
User avatar
tastrax
Athrotaxis selaginoides
Athrotaxis selaginoides
 
Posts: 1533
Joined: Fri 28 Mar, 2008 6:25 pm
Location: What3words - epic.constable.downplayed
ASSOCIATED ORGANISATIONS: RETIRED! - Parks and Wildlife Service
Region: Tasmania

Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby Avatar » Sun 01 Apr, 2018 2:43 am

James D'Angelo shares some ideas on reforming a paralyzed congress vis a vis NRA clobber lobbying:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVfzvhRhmgI&t=3s

Maybe counter-intuitive to those who propose more transparency, but this protocol is clearly fundamental to a properly functioning democracy.

The Ancient Greeks realised corruption (bribery and intimidation) of the process was an issue and used secret ballots, so this goes a long way back.
Modern democracies have not had secret ballots for very long. Tasmania has been noted as an early implementer of secret ballots in the modern era.

This video needs to go viral in the US.
User avatar
Avatar
Athrotaxis cupressoides
Athrotaxis cupressoides
 
Posts: 214
Joined: Sun 07 Jul, 2013 5:21 pm
Location: NE Melbourne
Region: Victoria

Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby stry » Wed 04 Apr, 2018 8:22 pm

Refreshing to see someone prepared to highlight factors in this issue other than firearms availability.

https://www.facebook.com/theactivistmom ... zOTQ4Mjg4/

Particularly relevant to the one sided focus on the tools used by criminals, rather than the underlying issues in the aberrant behaviour of those criminals.
stry
Phyllocladus aspleniifolius
Phyllocladus aspleniifolius
 
Posts: 972
Joined: Mon 10 Jun, 2013 6:28 pm
Region: Victoria
Gender: Male

Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby Tekker76 » Fri 07 Dec, 2018 1:32 am

I'll play devils advocate here, former gunowner and hunter, gave up mostly as tired of shooting poor animals, not a moral epiphany regards guns per se.

I see laws as only part of the overall control of crime. The other two equal factors are resources and culture. When these are strong enough, people to a degree manage themselves with less laws. And there always needs to be balance, when any of the three really start to slide, adding to the third is a poor bandaid. For example previous generations here had little gun laws, they were far more easily accessed, I had legally unregistered guns in my closet or sitting unlocked in the truck, the army even used to auction old guns to the public and you only needed a drivers licence to purchase. My uncle as a kid used to ride his pushbike into town and pick up the families order of jelly from the grocery store( jelignite high explosive!) for blasting stumps on their few acres, right next door to town.

Where were the drive-bys, the terrorist attacks, the school shootings, the 'American level gun violence' that such availability should be paraelling? There was crime but there was no American level of crime- even when we could buy C4 level explosive more easily than most Americans today.

Also using the US as an example is too simplified. The 50 states of America operate with relative autonomy and have vastly differing laws. From almost free-gun use states like Texas and Utah to highly resctrictive states closer to our end of the spectrum( New york, Washington DC etc.) Not to mention NZ laws , a lot looser than Aus laws, sit around the middle ground of several American states laws for laxity. Good luck drawing direct parallels between gun violence and availability across that mix...

I am not a 'no-gun laws' guy and I'm not saying we had a better culture ( at the risk of a horde of economically disenfranchised millennials descending on me waving anti-patriachy placards) but I am saying there is more at work here than assuming X amount of laws= X level of behaviour.
Tekker76
Athrotaxis cupressoides
Athrotaxis cupressoides
 
Posts: 158
Joined: Wed 05 Sep, 2018 12:44 am
Location: Wet Tropics
Region: Queensland
Gender: Male

Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby Gadgetgeek » Fri 07 Dec, 2018 7:13 pm

I think the thing that frustrates me most about the entire debate is that both sides, or at least the main spokesmen, use fear as their main motivator. I'm sure you've all encountered someone start talking about a topic that is core to what you do for a living, and you know right away that they are only informed enough to be dangerous. My entire job centers around fear, and so when I see it used as a tool or selfish means, or falsely placated it drives me mental. This comes on the heels of the new decryption law that australia has passed, its the same thing, fear used to manipulate. Everyone has their "this takes us back to the stone age" thing. For me its the pushing of fear instead of information to the average person. But realistic TV news is both boring and will cause existential dread, so I get why no one likes it.
Gadgetgeek
Athrotaxis selaginoides
Athrotaxis selaginoides
 
Posts: 1008
Joined: Sun 23 Sep, 2012 4:10 pm
Region: Queensland
Gender: Male

Previous

Return to Between Bushwalks

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: rowdy and 4 guests