Tyres for snow and mud

[Moondog55]

I have already asked this question in another forum but I am open to all comments
I'm getting my ute repaired and I will need new tyres While I have decided to go with Yokohama because of the sidewall strength in case I need to fit chains I cannot seem to be able to decide on profile. Costs will predicate rubber at the cheaper end
Does anybody here already use Yokohama Geolander GO 12?
Snow would demand getting the taller, skinny 195/80 R15 but the slightly lower 205/70R15 may be a touch better on the highway and I am dithering
I simply cannot afford Michies

[Gadgetgeek]

My experience with snow/mud conditions has shown that size and profile have less to do with it, and more the compound and then tread. I used to drive places on BFG A/Ts that other guys with an assortment of mud terrain tires could not, essentially in colder weather/freezing rain. The mud tires would stay too hard, and not grip the frozen ground, where as the ATs are not the worlds greatest tire, but soft enough to grab onto the ground. There were a few times that even that was not enough, and the truck went its own way.

I would say that since you are already planning on using chains, then go for whatever gives you a good highway ride, the chains will account for much more added traction than the profile.

[Strider]

I was going to go with G012's a little while ago but ended up with Bridgestone D694's instead. I sold the vehicle after around 30,000km and they were less than half worn despite spending their whole life travelling back and forward on the Lyell Highway (very windy). Pricing was similar from memory and both have a 3-ply sidewall. Without doubt the best tyre I have ever owned.

205/70R15 is a more common size and 10mm won't make too much difference IMO. Both are still particularly skinny tyres when compared to what most 4WD's are shod with.

[sthughes]

Of course going from a 205/70 to a 195/80 is technically illegal unless it's a proper 4x4
I've got Bridgeston D697's in LT235/70R16 on my car which have been very good, 70,000km and still going strong and may get 100,000km out of them. I upped the size from 215 to 235 for the extra clearance, and apart from being technically illegal they have pushed fuel consumption up about 10%. Haven't used them in the snow very much though, but they seemed good when I did - but that was more slush than real snow. GO12 were on my list at the time, but I couldn't get them in LT spec.

[photohiker]

The life of the LT tyres is actually a bit of a problem for us. We have a 4x4 but we only use it for trips. I'm dead against driving around the city and burbs with a hulking people and car bashing tank

Anyway, the tank is 6 years old, 40,000 km and the LT tyres we put on it are the same age but not half worn. They have to go, tyre failure increases with age as they get harder and more brittle. Where we go in the outback is often so remote multiple tyre failure would be a potential disaster. We carry 2 spares and a comprehensive repair kit. I'm thinking of turning them over every 3 years and selling the old ones on ebay, there looks to be good trade on used LT tyres in popular sizes there.

For the ute, I'm guessing it is an everyday vehicle, I'd probably look at the D694's haven't seen the 697's, but the _look_ similar.

[Giddy_up]

tyre failure increases with age as they get harder and more brittle.

Interesting photohiker, my experience is exactly the opposite for the same reason you list. When I had my farms we would buy sets of tyres for all our equipment and vehicles and we would hang them in a dry, dark shed for storage so the rubber could harden in the tyres. We found they lasted longer and we achieve superior mileage from hardened tyres as apposed to fresh soft rubber straight from the tyre fitter. We use to do plenty of miles as well, we lived 140km from the nearest grocery store to give you some idea.

[sthughes]

Yeah well for me they will be bald before they turn 3 years old, so I'm not too bothered about age.

Just from what I have heard I thought old tyres were supposed to be less inclined to puncture but more inclined to die by other means as they lost flexibility and hardened.

I had the 694's before the 697's. I couldn't get a 694 in an LT that would fit my car at the time. The 697's have superseded the 694's, and luckily for me can be got in an LT that fits. They are quite similar, but I think the 694 had better grip on gravel, however being non-LT punctures were an issue, 697's a smidgen better on asphalt perhaps. Next tyres may be BF Goodrich TA/KO or Toyo Open Country AT2 in a 225/70 R16. I think that size will be the sweet spot for me (and legal!), in LT tyres the options are very limited at that size.

[photohiker]

tyre failure increases with age as they get harder and more brittle.

Interesting photohiker, my experience is exactly the opposite for the same reason you list. When I had my farms we would buy sets of tyres for all our equipment and vehicles and we would hang them in a dry, dark shed for storage so the rubber could harden in the tyres. We found they lasted longer and we achieve superior mileage from hardened tyres as apposed to fresh soft rubber straight from the tyre fitter. We use to do plenty of miles as well, we lived 140km from the nearest grocery store to give you some idea.

Agree that fresh rubber is softer. Our tyress are often deflated to 15psi for traction and puncture protection in rocky terrain and a few psi higher in sand. A softer tyre will handle this perfectly but a hardened tyre will suffer. What happens is that sharp rocks tear at the tread on the hard rubber while the softer rubber flexes around the rocks. Maximum tread life of a hardened tyre does not equate to best traction and reliability. I have a mate who is the most careful (and slow) driver you might ever meet. His car had 10 year old tyres with amazing tread life but those tyres would not grip at all! When you pushed your thumbnail into the tyre it was like a brick. He did a country trip (at 80kmh lol) and one of those tyres delaminated on him. Finally he agreed with me about keeping those tyres too long. With new tyres, it was like a completely different car.

At the current rate of wear our LT's are good for 80,000km+ and that is starting soft and basically throwing abuse at them on outback tracks. We are lucky to get 30,000km out of our car tyres around the city. Heavy machinery tyres might be a different ball park as they are a lot heavier duty than even LT tyres, they probably take longer to internally harden as well.

Here's a bit of background about aged tyres from Bridgestone:

How old is too old?

This is a subject of much debate within the tyre industry and no tyre expert can tell exactly how long a tyre will last. However, on the results of experience many tyre companies, including Bridgestone, warrant their tyres against manufacturing and material defects for five years from the date of manufacture. Based on their understanding a number of vehicle manufacturers are now advising against the use of tyres that are more than six years old due to the effects of ageing.

Tyre Ageing Mechanism
There are three main mechanisms of tyre ageing. The first involves rubber becoming more brittle. Sulphur is used to link rubber molecules together during vulcanisation with the application of heat and pressure, giving the rubber its useful elastic properties and strength. As the tyre absorbs energy in the form of light, heat or movement the tyre continues to vulcanise. This ongoing vulcanisation causes the rubber to become stiffer and more brittle.

The second mechanism of tyre ageing is oxidation involving oxygen and ozone from the air compromising the strength and elasticity of the rubber and the integrity of the rubber to steel bond. Basically heat and oxygen cause cross linking between polymer chains (causing the rubber to harden) and scission of polymer chains (leading to reduced elasticity).

Thirdly, breakdown of the rubber to steel-belt bond will occur due to water permeating through a tyre and bonding with the brass plate coating on steel belts. This causes the steel to rubber bond to weaken leading to reduced tyre strength and reduced heat resistance. If compressed air used for inflation is not completely dry, tyre strength will be affected over time. Even unused tyres will become more brittle, weaker and less elastic with exposure to water, air, heat and sunlight.

Warning signs
Regardless of their age tyres should be replaced if they show significant crazing or cracking in the tread grooves or sidewall (Figure 3&4) and or bulging of the tread face or sidewall. All tyres, especially unused spare tyres, should be inspected periodically to determine their suitability for service. If there is any question about a tyre's suitability please consult your local Bridgestone Tyre Centre expert.

http://www.bridgestone.com.au/tyres/pas ... e/age.aspx

[Moondog55]

I'd better replace the tyres on my trailer then

[markg]

Compound has nothing to do with the tyres ability to displace mud or snow or whatever, it's the tread pattern. If we are talking off road work here, and in snow/mud conditions, no tyre will generate enough heat for the compound of the tyre to make any difference at all simply because the speed is not sufficient to make a soft compound really sticky or a hard compound to start to get sticky. Of course any tyre can and will deteriorate over time, regardless of it's design or compound. LT tyres , depending on type and construction generally (a dedicated off road tyre) will give you greater sidewall stiffness and stake resistance. You need a large lugged pattern to shed mud and snow effectively and keep you mobile in that environment .Before you buy any tyre, you should check the date of manufacture on the sidewall, along with all the other handy info there as well. If I were you, I would look at as many makers as possible, as sizing can differ from one maker to the other, and see if I could get myself a nice 4 rib AT pattern. FYI, I run a set of Pro Comps that I have found to be a great all rounder, but sadly are quite dear. Maxxis make a good cheap tyre but not sure of the sizing. Too bad you are in Vic, I am removing a pair of 750 R16s non directional off road tyres (similar to what the Army uses on their trailers) that are on a set of Lcruiser split rims. The tyres have all of 180ks on them.

[Moondog55]

7.50R16 are probably not going to fit on a 6J*15 rim tho, no matter how cheap they are.

[markg]

Suppose not. Would of been happy to give them to you. Must admit to liking split rims, easy to fix flats with them.

[Moondog55]

Got a pair here for a cruiser if you want to come and collect, I used them as training aids. Try roping a pair of those up in tandem and dragging along the bitumen ( on the rims too of course)

[Gadgetgeek]

Markg, I think you were referring to my post, as far as compound goes. Maybe it only matters in temps around the -20C mark, I don't know. All I can speak to is that from experience, so called "better" tires (wider, taller, bigger lugs) all did much poorer at cold temps than the BFG ATs which are kind of average. Not really great for anything, but much softer than of the mud tires. The guys who had spent the dollars on the mudders threw every trick in the book at them, getting the lugs syped(sp?) edges scalloped, and were convinced they needed those big clearance gaps. And yet, no one with a narrow gap tire ever had tire loading cause a problem. Granted we were almost always on "roads" so a frozen surface with a little snow on it. But even in the spring, as the roads were thawing and it would turn into a big soupy mess, I never had trouble keeping up with the mudders, and still had better traction in the morning on the frost. (either that or I was the only one who could drive, and I highly doubt thats the case) An even more stark contrast to this is something like an X-ice tire that will very nearly stick to sheer ice, where as that same truck with a Cooper mud tire can nearly be pushed by hand (a bit of an exaggeration, but not much) the downside is that if the pavement temp gets above 0, those X-ice last about 5000km. It could very well be that above -20 none of it matters and all the tires preform about the same. I'm kinda unfamiliar with the conditions Moondog might be finding, since generally by the time I've found snow, the ground is frozen, so traction to the snow counts for more than mud chewing performance. I've also never driven a 4x4 in Canada with less than a 5.7L engine, so I don't know how much that torque and horsepower has made up for other sins.
Having only used chains a couple of times, I can say though that once the chains go on, the tire underneath really doesn't matter. You get so much more traction that the tire could be bald (thats why I used the chains). Obviously that greatly limits your speed, so good tires will really help with those marginal conditions. But if the odds are that you need the chains regardless, then its best to just have the best daily driver tires (granted, they still need to be tough enough) and not compromise on your regular driving.

[Moondog55]

I wouldn't mind ( read "Please help" opinions on optimum rim size for the old ute. While I have plenty of steel 6*15s here I am trying to decide if I should but the set of 4 15*7s that are on ebay cheap. [ $75- a mag rim is cheap as S/H steel rims are $30- each]
A few more opinions on the optimum tyres would not be ignored either, if for instance I don't really need a dedicated M&S tyre then I can save some cash but I would rather spend money on rubber now while I have it than spin off the road at some further date.
I don't like mixing tread patterns F&R either on cars or I'd use a steering tyre Front and M&S on the Rear in winter which was common practice on trucks
It has been so long since I needed to buy small tyres my knowledge base is out of date
Good news is I get my ute back Friday at the earliest or Monday/Tuesday and I should be driving it again by the week after [ full service and tune is now in order- been putting that off for 6 months or more ]

[Moondog55]

I made a decision finally; Bridgestone Dueler, nominally the same as the rated tyres. In the end it was a money decision even tho I was offered a really good deal on a set of Cooper AT3 at $240- each the Duelers are $147- cheaper than any of the others and almost as good for what I need
Decided we shouldn't buy the mags after all.
14s will go on the trailer,

[Strider]

You won't regret it. Coopers are the worst tyre I've ever had the displeasure of using. So bad they literally chipped themselves apart until they eventually just leaked all over the tread surface!

[north-north-west]

You won't regret it. Coopers are the worst tyre I've ever had the displeasure of using. So bad they literally chipped themselves apart until they eventually just leaked all over the tread surface!

Really? I'm on my third set and love the little blighters.

[Strider]

Really! So bad they replaced them under warranty and the second set did exactly the same thing.

[north-north-west]

Never had any trouble with mine. One puncture in almost 200,000km, and that's it. Last longer than anything else I've used.

[Travis22]

IMO there are duds from every manufacturer.

My person preference is BFG. I got 100,000 out of my last set of MT KM2's. Others report 30,000km. There are so many variables from the user side of things I'll admit I'd be quicker to blame the user then the manufacturer of any tire.

Travis.

[photohiker]

To be fair, I think Cooper did go through a rough time with tire failures, but I haven't heard that actual failures have continued even though the stories do

[Moondog55]

I like the Duelers, I came back home from the tyre fitters by a slippery, grit and wheat covered back road just to see what they were like. They suit the car very well.
Now for new wheel bearings, bushes and the rest of the front end and I guess we'll get another 300;000k out of the old bomb, rings and bearings not withstanding

Interestingly the JAX dealer also mentioned warranty issues with a series of Cooper tyres

[Moondog55]

Just a little update, I've put 6k on the clock with the new wheel and tyre combo and find they work very very well on the ute.
NVH is only minimally greater and roadholding on most roads and most conditions much better. Speed is practically the same as is economy = >2%

[johnnymacfnq]

Good to hear, I've been looking at getting a RTV and due to the wider track tyres are a real PITA. If you're not already a member check out http://www.fordforums.com.au/, good info, good people.

[Moondog55]

Good to hear, I've been looking at getting a RTV and due to the wider track tyres are a real PITA. If you're not already a member check out http://www.fordforums.com.au/, good info, good people.

Same moniker there as here LOL