cigarette butts

[GPSGuided]

Most surprising is how few people seem to suffer from the same complaints when exposed to a campfire...

Camp fires are generally outdoors and the smoke is cleared by the wind. Comparable to why there are allocated smoko areas outside public buildings with congregation of smokers. Just not allowed to smoke within confined indoor spaces. That's all.

[north-north-west]

The expectation that smokers should be shunted off to one side seems remarkably rude and does nothing to further pleasant conversation amongst friends.

The expectation that non-smokers should 'just move away' seems remarkably rude and does nothing to further pleasant conversation amongst friends.

While extending sympathy to the hypersensitive, and those of poor health, it is surprising how selective such allergies can appear at times. Most surprising is how few people seem to suffer from the same complaints when exposed to a campfire.

Any smoke for long enough bothers me. Tobacco smoke - and especially that from manufactured cigarettes (as opposed to rollies) - is by far the worst.
I don't need sympathy; it does nothing remedy the damage that has already been done, nor does it mitigate any further damage. What I, others like me, and all non-smokers need is for the drug addicts to indulge in their habit in such a way as to avoid any harm to others.

We insist on people being responsible when they drive, to ensure others are not harmed. Why is not the same responsibility expected from those addicted to legal recreational drugs?

[peregrinator]

G'day vicrev,

Smokers more than pay their way. The taxes they pay are more than sufficient to pay their medical bills and they (often) die earlier so do not become a drain on the public purse in old age.

On wowsers (a term that describes a person who seeks to deprive others of behaviour deemed to be immoral or "sinful" or alternatively a ineffably pious person who mistakes this world for a penitentiary and himself for a warden), there is plenty of material out there. Before he got silly, Padraic McGunniess had a few interesting ideas to contribute, including this piece. Also worth a read is The Rise of the Green Wowser.

Cheers,

Maddog.

But the medical expertise that is devoted to smoker's ills would be redirected to other tasks in the absence of diseases caused by smoking. The waiting lists for surgery might not be so horrendous.

I think you may be barking up the wrong tree regarding wowsers. I think most people would consider this is purely a health issue. Morality does not come into it. There is a massive amount of dispassionate data in studies like http://www.tobaccoinaustralia.org.au addressing the topic. No symptoms of wowserism detectable in that document.

The lightweight articles that you reference either miss the main point or are bereft of logic. For example, McGuiness begins:

But their [e.g. anti-tobacco campaigners] chief motivation is not, of course, the good of humanity or the health of the community but a mean-spirited puritanism. . .

A sweeping generalisation without evidence that effectively means nothing. (And you reckon this was written "before [my emphasis] he got silly"?!?)

I do like your description of a wowser as an

ineffably pious person who mistakes this world for a penitentiary and himself for a warden.

No doubt such creatures exist, but you have not shown how they are influencing the (serious) debate on tobacco.

Returning to butts in the bush (no, not Blackbutts, Euc. pilularis), I once found a smouldering butt in Wilsons Prom which had ignited some leaf litter. It would probably have been a considerable time before anyone else passed, so by then a conflagration could have been well advanced.

[neil_fahey]

Have to laugh at the last paragraph their north-north-west...

I find car fumes far more offensive than cigarette smoke. When I go for a run around the streets near my suburban home, I often wonder whether I'm doing myself more harm than good. I try to go to a park when I can so as to be a little further from the cars and their emissions.

As an on-and-off smoker, I can tell you from experience that we are constantly judged and looked down upon, and we're very much expected to be responsible with our smoke. I go to great lengths to avoid being near any non-smokers when I'm smoking.

I can see both sides of the coin. Many smokers need to start showing non-smokers a lot more respect when they're choosing whether or not to spark up. There's absolutely no excuse for dropping a cigarette butt anywhere other than a bin/ashtray. But many non-smokers probably just need to chill out a bit, I think. Think about the things you do that harm other people too. Nobody is perfect.

[vicrev]

Maybe maddog can send me a" Head Wowser Warden Badge"... ..........

[GPSGuided]

There you have it!

[vicrev]

Thank you GPS, that's very nice...I'm a little bit dissapointed,I was hoping for something shiny,with star points................

[walkerchris77]

I knew a guy once who didn't like his car smelling like an ashtray so he would throw his butts out the window. I believe hes pushing up daisies now thanks to lung cancer.

[horsecat]

Not good flicking them out the window of a moving car (apart from the obvious). Years ago was getting a lift from some idiot in The Kimberly who smoked like a chimney. Me sitting in the back seat with the window down due to the smoke. Driver then flicked one out. Wind caught the burner and into my ear it went. It's actually a very hard process to get a burning ember out of your ear without pushing it further into your head...ended up with a scabby inner ear for a while

[north-north-west]

But many non-smokers probably just need to chill out a bit, I think.

I'll try to 'just chill out a bit' next time I'm choking, wheezing and gasping for breath due to some inconsiderate jerk's drug addiction. So far O2 therapy is the only thing that helps but, who knows, you might have hit on the perfect treatment.

[vicrev]

Problem solved....."Chill out a bit".........

[GPSGuided]

'Chill out - the new flavour in your fag!'

[neil_fahey]

I completely agree with you that smokers need to be more considerate, as I've said a couple of times. i'm sorry if I appeared to be making light of your breathing issues. That was certainly not my intention. I was trying to make a point about everyone being more considerate, but it appears that in the process I've been inconsiderate myself. Should have put more thought into my comment. I apologise.

[north-north-west]

I completely agree with you that smokers need to be more considerate, as I've said a couple of times. i'm sorry if I appeared to be making light of your breathing issues. That was certainly not my intention. I was trying to make a point about everyone being more considerate, but it appears that in the process I've been inconsiderate myself. Should have put more thought into my comment. I apologise.

Fair enough, mate. In hindsight, my response was probably a bit OTT - not so much the sentiment itself, but the way it was expressed. It's a topic that does tend to lead to polarisation.

[maddog]

A good example of the concerns of wowsers turning their attention to campfire smoke can be found here.

And a good article on the nasty and petty persecution of smokers and the hypocrisy of anti-smokers here.

Cheers,

Maddog.

[north-north-west]

A good example of the concerns of wowsers turning their attention to campfire smoke can be found here.

And a good article on the nasty and petty persecution of smokers and the hypocrisy of anti-smokers here.

If you'd spent as much time as I have being forced to choose between having a job and escaping cigarette smoke - when its deleterious effects were already well established - you wouldn't refer to 'nasty & petty persecution' nor hypocrisy.

This isn't about 'I don't want you to enjoy yourself', it's purely about the impact on (non-smoking) people's health.

[GPSGuided]

And a good article on the nasty and petty persecution of smokers and the hypocrisy of anti-smokers here.

Hardly petty, hardly persecution. It's about having the courtesy of taking the air pollution (carcinogenic/allergenic or not) away from fellow members of the society, just as for not speaking loudly in public and the noise pollution it brings. Sorry, smoking is no longer considered to be a societal norm in public in the 21st century. Get over it.

[maddog]

Hardly persecution you think. Excluding smokers from National Parks? Sacking workers on the basis that they may return indoors after a cigarette and ‘de-gas’ smoke particles? All justified because an intolerant minority (and wowsers are always in the minority) find the smell irritating? I take it from your reply that you are also in favor of banning the campfire on public health grounds?



Much more important than ‘societal norms’ are civil liberties. Had the societal norm of the wowser prevailed we would not now be able to enjoy the many works of Norman Lindsay (as just one example of so many). Thankfully libertarians tend to prevail in the long run.

Cheers,

Maddog.

[icefest]

Thankfully libertarians tend to prevail in the long run.

Which ones?

Libertarian Socialists
Anarcho-libertarians
Laissez-faire libertarians
Green libertarians
Geolibertarians

I'm not sure if what you say is true though. I'd say that we are less libertarian than we have been.

[maddog]

G'day icefest,

Libertarianism, with no further description, is just fine. But if we are to pick between them:

The lassie fair type is the least attractive as obsessed with the most vulgar aspect of liberty - money, wealth and privilege. It is amusing that Adam Smith failed to foresee the French revolution – he lost a lot of friends.

Socialism and Syndicalism have some appeal.

I have never heard of a green libertarian. Greens I have met (and read) have always seemed to me to be dour and authoritarian, rather than libertarian by nature (for example the nasty Mr. Ehrlich).

I agree recently the only liberty we have seen in recent times has been the economic type. But surely we can look forward to a better future.

Cheers,

Maddog.

[vicrev]

I thought this was a thread about cigarette butts.....I must be wrong........

[corvus]

Cig butts create some of the the worst pollution on land, our waterways and Oceans, some consideration of disposal would be handy starting with some Supermarkets installing butt bins and patrons and employees using them I also encourage site owners to enforce an at least a three metre ban from smoking at the entrances of their premises .
I am an ex smoker and feel for those caught up in the GRIP of that Demon.

[GPSGuided]

I thought this was a thread about cigarette butts.....I must be wrong........

Thread drift, just as for a smoker with a butt on his lips and drifting into smoky thoughts...

[vicrev]

With visions of Norman Lindsay...........

[puredingo]

I tend to think of Norman gunston while I'm enjoying a ciggie and drink after a hard days graft.

Thank God there's the odd few who totally buck the "societal norm" like Gary and let their creative nouse entertain us all.

[maddog]

Fatness is killing more people than smoking. Fatties are to be condemned for destroying the Earth. Disturbingly, scientists say fatness is contagious and breathing air exhaled by the fatty may be dangerous. Some people believe that it is necessary to turn fatties into social outcasts to protect the health of the general public. Many doctors think that, like smokers and drinkers, fatties should be refused medical treatment.

But perhaps smoking is a cure for fatness.

Cheers,

Maddog.

[vicrev]

How profound...

[corvus]

Obesity is not in the most self induced , as I have observed many overweight folk smoking and I suspect with many quite a lot are Diabetic,as an ex smoker of "gazillions" of fags over 30 years who knows what it did to my body ?
Love them or leave them IMA they are an insidious waste of money and a definite health and wealth hazard.
Going cold Turkey for me was not too dramatic but what do you do with a Gold Dunhill Lighter purchased a year just before I stopped smoking
I must add that I weigh 70kg.

[maddog]

G’day vicrev,

You are too generous.

However, given your response, I’m sure you would enjoy ‘Cigarettes are Sublime’ by Richard Klein. According to Klein:

We are in the midst of one of those periodic moments of repression, when the culture, descended from Puritans, imposes its hysterical visions and enforces its guilty constraints on society, legislating moral judgments under the guise of public health, all the while enlarging the power of surveillance and the reach of censorship to achieve a general restriction of freedom.

Klein continues:

The freedom to smoke ought to be understood as a significant token of the class of freedoms, and when it is threatened one should look instantly for what other controls are being tightened, for what other checks on freedoms are being administered. The attitude of a society toward the freedom to smoke is a test of the way it understands the rights of people at large, for at any time, a quarter to a half of all the people in the world are puffing away at cigarettes.

You can read a review - Here’s Puffing at You, Kid.

Cheers,

Maddog.

[north-north-west]

The freedom to smoke ought to be understood as a significant token of the class of freedoms, and when it is threatened one should look instantly for what other controls are being tightened, for what other checks on freedoms are being administered. The attitude of a society toward the freedom to smoke is a test of the way it understands the rights of people at large, for at any time, a quarter to a half of all the people in the world are puffing away at cigarettes.

No-one here is trying to deny people the freedom to smoke. We have all made that quite plain, so could you cease and desist with the wowserism line?

All we are asking is that smokers don't deny non-smokers the freedom to not have to go to sometimes inordinate lengths not to inhale their smoke.

I repeat: I don't care how anyone chooses to kill themselves. But their civil liberties end where they encroach on someone else's, so they can do what they want as long as they keep their filthy drugs away from me and those like me who don't use them.