cigarette butts

[vicrev]

[vicrev]

A gold Dunhill lighter would be impressive to light the campfire corvus,want to sell ?.........

[neilmny]

Fatness is killing more people than smoking. Fatties are to be condemned for destroying the Earth. Disturbingly, scientists say fatness is contagious and breathing air exhaled by the fatty may be dangerous. Some people believe that it is necessary to turn fatties into social outcasts to protect the health of the general public. Many doctors think that, like smokers and drinkers, fatties should be refused medical treatment.

But perhaps smoking is a cure for fatness.

Cheers,

Maddog.

You're just here for the argument aren't you maddog?

[GPSGuided]

Maddog has been most conscientious!

[Bubbalouie]

http://arstechnica.com/science/2014/12/ ... -by-facts/

People hold beliefs for a complex variety of reasons. Some of these beliefs may be based on facts, but others may be based on ideas that can never be proved or disproven. For example, people who are against the death penalty might base their belief partly on evidence that the death penalty does not reduce violent crime (which could later be shown to be false), and partly on the notion that the death penalty violates a fundamental human right to life. The latter is an unfalsifiable belief, because it can’t be changed purely by facts.

Take what you will from the above, from my perspective some arguments can not be won and are best not entered into (easier said than done though).

[corvus]

A gold Dunhill lighter would be impressive to light the campfire corvus,want to sell ?.........

Sorry vicrev it is not for sale and I have never used it to light a campfire" Trangia yes" however I have used the Zippo I purchased in 1964 to light many campfires on both sides of the world ,this has now been "mothballed" for a flint and steel

[vicrev]

A gold Dunhill lighter would be impressive to light the campfire corvus,want to sell ?.........

Sorry vicrev it is not for sale and I have never used it to light a campfire" Trangia yes" however I have used the Zippo I purchased in 1964 to light many campfires on both sides of the world ,this has now been "mothballed" for a flint and steel

[vicrev]

Hope a " in denial " smoker on this forum didn't beat me to it................

[maddog]

You're just here for the argument aren't you maddog?

G’day neilmny,

I’m here because I am a bushwalker. As to my activity in this thread I just thought it could be livened up a bit. In finishing, Christopher Snowden, writing for Spiked, put the issue as follows:

Society finds it easy to ridicule the pointy-headed puritans and lemon-sucking prohibitionists of earlier eras, but we are peculiarly shortsighted when it comes to identifying the same scolds amongst us today. Once identified, they should be treated with the same derision and denormalisation that they dish out so freely.

He concluded that:

Whether they are well-intentioned do-gooders, sly charlatans or malevolent bigots, they must be tolerated in a civilised society, but they do not have to be suffered gladly and they should never be given the reins of power. It is time to denormalise the demagogues...

I’d have to say that I am inclined to agree.

Cheers,

Maddog.

[peregrinator]

G’day vicrev,

You are too generous.

However, given your response, I’m sure you would enjoy ‘Cigarettes are Sublime’ by Richard Klein. According to Klein:

We are in the midst of one of those periodic moments of repression, when the culture, descended from Puritans, imposes its hysterical visions and enforces its guilty constraints on society, legislating moral judgments under the guise of public health, all the while enlarging the power of surveillance and the reach of censorship to achieve a general restriction of freedom.

Don't know about "sublime". How about the sublimation of self-destruction?

In the passage quoted, the phrase "under the guise of public health" implies that public health can either be ignored or seen as secondary when certain issues restrict individual freedoms. Is the idea of public health a good one or not? We'd all agree that no one in this country has the right to discharge their sewage into the street, or install asbestos insulation in their buildings. Or would we?

The libertarian argument you have propounded does not seem to acknowledge that freedom to do some acts can result in public harm. Evidence about the nature of that harm certainly exists when it comes to smoking. Yes, it is true that the administration of public health can result in unwanted surveillance. But rather than simply condemn that as being an imposition caused by an "hysterical vision" and blindly hope that it will disappear, the public must ensure that administration is itself appropriately "surveyed". (Note the increasing demand for anti-corruption investigations.)

Returning to the specific issue of tobacco, it'a truism that most smokers got hooked at a young age, when they believe themselves to be indestructible. At that age, it's unlikely that they have accessed enough information to be able to form an objective opinion about what the product may do to them. They are of course at an age when they're not given the freedom to choose to do other acts which may cause personal or public harm. Are libertarians arguing that this is a problem? The tobacco companies would answer in the affirmative because they are very keen to market to the non-adult population.

Klein continues:

The freedom to smoke ought to be understood as a significant token of the class of freedoms, and when it is threatened one should look instantly for what other controls are being tightened, for what other checks on freedoms are being administered. The attitude of a society toward the freedom to smoke is a test of the way it understands the rights of people at large, for at any time, a quarter to a half of all the people in the world are puffing away at cigarettes.

Unlike many nations, Australia has implemented effective public health programs which have seen the number of people smoking fall by around 50% since 1980. (While from 1980 to 2010, the total population went from 14.7 million to 22.3 million.) That is, a lot of smokers have decided that they have a right to end their addiction, as tough as that can be to do. Many of those still addicted are hoping to exercise that right in the future but are currently struggling to quit the habit that was formed when they were young.

You can read a review - Here’s Puffing at You, Kid.

Yes, "rhetorically overshooting" describes it (and a lot of your writing) very accurately.

Cheers,

Maddog.

[Supertramp]

Back a few years ago Parks were handing out 35mm camera film canisters for smokers on the Overland Track, to put their butts in, Digital cameras killed that idea !
Regards Overlandman

Those metal mint containers are the go these days

[neilmny]

You're just here for the argument aren't you maddog?

G’day neilmny,

I’m here because I am a bushwalker. As to my activity in this thread I just thought it could be livened up a bit. In finishing, Christopher Snowden, writing for Spiked, put the issue as follows:

Society finds it easy to ridicule the pointy-headed puritans and lemon-sucking prohibitionists of earlier eras, but we are peculiarly shortsighted when it comes to identifying the same scolds amongst us today. Once identified, they should be treated with the same derision and denormalisation that they dish out so freely.

He concluded that:

Whether they are well-intentioned do-gooders, sly charlatans or malevolent bigots, they must be tolerated in a civilised society, but they do not have to be suffered gladly and they should never be given the reins of power. It is time to denormalise the demagogues...

I’d have to say that I am inclined to agree.

Cheers,

Maddog.

I have no idea what that all means so I'll take that as a yes

[vicrev]

Me too........

[mrpotter]

The NSW rule is a bit ridiculous if you ask me. On an overnight hike (in between quitting times) I would probably smoke 3-4 cigarettes and have never once annoyed anyone with my smoke or left a mess. Creating this un-policeable rule just means that I'm a criminal now. It won't stop anyone who'd normally drop their butts from dropping their butts.

Oh don't be mistaken, its policeable.

RFS volunteers, and NPWS firefighters, who smoke, and a great deal of them do, are now required to request cigarette breaks, and travel outside of the park to suck down a cigarette. If caught smoking in a national park, it is grounds to have them dismissed from RFS or NPWS! Because smoking a cigarette near a bushfire or hazard reduction is a fire risk, or something

It has been mentioned on this forum that cigarette butts are a common cause of fire, however I didn't see anybody mention that these types of fires typically occur at roadsides or rubbish bins, and rarely in national parks. The real fire risk in national parks are from camp fires, and more commonly with this type of fire, death occurs (the campers) - which makes many camping types who support this legislation, quite the hypocrites.

Is this the world everybody wants to live in?

People who get irrate about smokers (and there are plenty on this thread!) should stop feeling they have entitlement to dictate the decisions of others, and rather choose to not be around smokers, as current laws extremely limit exposure anyway. Like it or not, the general public should be entitled to free will, and you'll probably disagree with most of it. Laws of physics (conservation of matter) dictate that car exhaust, visible or not, will always be far more noxious. I hope the bordering-on-voilence-anti-smoker types do wake up to themselves. I'm a non-smoker.

[walkerchris77]

Im a non smoker. And thanks to my mum smoking and drinking through pregnancy i have bad asthma. Thanks mum.
Anyway its a legal product and people have the right to use it. Just pick up your butts. And my friends that smoke always walk outside and away from me.
Both sides should show a bit of respect to each other.

It does crack me up that they are trying to ban smoking outdoors when people sit out the front of cafes in the city with a million cars going past.

[mrpotter]

Just pick up your butts.

A non-issue. How many campers can't carry their trash? I expect thats far more damaging to the environment because of the mass & occurance frequency. Always picking up wrappers for energy bars too. Maybe we should ban energy bars in national parks? Excessive energy bar consumption can lead to death, you know.

[walkerchris77]

Just pick up your butts.

A non-issue. How many campers can't carry their trash? I expect thats far more damaging to the environment because of the mass & occurance frequency. Always picking up wrappers for energy bars too. Maybe we should ban energy bars in national parks? Excessive energy bar consumption can lead to death, you know.

Lol
To much water can kill u to. Shall we ban it. Lol
I would like to see the figures on how many people have died from energy bars this year compared to deaths from smoking.

Most responsible ppl take their rubbish home. Unfortunately theres plenty of ferals out there who dont give a *&%$#!. Smokers or no smokers, energy bars eaters or not energy bar eaters.

[GPSGuided]

Excessive energy bar consumption can lead to death, you know.

Excess of anything can kill, including walking and oxygen. Ban?

[Travis22]

I'm a non smoker. If someone is about to smoke I move away, if someone is already smoking I stay away.

Travis.

[maddog]

G’day Travis,

If someone is smoking, or about to light up, you might be better to get close and stay close. Nicotine has been shown to increase intelligence. It can reduce the impact of neurodegenerative disorders. Nicotine helps rats solve problems. Even bees get a buzz.

Cheers,

Maddog.

[neilmny]

Can't swallow that one Maddog, if that were the case they would eventually be intelligent enough to
realise that all they are doing is poisoning themselves, paying way too much tax and that there is better
things to do with the money.

We go skiing most winters, people say we must be rich to afford it. It's simple, I gave up smoking.
The saving well and truly pays for the trip each year and is a whole lot better for our health.

[vicrev]

G’day Travis,

If someone is smoking, or about to light up, you might be better to get close and stay close. Nicotine has been shown to increase intelligence. It can reduce the impact of neurodegenerative disorders. Nicotine helps rats solve problems. Even bees get a buzz.

Cheers,

Maddog.

Rats & Bees smoking,.......Wow,I suppose they think the earth is flat as well ,according to the Book of Noddy & the Flower Pot Men (Book 3 Chapter 7) It is so.......I must go & see my Doc & get a nice fix of Nicotine (I think he does a milk shake ,Nic flavoured).......This post of mine is absolute crap,sorry, I have done the research,it just turned out this way.........

[walkerchris77]

Can't swallow that one Maddog, if that were the case they would eventually be intelligent enough to
realise that all they are doing is poisoning themselves, paying way too much tax and that there is better
things to do with the money.

We go skiing most winters, people say we must be rich to afford it. It's simple, I gave up smoking.
The saving well and truly pays for the trip each year and is a whole lot better for our health.

+1

[maddog]

G’day Neilmny,

As I understand it the proposition is not that the most intelligent people necessarily smoke, but that smoking makes a person more intelligent. As an example, it would be quite possible for a dullard to take up smoking, become more intelligent as a result, and then quit smoking only to become a dullard again. In such a case the dullard has swapped higher intelligence for the hope of longer life.

On the cost of smoking. George Orwell would arrive at parties with only one cigarette that he would generously offer to friends. On seeing that he had only one, his friends would refuse his offer and press their own on him. In this way Orwell could puff away all night and on his return home still have one left to enjoy in bed. Even in Orwell’s day, smoking was expensive.

But remember passive smoking is free. Hence my advice - get close and stay close to the smoker.

Back to cigarette butts. Albert Einstein, a keen pipe smoker who believed that 'pipe smoking contributes to a somewhat calm and objective judgement in all human affairs', picked them up off the street and smoked them in his pipe.

Cheers,

Maddog.

[vicrev]

G’day Neilmny,

As I understand it the proposition is not that the most intelligent people necessarily smoke, but that smoking makes a person more intelligent. As an example, it would be quite possible for a dullard to take up smoking, become more intelligent as a result, and then quit smoking only to become a dullard again. In such a case the dullard has swapped higher intelligence for the hope of longer life.

On the cost of smoking. George Orwell would arrive at parties with only one cigarette that he would generously offer to friends. On seeing that he had only one, his friends would refuse his offer and press their own on him. In this way Orwell could puff away all night and on his return home still have one left to enjoy in bed. Even in Orwell’s day, smoking was expensive.

But remember passive smoking is free. Hence my advice - get close and stay close to the smoker.

Back to cigarette butts. Albert Einstein, a keen pipe smoker who believed that 'pipe smoking contributes to a somewhat calm and objective judgement in all human affairs', picked them up off the street and smoked them in his pipe.

Cheers,

Maddog.

[stry]

Can't swallow that one Maddog, if that were the case they would eventually be intelligent enough to
realise that all they are doing is poisoning themselves, paying way too much tax and that there is better
things to do with the money.

We go skiing most winters, people say we must be rich to afford it. It's simple, I gave up smoking.
The saving well and truly pays for the trip each year and is a whole lot better for our health.

+1

+ 2

Butts are litter. Many smokers don't seem to regard them as such. Just pick em up. Whatever the significance is of other litter doesn't change these facts.

Move On

[north-north-west]

Nicotine has been shown to increase intelligence. It can reduce the impact of neurodegenerative disorders. Nicotine helps rats solve problems. Even bees get a buzz.

Oh, OK. Let's ignore the fact that it has so many negative impacts on health - such as lung & heart diseases - and use it to bump up our mental activity. That makes so much sense. Live fast and die young, right?

[walkerchris77]

Mmmmm this *&^%$#@! good. Just need a beer

[GPSGuided]

Nicotine has been shown to increase intelligence. It can reduce the impact of neurodegenerative disorders. Nicotine helps rats solve problems. Even bees get a buzz.

LOL! Other neuro stimulants have similar "positive" effects too. In any case, smoking is hardly just about nicotine, unless one is so narrow minded and can't see the full picture. Smoking involves the inhalation of numerous other chemicals, many with serious and documented negative health effects. It's just laughable that one would try to justify smoking using such data.

[maddog]

Cat smoking and drinking after lunch.

Smoking Cat.jpg (38.19 KiB) Viewed 23699 times