deer control

[wayno]

so, i'm completely ignorant of the status of deer in aus
but in NZ they are widespread and in high numbers through the NZ bush and devastate the forest/
basically any deer is fair game to be shot anywhere in the wild year round. yet i keep seeing hunting shows and hunters talking about leaving deer alone especially the stags until they have antlers that are big enough for their liking.
zero acknowledgement of the need to control deer numbers, just the need to get the nice trophies...
or if they wont shoot it if they think they are too far from the road to be bothered carrying it.
i darent raise this on NZ forums it would be just starting a war....
am i wrong, are deer hunters just as interested in conservation?
what sparked this thought was a video interview with David attenborough who considers environmentalism a duty. but it seems that is lost on so many hunters. i cant help but wonder if i went out shooting all the deer i saw with other hunters they'd want to lynch me

[north-north-west]

If you get rid of the deer, the hunters won't have anything to hunt. So no, they aren't interested in making major inroads on the population, although many justify their activity as being a useful control mechanism and I have no doubt most would object to my sweeping generalisations.

Far as I'm concerned any feral animal or plant is fair game, at any time. As long as the hunters make *&%$#! sure they don't hurt people or native animals.

[Strider]

NNW the NZ deer population is so big I doubt any recreational hunters would ever put a significant dent in it. On top of deer there is also pigs, chamois and tahr to hunt.

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[wayno]

recreational hunters wont dent the deer population but they certainly wont dent the population doing what i've seen them doing on various hunting shows, just staring at deer and seldom shooting at them, it helps with ever deer that can be shot
i understand some hunters consider it a waste to shoot an animal when you arent taking the meat from it. and often they dont want to carry the meat.

[Tony]

Feral Deer in some states in Australia have the same protection as our native animals and are a major pest in some areas. Here is a very good article about pest deer and the problems Deer hunters cause on the Conversation site https://theconversation.com/the-protected-pest-deer-in-australia-11452

It does not take a lot of research to realise that Deer Hunting organisations are a major cause of the Feral deer problem here.

Tony

[north-north-west]

Feral Deer in some states in Australia have the same protection as our native animals and are a major pest in some areas. Here is a very good article about pest deer and the problems Deer hunters cause on the Conversation site https://theconversation.com/the-protected-pest-deer-in-australia-11452

It does not take a lot of research to realise that Deer Hunting organisations are a major cause of the Feral deer problem here.

Spot on.

[Hallu]

There's a weird mentality of "let's preserve our pioneer history" in NZ, Australia or the US. That means protecting feral animals such as horses and deers. As an outsider, I've always believed that native fauna & flora should come first. Shooting those animals ain't fun, but it has to be done. You can always bring back the horses and the deers. You can't bring back the extinct native species. In Australia, if the horses and deers were eradicated, hunters could always hunt native game. The problem with NZ is that they don't have much native game. They have fish and birds, that's it. So that must be an additional reason why they don't want the deer gone...

As for "making a dent" in the population, I don't see why it can't be done. Give a reward for each head, and it'll be done. The Americans wiped out the bison from their land, the French wiped out mountain goats such as chamois and ibex, so yeah it can be done, even with shy animals in mountainous places. You just need a government incentive or something.

[Strider]

NZ has no native game. The only native mammals are a couple of bats.

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[WarrenH]

About five years ago I was heading North along the Snowy when I came across a large stag at the Nine Mile Pinch. The stag was huge.

When I returned home, I tried to explained to my wife Helen, what I had seen. I can remember saying to her then, and again recently, ..."it was so tall, it's antlers would have shredded our gyprock ceilings."

This Christmas just past, I painted my Christmas cards from the photo that I took of the beast.

So, a Merry Belated Christmas ... to you all.



A few times each year, I'm the caretaker of an alternate energy farm and a wildlife reserve, when the owners need a break. Out on on the Eastern Foreshores of Googong Dam on the edge of the Taliesen Hills in NSW. Never a day goes by when I've been there, that a herd of deer hasn't come for a drink, in one of the top ponds near the house. There are two noisy dogs on the property and they know when the herd is coming. They're noisy, well in advance. And, the deer don't give two hoots about the dogs hassling them. Often there are fawns with the herd and they are kept well away from the dogs, until the dogs settle-down. The two dogs get bored fairly quickly, and retreat, most likely from being put to shame. The dogs are totally ineffectual as guard dogs. But, I like them.

Warren.

PS, The world is one massive changing artifact, that no one has control of. No matter how much the Prods' pretend that they have. I say, live and let live.

[north-north-west]

'Prods'?

[Cauchs]

Wayno, so far in Aus, deer numbers are yet to have the same explosion as that which occurred in NZ. It's not to say it couldn't happen but they just haven't thrived in the same way here (with the exception of small localised areas, generally on private property).

What you see on TV isn't necessarily a true representation of how most hunts play out. After all, a "hunting" show where they just shoot everything they see probably wouldn't rate so well.

Deer here. particularly Sambar were very thin on the ground in years gone past. They had their localised populations and were treated as a scarce resource. Now days you will find a sambar in most systems in the vic alps however the respect for the animal and traditional ethics of utilising the kill has remained which I certainly don't think is a bad thing. Shooting large numbers of deer and leaving them where they lie wherever meat couldn't be recovered would have its drawbacks also. And I would suggest there would be far more people who would have more complaints about this than those above suggesting hunters aren't doing enough. Sambar are also less of a herd animal than many of those found in NZ so their impacts aren't as concentrated and destructive. (However we do still have herds of Fallow and Reds which are more concentrated in areas)

I have personally worked with a number of land holders to help them control their deer numbers. One in particular has the requirement that every bit of meat be utilised. I am happy to comply with this and shoot and butcher as many as I possibly can and provide meat for friends and family as well as a few people who sometimes struggle to make ends meet. In doing this we have been able to control the deer to a number acceptable to the owner.

It's a complicated issue. People want the deer gone however the government is locking hunters out of areas rather than allowing them access to additional areas. If the deer were classed as pests then our current regulations would prevent us from hunting them in any National Parks. I for one would certainly not want to see them poisoned as it is a horrible painful death.

You are right, hunters don't want the deer eradicated as they are seen as a resource however I would support management in sensitive areas.

[wayno]

cheers for that, very informative

[maddog]

In NSW the regulations restricting the hunting of deer are as follows (DPI):

Deer hunting regulations

When hunting deer, hunters must not use:
spotlights, artificial lights (including infrared devices) or electronic devices that enhance vision or hearing
sights that project a beam or recorded sounds
baits, lures, decoys or live animals (except deer callers and planted crops)
an aircraft, watercraft or motor vehicle.

Other special conditions on deer hunting include:
deer may only be hunted during daylight hours (from half an hour before sunrise up to half an hour after sunset)
dogs may only be used to locate, point or flush deer and must not chase the deer. Scent trailing hounds are not permitted to be used in NSW
a person hunting alone may use one dog to hunt deer or a group may use up to two dogs to hunt deer.

Deer seasons

Some species of deer have specific times of the year when they breed. Hunting at these times is restricted due to an increased likelihood of animal welfare concerns.

The following seasons apply to deer hunting in NSW.

Fallow, Red and Wapiti deer 1 March to 31 October
Hog deer 1 April to 30 April only
Chital, Sambar and Rusa deer All year

It seems odd that we maintain deer hunting seasons, and prohibit the use of baiting, out of concern for 'animal welfare', whilst we have no such concern for other intelligent and social animals that are shot, baited, and trapped at any time as the need arises (e.g. dogs, cats, pigs and rats).

From a rural perspective, this article in the Land is worth a read. Feral deer spread cattle ticks and compete for feed. Perhaps if we are to maintain this charade it is time for the true cost to the community to be reflected in the price of hunting licences. Recreational deer hunters have been enjoying a free lunch for far too long now.

Cheers,

Maddog.

[north-north-west]

It seems odd that we maintain deer hunting seasons, and prohibit the use of baiting, out of concern for 'animal welfare', whilst we have no such concern for other intelligent and social animals that are shot, baited, and trapped at any time as the need arises (e.g. dogs, cats, pigs and rats).

Indeed.

[Cauchs]

It does not take a lot of research to realise that Deer Hunting organisations are a major cause of the Feral deer problem here.
Tony

I am really not sure how hunters can be held responsible for the feral deer problem. Yes they were the ones who initially released them however many populations are the result of illegal releases by deer farmers. Hunters/farmers are the only ones who do anything to reduce the populations.

Organisations like the ADA have also been working with Parks Vic on culling programs such as the one at Yellingbow in Victoria which have been hailed as a success.

I don't necessarily agree with the comment that hunting licenses should reflect the cost of deer to the community? Why should hunters be paying more than they already are for this? If the costs got too high, many would simply not see the worth in obtaining a permit and give up hunting deer.

I think Vic have found the sweet spot with their regulations. No seasons (except those to keep hunters out of national parks at busy periods) hunting with hounds allowed and they have made available the option of spotlighting without too much red tape and paperwork (a hunter simply needs written consent from a land owner).

[Turfa]

It does not take a lot of research to realise that Deer Hunting organisations are a major cause of the Feral deer problem here.
Tony

I am really not sure how hunters can be held responsible for the feral deer problem. Yes they were the ones who initially released them however many populations are the result of illegal releases by deer farmers. Hunters/farmers are the only ones who do anything to reduce the populations.......

The goal of hunting organisations is to maintain deer populations, not eradicate them. I am all for hunting of deer, but remove the restrictions such as bag limits & hunting seasons, and let the hunters take out as many as possible.

[maddog]

Gday Cauchs,

Given that there is little doubt than hunters have made a significant contribution to the spread of these animals, which combined with arcane laws protecting deer as ‘game’ have allowed numbers to reach plague proportions, all for the benefit of hunters, it would seem perfectly reasonable that the significant costs to agriculture and the environment be reflected in the price of licences. Why should others incur these costs to allow you a free lunch?

Of course you are correct when you say an increase in the cost of a licence would reduce demand, but that’s not really a problem when you think about it. It may even help us deal with the issue. While the sensible approach would be to immediately reclassify feral deer as ‘pest’ animals it is worth considering who might object. Any suggestions?

Cheers,

Maddog.

[Cauchs]

Perhaps there is a misclose in our point of view due to the fact it appears you are referring to NSW regs and I am speaking from a Victorian point of view. Down here declaring deer a pest would have zero impact on their management. The classification has no relevance without someone (the government?!) having both the will and the funding to do something. As it stands the only programs in place rely solely on hunting organisations.

You are correct that organisations traditionally were quite protective if the deer populations however their approach has evolved with deer numbers and they are now very open in saying they need some form of control.

I am yet to see conclusive evidence that hunters aid the spread of animals. There are conflicting studies arguing each way however I don't believe either side has presented reliable evidence.

In the absence of hunters, deer numbers could only be higher than what they currently are. While hunting may not be solving the problem, it is certainly the only thing helping at this point.

[sambar358]

Some interesting comments on a complex issue......Cauchs makes some good points from the hunters perspective and I understand the comments from some who see the deer as an environmental danger that needs addressing. We have gone well past eradication by around 100 years......this will never happen and the best that can be hoped for is some form of control to at least manage numbers in some areas to some degree.....nothing will eradicate Australias deer and they are here to stay ! Our deer herds are a product of an era 150 years ago when governments encouraged the release of all sorts of animals from the "mother country" to give the new Australia a more familiar feel.....and like it or not most of what was released via various Acclimitisation Societies and early settlers proved to be detremental in various ways to our environment and/or the native birds, animals and plants within.

Making a comparison with the NZ sitiuation and their approach to deer management compared to the AU deer situation is a bit onerous....NZ still have very strong deer numbers across both islands and despite 50 years of full-on "war" against the deer initially using 1000's of paid government employed "shoot 'em and leave 'em to rot" ground shooters in the '60's & '70's then transitioning into a large scale commercial government subsidised commercial enterprise invovling the aerial helicopter shooting of countless tens of 1000's of mainly red deer over a number of decades to supply the European demand for wild-shot venison.....the NZ deer never approached anything near eradication. Control and reduced numbers in some areas for a period of years most certainly.....but once the commercial trade declined and the cost of running large numbers of million-dollar helicopters on deer shooting exercises became uneconomical the "deer wars" ended......and the deer remained. NZ also uses most of the worlds 1080 poison and isn't backward in saturation bombing their forests with 1080 in an attempt to keep on top of the deer.......do we want that here as well ? Hopefully not.....I suspect that with large-scale 1080 usage in AU the solution may be far worse that the perceived "problem".

Certainly these days the state governments in the "deer states" of SA, TAS, VIC, NSW & QLD are more aware of the deer and are making some sort of effort at addressing localised management issues with them but essentially these are just token efforts conducted short-term and infrequently and are more "feel good" exercises to demonstrate "well at least we're tyring" rather than having any real long-term impact on deer numbers across the board. Victoria has the most liberal approach to deer hunting of the states by allowing hunting by stalking in parts of the Alpine National Park and various other state parks and forests but there are huge areas that (and always have been) are out-of-bounds to any form of hunting and these of course are virtual deer sanctuaries where animal numbers can build-up and re-populate other areas and keep numbers overall high. Victoria has also assisted land owners to control deer on their private land by reducing the red-tape involved in managing the deer on their land and allowing the use of various control methods including spotlighting that are not permitted outside the confines of private land.

By comparison NSW and QLD are doing very little if anything at all......very restricted and quite recent access to limited hunting on public land, no hunting in Parks and the deer are responding to that lack of state-wide pressure of course by increasing their numbers dramatically and extending their ranges in all directions largely unchecked. While it might be OK for government departments to bleat about their building deer numbers and try and blame outside sources (hunter releases) for this the facts show that the deer are very mobile animlas and quite capable of moving into new country in their own time and their own way. For example.......sambar and now well-entrenched deep into NSW and certainly well beyond Sydney.....& they weren't released into these areas by deer hunters.....they got there on their own 4 hooves from a few initial releases around Melbourne 150 years ago and will continue to push northwards and I expect in another 100 years sambar will be all along the east coast right to the tip of the pointy bit and beyond !

Hunters are doing their bit in Victoria managing the deer numbers where they are permitted to hunt.....a govt-conducted survey 2 years ago determined that around 60,000 deer (mostly sambar) were killed by licenced deer hunters in Vic that year and given the current boom in deer hunter numbers currently at 30,000 in Vic and building at around 10% PA I would expect that the deer taken in 2014 & 2015 to have been greater than the 60,000 tally of 2013 and it will continue to grow as hunter numbers build. By comparison the deer taken by recreational hunters in NSW and QLD would be low because their hunters have minimal public land to hunt and the chances of this altering significantly in the near future minimal is I'd think. And of course government departments are doing very little to manage the deer in these states as well and that won't change anytime soon either.

Many factors contribute to the increase in sambar deer numbers but one of the most significant has been the damage caused to our forests by wild fire events since 2003 and while these severe fire events razed millions of Ha of forests what they also did was provide the perfect environment for the deer in the form of abundant new growth to feed on and then once the forests thickened-up with the re-growth much of it was too thick to hunt and will remain that way for generations. Post 2003 sambar numbers have exploded and despite 1000's no-doubt being killed in these fires plenty beat the flames and have benefited from the abundance of feed and cover since. Remember that sambar hinds can at the most only produce a maximum of 3 calves every 2 years and they don't have "litters" although twins have been recorded they are very rare. So it's been a gradual build-up over 150 years and from when I started hunting sambar in the early '70's just seeing one or two a year let alone shooting one was a major win.....these days if you don't see 3-4 in a casual few hours wander in good country then you're not looking too hard ! Along with the explosion of feed following our bushfires has been another "explosion" of sorts......Parks......lots of Parks where hunting is not permitted or the re-classification of land status to prevent hunting or limit deer hunting to certain methods and during certain times of the year which has also significantly restricted access and therefore deer harvest numbers by hunters.

Apart from hog deer (Australia has the only wild herd of hog deer outside their native range in Sri Lanka where they are classed as endangered) our other 5 deer species are largely un-regulated in regards to bag limits in Vic, NSW & Qld. Tasmania has only fallow deer and the majority of the Tassie fallow are on private land and can be hunted via a one month season in March then generous culling permits are issued to licenced hunters on private land over the winter for the shooting of significant numbers of does and antlerless deer. NSW has a short closed season over the summer for only their red & fallow deer but no other restrictions in regards to numbers than can be shot and in Vic we have no deer hunting in the ANP for 2 months from Dec 15 - Feb 15 whilst visitor numbers are high in these areas. Apart from that (if you are deer-licenced in Vic or NSW) you can shoot as many as you like and if you feel so inclined you can leave them where they fall and go shoot some more ! Even this is a double-edge sword though as deer hunters are sometimes criticised for not removing the whole carcass from the bush as it is suggested by these critics that leaving part of the deer carcass behind is contributing to the wild dog problem....a view that I do not share I hasten to add. So while some may applaud hunters for mowing as many down as they can and leaving them to rot.....we also get criticised from some circles if we do that......damned if we do & damned if we don't ! So do we shoot every one we come across and leave them to stink up the Park and feed the wild dogs.....or do we shoot just one animal, retrieve what we can in the way of venison from the bush to justify the kill (and feed our families) but in doing so maybe not have much of an impact on the numbers of deer across their range ?

Personally.....last year I shot 10 sambar deer comprising 3 mature stags, 4 hinds and 3 calves, 5 fallow deer and 2 hog deer during the April season.......this is about average for me and most of my hunting mates do much the same each year. I mostly hunt sambar and spend around 60-70 days a year in the mountains.....most years I see several hundred sambar and would have shot opportunities on probably half of those. I take only animals that I can utilise as I respect the animal and justify my kill by making the effort to retrieve the venison from the bush. While I am not required by law to do so I make that effort because I believe that the taking of the life of that animal should be acknowledged by the effort of retrieval and using the venison. My belief is that this view point is shared by the vast majority of serious deer hunters and that in a nutshell is what the deer hunting organisations promote......respect for the animal, the bush and other users of the land.

Collectively deer hunters are making a significant contribution to deer control......and in the absence of anything else it is making some sort of an impact but realistically forget about eradication......we have never eradicated any of our introduced fauna or flaura and never will.......the deer are here to stay so we might as well just accept that and see them as just another critter that we may encounter on our wanders just like the 'roos, wallabies, echidnas and wombats. Cheers

s358

[maddog]

Gday Cauchs,

You don’t have to look very hard to find evidence of the contribution of hunters to the spread of feral deer in Australia. Try, for example, Moriarty (2004). The liberation, distribution, abundance and management of wild deer in Australia

From the abstract:

Deer species (fallow, red, sambar, chital, rusa and hog deer) have formed wild populations in Australian habitats ranging from arid woodland to rainforest and are a growing management issue. Data were obtained via an Australia-wide land-manager survey that collected information on the liberation, distribution, abundance and management of wild deer in Australia. It is estimated that there are 218 wild deer herds in Australia with 7% of these herds originating from acclimatisation society releases, 35% from deer farm escapes/releases and 58% from translocations (deliberate releases). On average, herds released by acclimatisation societies are estimated to be 107 years old, herds that have escaped from (or been released from) deer farms are 9 years old, and transplanted herds are 6 years old. It is estimated that Australia currently has 200 000 wild deer, with 85% of these deer originally released by acclimatisation societies, 6% through escapes/releases from deer farms and 9% by translocation…

Historically acclimatisation societies released deer for their aesthetic qualities and for hunting. More recently the main problem has become translocation with over half of all herds in Australia resulting from this illegal activity. On translocations, Moriarty (2004) provides:

The translocation of deer and other feral animals into secluded areas such as state forests, national parks and catchment lands for hunting purposes has taken place in Australia since the early 1900s (McKnight 1974). Until the 1980s this practice was limited by the availability of feral animals and farm stock for release…However, the use of more effective control measures for feral animals by land managers (Olsen 1998) and the consequent lack of feral animals to hunt in some areas of Australia has resulted in the dramatic increase of this practice over the last 10 years (Low 1999).

It is also worth noting that the two States that have the biggest problem with feral deer are the two States that protect the species as ‘game’ animals, NSW and Victoria, with 44% and 23% of the herds respectively.

So it is true that hunters have made a substantial contribution to feral deer populations across Australia. But if the aim is to control populations and distribution, recreational hunters are not really helping much are they.

Cheers,

Maddog.

[north-north-west]

I take only animals that I can utilise as I respect the animal and justify my kill by making the effort to retrieve the venison from the bush. While I am not required by law to do so I make that effort because I believe that the taking of the life of that animal should be acknowledged by the effort of retrieval and using the venison. My belief is that this view point is shared by the vast majority of serious deer hunters and that in a nutshell is what the deer hunting organisations promote......respect for the animal, the bush and other users of the land.

It's a pity that respect for the deer outweighs respect for the bush and its native inhabitants.
Personally, I'd rather that hunters killed anything feral whenever there was an opportunity to do so safely.

But thanks for all the info.

[sambar358]

NNW.....you sell me any most deer hunters a bit short I think. To be a successful deer hunter you need to walk IN the bush and not THROUGH it and when you master that skill you certainly start to notice things in the environment that many would miss. You won't see me posting images of some plant,animal, footprint or scat on forums asking "what is this ?".....the majority of good deer hunters would know what it was without asking someone else to ID it. To be a successful hunter you need to notice the little things in the bush....the flit of a bird (or was it an ear ?) the subtle changes of the colours or slight movements, you look around and you pay attention as the deer don't stand there in the open with flashing lights attached to them. So in doing so you immerse yourself in the environment and try to blend-in and you certainly absorb and appreciate all that is before you.

Deer are and will certainly continue to have an impact on our environment as do most other things including us of course.....to what degree they are varies depending on who you talk to. From my point-of-view the ferals that are having the greatest impact on our native wildlife are the introduced carnivores.....cats, foxes and feral dogs as these are literally eating our small mammals and birds into extinction and each year if given the opportunity I shoot a few cats, plenty of foxes and the occasional wild dog and I'm sure other deer hunters do the same. This is a complex issue and there's no quick-fix, no magic potion or spell to cast to make them all go away. To date our state governments seem to have acknowledged that there is a problem in some areas with building deer numbers and I'll certainly acknowledge that.....but when it comes to the DO SOMETHING bit they all seem to be found wanting until it's too late to do anything about it.

Even deer hunting in Parks is a complex issue.....while deer hunting is a (reluctantly) recognised approved recreational activity by Parks Vic and the state government we as hunters are only permitted to shoot deer within those portions of the part that permit hunting. So NO FERAL HUNTING at all.....just deer ! And while I'll make an exception to this with feral cats in doing so I'm breaking the law in regard to killing essentially a "protected species" in the Park.....the same of course applies to foxes, wild dogs, goats and feral pigs......all unable to be shot if encountered by a licenced deer hunter during the prescribed deer hunting season in a hunting area within the Park. And by declaring deer as "feral" they then enter the "protected species" realm like the fox, cat and wild dog etc within the hunting Parks as the deer then no longer become a regulated game species. So no real point in going down that road really.....all that will do is ban all forms of hunting from Parks......which may be seen as a good thing for some.....but the deer will remain totally unchecked of course ! As I said....a complex issue and one unfortunately with no quick-fix. Cheers

s358

[north-north-west]

Not selling you short at all, S358. I have known a fair few hunters and am well aware of your abilities, knowledge and understanding.
What I meant was that - to me - respecting the bush means putting ITS needs ahead of mine (yes, I know, not to the point where I will forgo my walking in order to protect these places from the impact of my presence,although I do what I can to minimise that impact). Ferals harm the native ecosystems. Hard-hooved animals in alpine and sub-alpine areas are a major threat, especially to the more sensitive zones and species. Reducing their number will do more overall good than harm, so I'd prefer to see you killing as many as possible rather than cherishing the interaction.

I agree that the governments in question - both state and federal - need to change both definitions and regulations in regard to feral species. But there seem to be too many special interest lobby groups to get that done.

(ps: by 'feral' I mean non-native.)

[wayno]

various introduced animals down under do not belong in the eco system and the eco system would be far better off if those animals were completely removed from the eco system.
various grazing animals that in their normal eco system would have predators naturally controlling their population are now where there are no effective predators controlling their no's
various forests in NZ are dying from the activity of introduces species. and so many hunting groups claim there is no problem,, all they care about is maintaining the status quo in their hobby with zero interest in the damage being done to the plants and landscape. and it would be so easy for them to shoot more animals.
david attenborough has said "environmentalism is a duty, not an interest"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NabcyTqJRXk

i've been told by hunters that non hunters have no right whatsoever to comment on what hunters do in the outdoors., its none of my business.

aussies dont think of possums as a threat, but introduced NZ they do horrendous damage to the bush, our vegetation is far ore easily digested here as a lot of it hasnt been historically eaten and hasnt developed any resistance to browsing animals, possums treat our forest like a smorgasbord and go for specific trees which are their favourites, selectively destroying all of a specific tree type in an area, then they move on to the no two favourite tree flavour and do the same.

[davidf]

i always think that we here treat carp as a pest and release trout. both feral. sure carp are the bad boys but....

[maddog]

G’day Wayno,

Australia is incredibly rich in endemic flora and fauna, but it would be a mistake to think that introduced animals are always a threat to its biodiversity (or more broadly its ‘ecosystem’). The simplistic opinion that introduced animals do not belong and therefore cause damage is one rarely held by those well informed in current ecological thought. The more sophisticated view is that each particular case must be viewed on its own merits, what is bad in one area may be good in another, the problem can be native or introduced, and that good policy cannot be based on ill-informed prejudice alone.

To return to the subject of hunters, despite their apparent desire to be seen as the last heroic line of defence protecting our native fauna and flora from predation and deprivation by ‘ferals’, there is little evidence or reason to support such claims. But that is not to say the activity of hunting is necessarily damaging. In most cases recreational hunters are largely benign, in rare cases they may do some good, much like a bushwalker who collects litter, and it is their right to enjoy our shared public lands as much as it is ours.

To accommodate hunters, as an example, in NSW we have an excellent national parks hunting program, allowing the targeted culling of introduced species in areas they are a problem, within a supervised and regulated system that ensures the safety of the broader public is not put at risk. This program has been embraced by the Sporting Shooters Association of NSW and been accepted as a reasonable compromise by other park users (who had previously held sincere concerns regarding public safety and the loss of amenity). Time will tell whether or not the program can be justified on a cost-benefit basis.

The real issue, as previously identified by Tony, is the protected status of ‘game’ animals such as deer. By prohibiting effective control techniques such as aerial culling, spotlighting, etc., by imposing hunting seasons, and preventing ‘non-residents’ from culling on private land without 'game' licences, the hunting lobby has succeeded in exacerbating problems in order to perpetuate their sport, allowing herds of feral deer to grow and their distribution to spread. Thankfully, in NSW at least, the Shooters and Fishers appear to be losing their influence. The perjury matter is due in Downing Centre local court on February 4.

The solution is simple, deer need to be reclassified as ‘pest’ species and dealt with by adequately funded professionals and land managers, using effective techniques, in those areas where it can be reliably demonstrated there are genuine environmental or agricultural problems (i.e. not just a prejudicial hunch). Those that resist this reclassification in defence of their sport are acting against conservation and agriculture.

Cheers,

Maddog.

[Tony]

Well written Maddog, +1.

It is interesting to read the Australian Deer Association Inc-Mission and Objectives, it is all about improving Deer hunting, the natural environment comes in very low the Deer Association's priorities.

Tony

Mission and Objectives

Australian Deer Association Inc – Mission Statement

In pursuit of the key objective of the Association, the improvement of the status of deer in Australia, we strive for appropriate management of all free roaming deer populations in Australia.

To promote the safe, responsible and ethical pursuit of deer hunting and its acceptance by the community, undertaken by members who seek an environmentally sustainable experience in accordance with the ADA code of conduct.

Australian Deer Association Inc – Objectives

The improvement of the status of deer in Australia,

The promotion of research into the habits of deer; and the scientific study of deer in Australia and their relationship to the Australian environment,

The promotion, application and publication of the methods of management and control of deer whether semi-domesticated or wild,

The retention and improvement of habitat for deer and other wildlife, particularly by encouraging governments to pass legislation and make regulations based on sound management principles,

The preservation, and where appropriate the generating of deer hunting as a legiti- mate sport,

The preservation and extension of public access to the Australian bushland for recrea- tional use, and the encouragement of such use,

The preservation of the environment,

The education of hunters in the safe handling of firearms, and,

The personal adoption by members of the Association’s Code

[sambar358]

Some good responses once again....and I'll go back to the NZ/AU comparison in regards to deer. I've hunted and fished in NZ quite a few times and am pretty familiar with their forest access situations and the attitude to deer & hunters from NZ government departments like DOC. NZ and AU are chalk and cheese when it comes to allowing deer hunting on public land.....almost all NZ public land is available for deer hunting and DOC encourage hunting in most areas by building huts, constructing landing strips for fixed wing aircraft and helicopter pads throughout the mountains so hunters can access areas too remote and difficult to reach on foot. So DOC are actively encouraging hunters to get into the back country and shoot the deer.....and after this is done it is quite legal in NZ to remove the carcasses and sell them thru various game processors or butchers. NZ has a positive attitude towards hunters and hunting and encourages hunters to get into the bush and harvest plenty of animals thus assisting in the control of their deer numbers. In addition to this DOC also encourages commercial helicopter shooting of deer and the NZ government is supportive in the maintaining of a viable international market for their wild-shot game and other deer-related bi-products and this further adds to the control of NZ's introduced herbivores.....their deer, tahr and chamois.

In a a nutshell.....the AU situation is quite the opposite ! Hunters have very limited access to public land.....there many no-hunting National Parks with rapidly building deer numbers, no hunting in state forests in Qld and restricted state forest hunting in NSW.....so here we have the perfect situation for deer build-ups without any means of legal hunting control. AU actually discourages access to much public land and this works against hunters.....huge areas of public land where hunting is not permitted, lengthy seasonal road closure networks in deer country, large areas of wilderness with no track access at all, helicopter access totally forbidden on public land, even the use of a saddle or pack horse heavily restricted in Parks, selling of wild-shot venison prohibited and there is no commercial meat processing of wild-shot deer. Australia has no international or domestic market for wild shot venison like NZ so hunters are not encouraged to embrace this option which would encourage more deer to be shot and retrieved. So what NZ does so well in regards to their deer and hunting.....AU is exactly the opposite......and who has the deer problem ?

Contrary to what many seem to think AU doesn't have a large army of "professional shooters" just waiting to be called-up to handle the deer-menace, we don't have the large numbers of private helicopter operators who would embrace aerial shooting like NZ has and we certainly don't have state or federal govenments prepared to invest the huge amounts of money needed over the long term to address the deer issue as was done in NZ. And what we also don't have.....is the NZ deer situation to allow effective ground and aerial culling....we have different deer species in totally different (mostly bush) situations....quite different to the herding NZ red deer in the open tops above the bushline which made them very suitable for large-scale aerial shooting from helicopters. NZ is also the worlds largest user of 1080 poison and DOC are not backward in coming forward with saturation bombing of their forests with 1080 to kill the deer (and everything else as well).....it is also unlikely that AU will go down the 1080 path as well as it would surely heavily impact on much of our wildlife and be more damaging than the current problem.

So.....the deer issue is a complex one and I certainly don't have any solutions. It's symplistic to just blame hunters for all this......our deer have a history going back 150 years and they are not a recent addition to our environment as some seem to think. Sure....there have been plenty of deer releases accross SA, VIC, NSW & QLD in more recent times......but not just by hunters either. We once had a fledgling deer farming industry which had 10's of 1000's of mostly red and fallow deer behind wire....by-and-large these farms failed to establish viable markets for venison and other deer products and most went to the wall. In lots of cases their fencing was unsuitable and animals were always escaping into the wild.....so unintentianal releases.....and then when their ventures failed many just let their animals (which were now worth nothing) out into the bush to save them the expense of trucking them off for pet food. If we could overlay a map of where all the failed deer farms were in SA, VIC, NSW and QLD and compare that to those areas that are now experiencing a flush of deer numbers I think that'd clarify the bigger piucture a bit too. Interesting too that most of our "new" deer herds are of the two species that were most common with the deer farmers.....red & fallow !

At the moment the two key AU deer hunting organisations(ADA & SSAA) are working with Parks in VIC and NSW to help address some of their deer issues and that's a good thing as at least it's a co-operative effort between a government organisation and hunting groups to work towards a common goal. But these efforts are very low-level and are only addressing small and isolated situations that may be improved in the short term.....they are not state-wide and they are not something that will have an impact on "the big picture" at all. Most are very supervision intensive by Parks and likely very expensive to administer and it'd be unlikely (given the low returns for dollars spent) that these efforts would be expanded enough to make a difference across the entire deer range which is huge.....and getting bigger. Other options like government funded large-scale aerial shooting would be unlikely due to the huge cost involved (think several $1000 dollars an hour to run ONE helciopter plus crew costs), we have no wild-shot venison industry and are unlikely to ever have one, it's unlikely that state govenments will do a rapid turn-around and expand hunting opportunities to many areas that are now holding large numbers of deer but have been closed to hunting and we certainly have no army of professional hunters on-call to handle the deer problem.....and if we did.....would the state governments foot the bill ?

I'm like most others....without a real solution because simply-put....there is none...or certainly none that would result in eradication. Some such as vastly improved access for hunting and opening-up more currently-closed areas for deer hunting may allow a level of control in some areas over the longer term...but again our govenments seem very reluctant to even embrace that concept. Finally.....I'll just go back to my view that : in the absence of anything else, recreational deer hunting is removing a lot of deer (60,000+ annually in Vic alone) out of the bush and while govenments and others sit back and just wring their hands and do nothing at least hunters are getting out there and knocking plenty over. Maybe if there were more places to hunt......we'd all managed to knock ever more over ! Cheers

s358

[north-north-west]

Good stuff, s358.

One other factor I think you've missed: Australia is a lot bigger. It takes a lot more time, money and effort to achieve any sort of feral animal control given the country they have to cover.

[jindydiver]

Gday Cauchs,

You don’t have to look very hard to find evidence of the contribution of hunters to the spread of feral deer in Australia. Try, for example, Moriarty (2004). The liberation, distribution, abundance and management of wild deer in Australia

From the abstract:

This paper is evidence of where some people think deer came from, nothing more.
If you read the actual paper you would find that the estimates for the number of wild deer herds and their origins were determined by sending out a survey form to land managers (farmers and rangers mostly) asking them for their opinion on where the deer came from. Opinion has never been a very solid base on which to build knowledge and Andrew Moriarty regularly bemoans the fact that his work is misrepresented as the definitive statement on where deer come from.