Electric cars for Fossil cars

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Electric cars for Fossil cars

Postby newhue » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 7:35 pm

You know I read this [url]https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/sep/23/existing-coal-oil-and-gas-fields-will-blow-carbon-budget-study/url] and wonder why we are so pragmatic. Are our Governments so controlled by big business making big money form their antiquated big businesses. Governments certainly are happy for the market to provide direction and price in the name of competition. But look where alcohol, tobacco, and now sugar industries got us. Big business certainly drive and funnel consumer choice. Credit Cards are an example, pay to have it, pay to use it, then pay to owe money on it, and its getting harder to live in the modern world without one.

We have basically have the motor vehicle for just a tick over 100 years. Number one atmosphere destroyer with numbers due to increase in population growth. Toyota graciously plats 1 tree for every car sold, single species I believe, but far better than anyone else. It takes 7 x 15m high trees to clean enough air for one human to simply breath for 12 months. Imagine what a motor vehicle needs?

As with all new technology its a bit clunky and choice is limited, Ford, IBM, Motorola. I can’t help but wonder the Australian Government could create jobs, start another motor industry, and help the nation swap out its dirty fossil fuel cars being made by mostly lazy companies, to cleaner electric cars in just a few years. If labour cost and being competitive spring to mind. Well if we can afford French part made submarines, US made planes, and tanks from other first world countries; then make and modify them for our needs, than yes I think Australia can be competitive as we are dealing with other first world countries.

In todays global money market, money for Governments to implement national infrastructure has never been cheaper. National infrastructure is not bradford bats, nor $900 gifts, nor baby bonuses. Infrastructure is industries that add value to Australia, for today, tomorrow, and into the future.
I can't help wonder if a deal was struck with Tesla, the worlds leading electronic car manufacturere. That Australia was to buy X million at a significantly reduced price and make them here in Australia. This significantly reduced price along with a subsidy would create incentive for Australia to go electric and provide many jobs. This would almost overnight reduce our oil/fossil fuel foot print on the earth. If it seems non competitive, well kodak prints and slides vanished over night. CD's replaced venal, and electronic down loads replaced CDs. Would you really care if Shell or BP went under. Ford, Holden, Mitsubishi, Toyota Australia have all gone from being dinosaurs. And there were only 3 or 4 countries bidding for supply our next big buy up of weapons. So competition is what you want it to be.

There is a Queensland based Australian company already installing electronic boot stations Europe. The owners was one of those young chaps that raced those solar powered cars across the interior. Currently the technology is 20 minute charge with 300km range. That's more than a city dweller needs, and a 20 minute break is about a fossil fuel stop and sensible break if driving long haul. And imagine if the boot stations were solar powered.

So why are we so pragmatic, big business holding us back? Do we not care about global warming? Are politicians only focused on this week these days? I have my suspicions, but I'd love a sub 20K electronic car that also showed the world how its done.
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Re: Electric cars for Fossil cars

Postby photohiker » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 8:00 pm

20 minute charge for 300km range. Sounds good, where does the electricity come from to charge the car?

We have an electric car. It covers our daily range easily, charge it every day or so. Lots of PV on the roof, so we are kWh positive. Running cost is basically zero, but the capital cost of the car and the PV is way more than $20k.

If Australia mostly switched to electric cars, where will the power come from? Tasmania has lots of Hydro (when there is water), SA has lots of wind power and solar, but the rest of the country is embedded with fossil fuel. We can swap Petrol/diesel for electricity supplied by coal/gas but is that a significant improvement for our fossil fuel use in transport?

I think we first need to move away from fossil fuel, and that would help change our vehicle selections.

The vehicle industry has been falling off the cliff in AU for quite a while. We cannot match production and material costs because of our low volume. The govt has been pouring cash into Holden and Ford for a long time but they have pulled the pin and the industry is shot now. I can't see Tesla opening a plant here, we just don't have the volume.
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Re: Electric cars for Fossil cars

Postby Gadgetgeek » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 8:51 pm

I figure its a trajectory thing. We'll hit it at some point, just won't be quickly. Between infrastructure of charging, vehicle replacement, and general acceptance, I figure the 50/50 point will be 20 years from now, on the global average. Some countries will be faster (Japan, Korea) some slower, (Canada, Australia) because the infrastructure is less efficient given the population density and average daily drive. Overall though, I think its a wide range of things that all need to be put in play from an environmental standpoint, but I'm looking forward to being able to buy an electric car. I'm glad that they are getting within reach. As for Ford and Holden, If they can't run a profit, I wonder why that is? If they can't, someone else will. Get the efficiency of solar panels up, and I look forward to being able to drive to the end of the battery, camp for a week while they charge up, and drive home. Besides, off-road performance with the torque supplied by electric motors, oh yeah, bring it on!
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Re: Electric cars for Fossil cars

Postby RonK » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 9:14 pm

photohiker wrote:If Australia mostly switched to electric cars, where will the power come from? Tasmania has lots of Hydro (when there is water), SA has lots of wind power and solar, but the rest of the country is embedded with fossil fuel. We can swap Petrol/diesel for electricity supplied by coal/gas but is that a significant improvement for our fossil fuel use in transport?

Not to mention the environmental impact of the manufacture and eventual disposal of the batteries.

Electric cars simply shift the pollution elsewhere and are not the answer.

Probably the best hope lies in the development of hydrogen powered cars.
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Re: Electric cars for Fossil cars

Postby photohiker » Sun 25 Sep, 2016 10:07 pm

RonK wrote:Ipact of the manufacture and eventual disposal of the batteries.

Electric cars simply shift the pollution elsewhere and are not the answer.

Probably the best hope lies in the development of hydrogen powered cars.


Batteries won't be disposed, they will be re-used (ie. for home energy power banks) and eventually recycled. That is a lot different to burning the remains of dinosaurs in a big hurry like we are now. What we need is renewable electricity to fuel electric cars.

Toyota put a Hydrogen car (Mirai) into production and it hasn't yet been a runaway success. I can see that Shell/BP/etc would like to supply hydrogen via their fossil fuel stations, so maybe it will come up to speed. The Mirai is actually an electric car that uses hydrogen and a fuel cell to create electricity instead of storing power in a battery.
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Re: Electric cars for Fossil cars

Postby Xplora » Mon 26 Sep, 2016 6:03 am

Australia would have to be competitive in manufacturing for anything such as this to be made here. The fact is we are not competitive and will never be again so to build anything in Australia is going to cost a great deal more. Why? Because the Australian worker was more concerned about public holidays, shorter working week, more money for less work, sick leave, superannuation, 17% holiday loading (which as introduced for shift workers and then given to everyone), long service leave and so on. We became lazy and countries which care nothing for their workers have taken over manufacturing. One day they will develop an engine that runs on water and then see how much we will have to pay for water. Pretty soon the fuel efficient small diesel will be out of production because it cannot meet the emission control standards. EGR valves have been fitted to recycle exhaust gases but they only work for testing. They clog up the inlet manifold with carbon and your car then runs worse. Before electric cars take over there will need to be a revolution in battery technology to make them hold more charge, last longer, be lighter and more affordable. To replace my batteries for the house would cost around $15000 and they weigh collectively over 1.5 tonne. At the moment, batteries have a finite life span which is determined by the number of discharges. Once the battery is no good to run a car it will not be of much use to run a house but at least the lead acid type can be recycled. Any new battery type would have to be recyclable as well. I hope I live long enough to see a viable alternative to fossil fuel but the odds are dwindling with every birthday.
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Re: Electric cars for Fossil cars

Postby Moondog55 » Mon 26 Sep, 2016 6:23 am

Dropping the worlds population to a reasonable and sustainable level will do far more for the environment than any new technology.
Simply stop having so many children and drop the population back a few decades to 2 or 3 billion
Ve are too soon old und too late schmart
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Re: Electric cars for Fossil cars

Postby newhue » Mon 26 Sep, 2016 7:09 am

Remember a CEO saying he wants his life back...just something else to add in the boiling pot [url]https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/sep/26/bp-drilling-plan-great-australian-bight-lacks-detail-on-managing-oil-spills/url] Seems no change on the horizon, more oil on the way.

For me I'm not sure the earth has 20 years up its sleeve according to the link in the first post. As with Fords first car, it was bumpy, drafty, needed manual choking, double clutching, and probably not that efficient. Recall the first mobile phone. A battery to challenge the size of a six pack, and a hand piece as big as a public phone. The first computer took up a shed, now look at your phone, a computer and battery almost paper thin.
Get it rolling and development happens fast. And this is why the Government needs drive it. Leave it to big business and they will drip feed us old stock, change when it suits them, and one day we eventually get there. Business is about making money, with ethics that suite, and no moral duty to anyone but the ones in line for the money. Mass electric cars is as much about quickly changing our fossil fuel usage to save our planet, as finding a way to balance the books in the process. I think the government needs to lure Tesla with the idea of millions of sales in a kit form to get it at a great price. We build them here and work on something Australian in the mean time to sell to the world. If the yanks with all their OH&S and entitlement can be competitive and sell to the world, so can we.

Qld opened its first solar power station this year. South Australia closed a coal power station this year. Given boot stations will be in built up areas already littered with human achievement, where possible I'm sure an appropriate alternative energy can be implemented. Be it wind, solar, or combination of both with coal top up. But for today I guess dirty ol coal would be the easiest and first choice for the money makers. We need to come from a sustainable environment position, not a cash in the bank position. Money is a human disease and drug, we need it to be fresh air and water if we want our children and grand children to have a life.

Moondog, for all the wonders in the world, I can assure you. If I did not have children and a wife I would be the first to get off. I find little interest on this earth when I sit back and watch how humans treat it. How they treat each other, then pretend to care. I have a bad disease....its from the the brain I bleed, I look around and see the little kings getting away with murder, which leave me only with feeling of grief.
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Re: Electric cars for Fossil cars

Postby gayet » Mon 26 Sep, 2016 7:19 am

Moondog55 wrote:Dropping the worlds population to a reasonable and sustainable level will do far more for the environment than any new technology.
Simply stop having so many children and drop the population back a few decades to 2 or 3 billion


A few decades is not enough, a few centuries may help.
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Re: Electric cars for Fossil cars

Postby Moondog55 » Mon 26 Sep, 2016 7:30 am

Most of the huge increase in population has been in the last few decades, since about 1950/1060
Ve are too soon old und too late schmart
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Re: Electric cars for Fossil cars

Postby gayet » Mon 26 Sep, 2016 9:00 am

Human population was too high - for the non-human life forms - long before then.
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Re: Electric cars for Fossil cars

Postby Giddy_up » Mon 26 Sep, 2016 10:36 am

Solar and wind leaves a gap in supply as seen here

Business: SA's power shock sounds national electricity alarm
http://ab.co/2djxvO7

At those prices for power you will see real push back from consumers. Our infrastructure is just terrible and getting worse and very very outdated.

I'm with RonK on this one, hydrogen is the way to go but given Australia's scarcity of fresh water I'm not sure we can afford to use it to power vehicles when it's been removed from farmers who grow food to save the environment. Maybe horse and cart wasn't such a bad way to get around :)


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Re: Electric cars for Fossil cars

Postby photohiker » Mon 26 Sep, 2016 11:42 am

SA has closed it's Coal Power plants in Port Augusta, so yes, more renewable power is required.

Image

As you can see, Tasmania has the best renewables as long as they don't run out of water. SA follows then it's neck and neck between NSW and QLD. Vic trails the lot by continuing to burn masses of brown coal. WA looks to be using the highest percentage of fossil fuels of any of our states. (this is not an average production graphic over time, it's an instant snapshot)
http://www.energymatters.com.au/energy- ... tatistics/

Until we leave the fossil fuel in the ground, there is no solution for Australia to switch to electric car transport en masse without increasing our fossil fuel use.

The same problem occurs with Hydrogen:

As of 2004 and 2016, 96% of global hydrogen production is from fossil fuels[23] (48% from natural gas, 30% from oil, and 18% from coal); water electrolysis accounts for only 4%.[24]


Image

A study of the well-to-wheels efficiency of hydrogen vehicles compared to other vehicles in the Norwegian energy system indicates that hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles (FCV) tend to be about a third as efficient as EVs when electrolysis is used, with hydrogen Internal Combustion Engines (ICE) being barely a sixth as efficient. Even in the case where hydrogen fuel cells get their hydrogen from natural gas reformation rather than electrolysis, and EVs get their power from a natural gas power plant, the EVs still come out ahead 35% to 25% (and only 13% for a H2 ICE). This compares to 14% for a gasoline ICE, 27% for a gasoline ICE hybrid, and 17% for a diesel ICE, also on a well-to-wheels basis.[72]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_economy

There is no simple solution... :cry:
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Re: Electric cars for Fossil cars

Postby Giddy_up » Mon 26 Sep, 2016 12:12 pm

Interesting info there photohiker, hydrogen fuel cells lose a lot of efficiency which I didn't realise. You really do have to question Victoria's use of brown coal with Bass Strait right there and what I understand to be more than enough natural gas. Gas has to be better than brown coal surely.


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Re: Electric cars for Fossil cars

Postby Gadgetgeek » Mon 26 Sep, 2016 6:38 pm

Depends on what the plants are set up for. There is some interesting Canadian research that suggests we could "store" energy in powdered iron, burn it in the old coal plants when the load is needed, and smelt it back to iron when there is a renewable energy surplus. Interesting stuff. Part of the problem is that the plants are so huge that replacing them is not an easy pill. Its the menu problem, when is it worth re-printing the menu as prices change? There is interesting research into using CO2 as a turbine fluid instead of water in steam plants, way more efficient, but huge cost to adapt them.

I'm optimistic. Although I will admit watching the little kings does make it hard.
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Re: Electric cars for Fossil cars

Postby newhue » Tue 27 Sep, 2016 6:45 am

It seems us humans are in a real pickle here. Just what to do, and at what pace. 100 years of industrial evolution has certainly made it's mark. And with internet shopping, freight delivery, and imports only predicted to increasing; we better design a truck that does better then 1lt per kilometre; ships at 150 ton per day; and 747s at 4lt per second or 150 000lt for a 10 hour flight. Ponder on that for a bit, do a bit of counting.

Back to cars, I can't help wonder about all those new more efficient engines that were designed, some by Australian, but never could get the interest. I can't recall any but I do recall oil companies buying rights and appearing to bury the blue prints deep in the volt. It seems we are still at the same point today. Very slow controlled pace by large companies that always analyse profits with change. Completely disregarding the environment for if, or just when, the sky turns brown, the water gets foggy and stinky, and no one on earth will be worried about a car again if ever.

I have little engine knowledge, but if a turbo spins from exhaust, then why can't some internal centrifugal force born out of movement from the vehicles initial battery charge; recharge or contribute to it as it goes. Why work on charge it and run it flat. Charge as you go surely has been considered.
My father drove a BMW hybrid. 2lt I think with several turbos, and derived energy from brakes, fly wheels, and whatever moved basically. It was very 'powerful" humans love that, but it used 3lt per 100 or close to. Was a big sized car but being a high end car had a high end price. We kind of need that technology today, at a price the family or less cashed up can afford. But we also need to work out a $ value for a 1sm of bush. That way we start to get a real idea of how many eons it takes to make biodiversity, air and water, compared to the latest gadget, new car, or sardine box housing estate.
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Re: Electric cars for Fossil cars

Postby Xplora » Tue 27 Sep, 2016 7:22 am

newhue wrote:
Back to cars, I can't help wonder about all those new more efficient engines that were designed, some by Australian, but never could get the interest. I can't recall any but I do recall oil companies buying rights and appearing to bury the blue prints deep in the volt. It seems we are still at the same point today. Very slow controlled pace by large companies that always analyse profits with change. Completely disregarding the environment for if, or just when, the sky turns brown, the water gets foggy and stinky, and no one on earth will be worried about a car again if ever.


Ralph Sarich from WA. Look him up.

newhue wrote: I have little engine knowledge, but if a turbo spins from exhaust, then why can't some internal centrifugal force born out of movement from the vehicles initial battery charge; recharge or contribute to it as it goes. Why work on charge it and run it flat. Charge as you go surely has been considered.


Einstein - first law of thermodynamics. There is still money available for anyone who creates the first perpetual motion machine. If power is needed to propel the vehicle then power will be lost charging it and it will be less efficient. Motion will have to drive some sort of alternator and spin it fast enough to create the power but then you have more friction and energy to the wheels is lost.
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Electric cars for Fossil cars

Postby GPSGuided » Tue 27 Sep, 2016 9:28 am

Just got back from a work trip to Beijing and other locations. On a street corner I came across a long bank of no less than 20 chargers of 3 designs though not fully used at around 5pm Sunday. Also saw numerous isolated charging points in non-descript residential parking areas. I further understand that the cheapest EV can be had for 15k Aussie equivalent with heavy govt subsidy and factory discount. It's clear the govt is really pushing EV at various levels. One reservation by the locals is on the battery's winter performance, something most Aussies don't have to worry about year round.

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Re: Electric cars for Fossil cars

Postby newhue » Tue 27 Sep, 2016 5:05 pm

How about these silent magnetic motors rigged up to a generator in our back yards powering our homes, or boot stations for that matter.
[url]http://www.greenoptimistic.com/real-working-magnetic-motor/#.V-oXMDJh2V4/url]

China hey, surprising who's advanced and who's developing.
The bit I heard on the radio about boot stations suggested in the near future one would just park over a plate. Safe to walk on when the car is not there, and safe to energise the batteries as the cars would provide the protection.

Thanks Explora, will do.
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Re: Electric cars for Fossil cars

Postby taipan821 » Tue 27 Sep, 2016 7:14 pm

while electric cars are a step towards the future... the infrastructure needed is mindblowing

the average electric car travels 160km on flat ground between charges, through a few hills in the route and the mileage goes down.
while this isn't a problem in urban environments, how will you drive to and from your hikes? or to the next country town?

we still need fossil fuels for the logistics and long distance stuff, but what makes that more environmentally friendly is the amount moved, a truck can move more than a car, a train can move more than a truck, a ship can move more than a train
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Re: Electric cars for Fossil cars

Postby GPSGuided » Tue 27 Sep, 2016 8:26 pm

Don't forget the energy source/storage are also evolving, at a dramatic rate. Just look at our AA rechargeable batteries and their increase in capacity. Magic happen when there's billions being poured.


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Re: Electric cars for Fossil cars

Postby newhue » Wed 28 Sep, 2016 7:56 am

gpsguided you have hit the key words :at a dramatic rate" this goes for development, but also the environment. The race is on so to speak to a future of ? Unfortunately there doesn't seem much haste from anyone but those dam greenies who take what the scientist are saying as a very real outcome seriously. When world war broke out much haste was engaged, and billions poorer into it. Just seems the people with the power and money, those dam capitalist christians don't see the next 50 year window for our survival as needing much haste. I say capital christian because that is the common religion and values the english settled us on. If greenie is an annoying bread, so is a capitalist christian.

My best mate who is a good christian and capitalist chirstian couldn't give a rip. Its all in gods plan according to him. However he didn't have much of an answer for me when I asked if it was ok if his son had no future due to a polluted dead world. He likes to call me greenie, it amuses him.

Very true about big things carry more. I counted 85 coal carriages behind 2 diesel electric locos the other day. I can't find how much diesel they use, but if it were trucks it would be 85 000lt of diesel to go from Brisbane to Sydney. Does anyone know if two diesel electric loco's would use the same amount. But I'd be surprised if the average semi could haul a full big trailer of coal as well. There must be 300+ trucks up and down Bris to Syd to Mlb every night. Not hard to see why the industry took off with the jobs and growth crowd. More trucks, more tires, more oil, more fuel, more servicing, more road kill, and delivered to more and more service hubs. I can't help but ponder though, the same hubs or the majors could have been serviced by a train. Possibly a 100km/k freight train with 200 carriages. Double handling I have heard. But as with all industry, push it that way and with technology better systems and faster loading would develop. The capitalist christians can't help themselves, they have to make more and more money so they will figure a way. Just be good if they and the politicians considered the world they live on more.
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Re: Electric cars for Fossil cars

Postby Giddy_up » Wed 28 Sep, 2016 9:14 am

A rail wheat wagon can carry 55 tonnes, a B Double truck is 42.

Fuel use in trains is done in tonnes hauled per litre and its all related to terrain, engine speed and horse power per tonne, so there is no tried convention on calculation.

If it was going to port then I think trains would be more efficient. If it needs to be handled again or transported to another site beyond the port then truck would probably win because of the handling and addition fuel that would need to be added to the train usage so it's not apples and apples we are comparing.


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Re: Electric cars for Fossil cars

Postby newhue » Wed 28 Sep, 2016 8:39 pm

Thanks GU. That is what I found, fuel consumption's subject to a fair few perimeters with trains. The boats are the same with size and speed, but tried to pluck an average. I noticed the coal carriages in NSW down Muswellbrook way looked higher and a bit longer than what we have here in Qld.
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Re: Electric cars for Fossil cars

Postby Gadgetgeek » Wed 28 Sep, 2016 9:17 pm

Different rail gauge I think, problems australia has is that there isn't a completely national rail network.

Newhue without getting into a discussion of religion, all I have to say is yep, that's a theological problem that exists. It runs deep, and is hard to fight against, (who doesn't like the idea that there are no real repercussions?)

Lots of problems, but also lots of solutions, and the momentum is swinging away from entrenched power. Changes are happening faster and faster, and society will reach a tipping point where we will hit an effective direct democracy even if its still representative by name. We are seeing the start of it with the current US election, the news coverage is almost pointless unless its just active fact checking. All of those things will start to just happen, regulators might try to hold it back, but the reality is they can't. Make fun of millennials all you want, but a lot of us believe that individual choices matter, and the next generation even more so.
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Re: Electric cars for Fossil cars

Postby newhue » Thu 29 Sep, 2016 5:53 am

Its sure going to interesting with a me myself I and lots of cash is all that matters future. I don't know the answer.
But I am discovering I can't afford an electric car, and perhaps its BS anyway due to charge supply. Hybrids are not that much more economical than the tightly screwed normally aspirated standard car of today. And to buy a normal aspirated car feels like buying the same technology as a model T ford.

Maybe GU horse and cart is the answer, I crawl in traffic most days are a good horse pace anyway.
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Re: Electric cars for Fossil cars

Postby photohiker » Thu 29 Sep, 2016 7:05 am

It's early days for electric vehicles. If you wanted one and don't have the cash for a new EV, have a look at the price of second hand examples. There are not many out there yet so patience would be required to find one at a good price. I have seen Nissan Leafs in the mid 20's
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Re: Electric cars for Fossil cars

Postby Xplora » Thu 29 Sep, 2016 7:11 am

Rail is still the most efficient way to move large volume on land. The second engine is not always running either. I am ready for the horse and cart. Have 4 horses already but a trip to town will take all day or maybe 2. Will have to work out how to plug my car fridge into the cart to keep the meat from spoiling.
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Re: Electric cars for Fossil cars

Postby newhue » Thu 29 Sep, 2016 12:22 pm

Sorry if I was a bit harsh photohiker, a step by you to buy electric is a giant one, its CEOs or the government dragging the chain.

Were off to have a crack at working out a hybrid demo price today. Give its predicted electric will be here in a big way in a decade. And given car manufacturers invented and subscribe to the 10 year chucka, I'm not keen on spending more than 20k. Discovering a normally asperated vehicle with a longer warranty and close milage to hybrid, along with demo pricing I think I have come to a conclusion. Is this what the market asked for, or just gets?

Explora, do horses make methain? You can plug a 3 way straight up.
Last edited by newhue on Thu 29 Sep, 2016 1:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Electric cars for Fossil cars

Postby GPSGuided » Thu 29 Sep, 2016 12:31 pm

Also did a round with EV/hybrid a few months ago. Not quite there yet for me. Stayed with another diesel and fully expect an EV replacement in 5 years.


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