Electric cars for Fossil cars

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Re: Electric cars for Fossil cars

Postby newhue » Sun 09 Oct, 2016 7:25 pm

yes frustrating indeed. Just so happens my old staff member starts back with me tomorrow. He has just spent 9 months in one of the countries biggest battery suppling companies. Be interesting to hear what goes on, and at what price.

I agree I'm sure most who commute point to point with little more than themselves could ride a battery bicycle or step through scooter. But you need the numbers in the scooters favour, to dangerous with texting cars having the majority. Quite interesting however seeing how they do it in Asia with what, how much, and many can be carried.
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Re: Electric cars for Fossil cars

Postby Xplora » Mon 10 Oct, 2016 6:39 am

I am surprised nobody has picked up that Germany is legislating to ban all greenhouse gas emitting vehicles from 2030. That is to say no more new cars from then. The EU could follow suit as they often do with Germany. They still need to make a EV off road vehicle.
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Re: Electric cars for Fossil cars

Postby newhue » Mon 10 Oct, 2016 6:39 pm

Does anybody believe the germans and emissions after VW lol. That's only 14 years away and it's predicted EV will here in a big way in 10. I had dreams the new Defender would be electric, but I don't think LR are into that type of technology. Well not yet. If you bring this stuff up on a 4x4 forum, you may as well talk to a wall. A pretty agro wall at that, *&^%$#! off you *&%$#! greenie is a common reply. Obviously keen nature observers in that camp, and they will tell you how they love nature, but GW just doesn't appear to apply to them.

I think it's really not the consumer holding it up though. I have spotted several nissan hybrids on the road along with a fair few toyota camrys. Though not EV, they are a reasonable bridging technology, but sadly double the price of the standard old school equivalent in that model. Most companies make them, but don't actively advertise them. It's like no company wants to be the greenie in the market. Governments are asleep as usual. Not promoting them, no incentives to buy them though that should not really be necessary. However a discount on rego or something would not be unwelcome and gets people talking and considering.

Wife has just done 637km on 26lt, 4.08lt /100 around town. Not bad and far better than her old 8lt/100 4 cylinder.
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Re: Electric cars for Fossil cars

Postby GPSGuided » Mon 10 Oct, 2016 9:09 pm

Why not? The VW incident is limited to those specific individuals and hardly an event that should be used to stain all Germans.

An all EV future for Australia? We better first work out how to provision our baseload in the country. Will solar/wind/thermal adequately provide the additional baseload required with all the additional EVs on the road? With a lack of diversity in the mode of energy, a repeat of SA's recent electricity outage would be devastating.
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Re: Electric cars for Fossil cars

Postby climberman » Mon 10 Oct, 2016 9:43 pm

newhue wrote:Does anybody believe the germans and emissions after VW lol. That's only 14 years away and it's predicted EV will here in a big way in 10. I had dreams the new Defender would be electric, but I don't think LR are into that type of technology. Well not yet. If you bring this stuff up on a 4x4 forum, you may as well talk to a wall. A pretty agro wall at that, *&^%$#! off you *&%$#! greenie is a common reply. Obviously keen nature observers in that camp, and they will tell you how they love nature, but GW just doesn't appear to apply to them.

I think it's really not the consumer holding it up though. I have spotted several nissan hybrids on the road along with a fair few toyota camrys. Though not EV, they are a reasonable bridging technology, but sadly double the price of the standard old school equivalent in that model. Most companies make them, but don't actively advertise them. It's like no company wants to be the greenie in the market. Governments are asleep as usual. Not promoting them, no incentives to buy them though that should not really be necessary. However a discount on rego or something would not be unwelcome and gets people talking and considering.

Wife has just done 637km on 26lt, 4.08lt /100 around town. Not bad and far better than her old 8lt/100 4 cylinder.


BMW are advertising their hybrids on tele (I think I saw it on Tele, it's only been on once or twice this year, so could have been online / streaming)
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Re: Electric cars for Fossil cars

Postby climberman » Mon 10 Oct, 2016 9:52 pm

GPSGuided wrote:
An all EV future for Australia? We better first work out how to provision our baseload in the country. Will solar/wind/thermal adequately provide the additional baseload required with all the additional EVs on the road? With a lack of diversity in the mode of energy, a repeat of SA's recent electricity outage would be devastating.


As the market evolves to require more charge points, other parts of the market will see an opening and rise to meet it. It doesn't need to be overnight.
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Re: Electric cars for Fossil cars

Postby Xplora » Tue 11 Oct, 2016 6:05 am

I cannot see (in my lifetime) anyone replacing fossil fuel burners completely. All my vehicles are diesel which is a problem in winter sometimes or when you get caught out in a cold snap without winter fuel. Both my cars are 4wd but one is an SUV. We need 4wd just to get to town sometimes. How long do you think a charge would last on heavy machinery or in 4wd mode or climbing mountains. The cost for me to set up another separate charging system to run the vehicles would be crippling. The emission regulators are placing considerable restraints on all vehicles to the point they have to cheat. The truth is the emission controls put on diesel vehicles are only good for a very short time and then they make them worse. (I think I mentioned that before) We will just have to keep our old vehicles running until we die if they stop making them but when the fuel companies go broke because they cannot sell fuel we will be back to ploughing with horses. In reality they would just put the price of fuel up and keep supply going so farmers can get their work done and you guys in the city will be paying for it at the checkout. If the farmers go broke then you guys will be getting your food (and salmonella) from Asia. Everything has a flow on and we need sensibility to assess the benefits and the costs. Finding a balance is the key but simply banning greenhouse emitting vehicles is stupid.
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Re: Electric cars for Fossil cars

Postby newhue » Tue 11 Oct, 2016 6:06 am

GPSGuided wrote:Why not? The VW incident is limited to those specific individuals and hardly an event that should be used to stain all Germans.

An all EV future for Australia? We better first work out how to provision our baseload in the country. Will solar/wind/thermal adequately provide the additional baseload required with all the additional EVs on the road? With a lack of diversity in the mode of energy, a repeat of SA's recent electricity outage would be devastating.


Are you German? all good, I was only have a laugh. I wrote lol after it. They are a competitive bunch, but at least they are willing to lead.

I imagine we learned a fair bit out of the SA experience, especially nature can through us humans around like ants. I see ol Turnbull just can't accept perhaps the fury is GW just warming up. I posted a magnetic generator up a little while ago. elsewhere it seems some think it can, others don't. But imagine if every business, house, school etc had one of these silent go forever magnetic turbines rigged up to a generator producing that dwelling energy needs. Anything is possible. Coal/energy companies, oil/motor companies, politicians looking after their private wealth rather than the countries all make sure it doesn't happen. Control, cash, and power is king. Diverse and the little kings feel they are worthless. They blame renewable energy for SA power failure, perhaps its a bit deeper than that.
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Re: Electric cars for Fossil cars

Postby newhue » Tue 11 Oct, 2016 6:08 am

climberman wrote:
newhue wrote:Does anybody believe the germans and emissions after VW lol. That's only 14 years away and it's predicted EV will here in a big way in 10. I had dreams the new Defender would be electric, but I don't think LR are into that type of technology. Well not yet. If you bring this stuff up on a 4x4 forum, you may as well talk to a wall. A pretty agro wall at that, *&^%$#! off you *&%$#! greenie is a common reply. Obviously keen nature observers in that camp, and they will tell you how they love nature, but GW just doesn't appear to apply to them.

I think it's really not the consumer holding it up though. I have spotted several nissan hybrids on the road along with a fair few toyota camrys. Though not EV, they are a reasonable bridging technology, but sadly double the price of the standard old school equivalent in that model. Most companies make them, but don't actively advertise them. It's like no company wants to be the greenie in the market. Governments are asleep as usual. Not promoting them, no incentives to buy them though that should not really be necessary. However a discount on rego or something would not be unwelcome and gets people talking and considering.

Wife has just done 637km on 26lt, 4.08lt /100 around town. Not bad and far better than her old 8lt/100 4 cylinder.


BMW are advertising their hybrids on tele (I think I saw it on Tele, it's only been on once or twice this year, so could have been online / streaming)



Yeaaahhh!!!. I'm going to sent them an email saying how cool that is.
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Re: Electric cars for Fossil cars

Postby newhue » Tue 11 Oct, 2016 6:29 am

Explora, mate I'm glad you can be a pessimistic as myself. BUT, did you ever think a tractor would drive and plough a field itself. Ever think a 30T truck will drive from Syd to Bris on its own without a driver. Or a car park itself backwards without you assisting? Yes it currently seems impossible for a 4x4 to go the distance. It seemed impossible to fly to the moon once upon time as well. GW will be the force in this as its too scary to ignore it. Our Government is asleep, buy then perhaps they don't want to alarm people as 25 to 30 years is to that long. Just imagine you wake up one day and the sky is brown.....around the globe. Once people really start to think that could be possible, it will go leaps and bounds. Electronic Technology has only been here 20-25 years for us all easily. And I say that with gratitude living in the west. We double, triple our knowledge every second, day, week, or whatever it is. The stakes and profits are high in the race for who wins the first battery, and it may never be all battery for heavy machinery.

I once heard Karl Kruszelnicki say our roads are black, why aren't they solar generating. I believe a solar membrane has been made nowadays that is like a paint. Perhaps the roads become solar conductors and cars draw energy from a pick up under the car. Humans have the imagination, and talent to create. We just need the freedom from the big players scared of loosing control. I wonder though, if we are all controlled in a money sense, how can we ever be happy.
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Re: Electric cars for Fossil cars

Postby GPSGuided » Tue 11 Oct, 2016 9:38 am

Yep, EV technology will dramatically improve with all the investments being poured at the moment. So don't be surprised if those diesel 4x4 get replaced by EVs. Do bear in mind that electric motors have great torque production, exactly what those diesel 4x4 need i.e. Perfect replacement technology.
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Re: Electric cars for Fossil cars

Postby photohiker » Tue 11 Oct, 2016 11:21 am

GPSGuided wrote:Yep, EV technology will dramatically improve with all the investments being poured at the moment. So don't be surprised if those diesel 4x4 get replaced by EVs. Do bear in mind that electric motors have great torque production, exactly what those diesel 4x4 need i.e. Perfect replacement technology.


The issue is not motor performance, the issue is range and access to recharging. I guess there will eventually be EV Charge points across the Simpson Desert and along the Oodnadatta Track. lol.

Of course, most 4x4's are 100% used for suburban shopping trips and school drop and pick ups etc. An electric 4x4 will be fine for that, but due to it's size and weight it will lose a lot of efficiency compared to a normal city sized EV car. Still would be well ahead of a fossil fuel car:

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Re: Electric cars for Fossil cars

Postby Mark F » Tue 11 Oct, 2016 11:32 am

The mention of bio fuels seems to missing. We already have ethanol in petrol and to a far lesser extent biodiesel. For many rural users biofuels may be the appropriate technology. I am aware that too much biomass, especially edible biomass being used for fuels creates other problems but restricting it to rural usage rather than urban may be appropriate.

Xplora, better make friends with you local fish and chip shop.

Really the issue is about the length of the carbon cycle. Fossil fuels (fossil says it all) have a carbon cycle of millions of years whereas biofuels have a carbon cycle of less than a decade and more like one year.
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Re: Electric cars for Fossil cars

Postby newhue » Wed 12 Oct, 2016 11:33 pm

Inside EV's US based but hours of wonder.

http://insideevs.com
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Re: Electric cars for Fossil cars

Postby GPSGuided » Thu 13 Oct, 2016 2:29 am

Range will come. And there's no shortage of sun and wind out there.
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Re: Electric cars for Fossil cars

Postby Xplora » Thu 13 Oct, 2016 6:25 am

The Landcruiser in the comparison above has a 138l capacity (not 93) which makes its range around the city 762km using the worst figures. But this comparison is also one of apples and oranges and does not have much relevance. If you can afford to buy one of those Landcruisers then the cost of fuel will never be an issue. EV in the bush is not a lot of use if you run out and they will also need to improve charging times without detriment to the batteries. Ten or so years will make a great deal of difference with technology but to replace big workhorse engines will take longer I feel. Technology is also taking jobs so by then 70% of us will be out of work. Not me though as I gave that up years ago. All I say is be careful what you wish for as there is a flow on. With a huge population and rising unemployment coupled with massive price increases for commodities and the basics many might say there is a good recipe for another world war. Crime would rise as would suicide. That would be certain to destroy the planet quicker than fossil fuel burners.

Mark - No good with the local take away. I don't think she changes her oil.
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Re: Electric cars for Fossil cars

Postby newhue » Thu 13 Oct, 2016 6:58 am

Mark F wrote:The mention of bio fuels seems to missing. We already have ethanol in petrol and to a far lesser extent biodiesel. For many rural users biofuels may be the appropriate technology. I am aware that too much biomass, especially edible biomass being used for fuels creates other problems but restricting it to rural usage rather than urban may be appropriate.

Xplora, better make friends with you local fish and chip shop.

Really the issue is about the length of the carbon cycle. Fossil fuels (fossil says it all) have a carbon cycle of millions of years whereas biofuels have a carbon cycle of less than a decade and more like one year.


Mark, what's the go with to much biomass? In Landy Land there is the od one who gets oil from the local fishing n chipy, their car smells like a fish ad chop shop when you follow.
I noticed my wifes previous petrol car become very sluggish, unresponsive, and almost powerless when she ran it on E10 continously. Thinking she was saving money, however it went another 50Km on premium each tank, ran like it should, and perhaps avoided unnecessary mechanical costs. Also noticed some V8 super driver flogging E10, for us to use, but didn't hear a mention when it came to their show using it. Both products however are still burning oil for motion.
If EVs relie on coal for the recharge supply then we have gone nowhere. Well faster to that big brown sky and extinction I suppose. So the recharge supply has to be solar, wind, a combination, or something other than what we have now so it doesn't destroy the planet. CEO's will still get their bonuses, banks will still make insane profits, and Polies will brag.
Nuclear for a power supply I feel is not an option. Its cheap, efficient, and has a long life for set up cost; but if it goes bad and it has, then the costs afterwards dwarf all the came before. We just don't know what to do with it. Japan is a good example of how it can go badly. America, Russia, China, and Korea with their ego's, power trips, and war machines are an example of how bad it has come and potentially can end.
On a positive note however, China has the biggest EV take up rate I believe. My wife met an American yesterday who said they have Prius hybrids everywhere, they are quite popular. Yesterday I spied a truck with 4 Nissan hybrids going somewhere, and passed by two Camey hybrids. Not EV, but a bridge.

I know I'd love a Tesla.
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Re: Electric cars for Fossil cars

Postby newhue » Thu 13 Oct, 2016 7:10 am

Explora, whats to say first off they make a 4x4 EV that also has a small petrol motor on board, governed to do nothing but tick over quietly and efficiently to charges batteries. Sadly I could see the US army getting into that. Perhaps one day the wind can be mastered and as the vehicle moves forward it somehow charges.

Think the jobs this will evolve. And I bet when the industrial revolution came along many had similar concerns about jobs and civil unrest. World wars start over land and who occupies it. Religion is then used to rally the momentum. Jobs and prosperity may be in there as well, but we need a new way of doing things. A different way of respect, responsibility, trading, and looking after each other. Its quite obvious the current way its done is in a whirlpool of self destruction.
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Re: Electric cars for Fossil cars

Postby Mark F » Thu 13 Oct, 2016 11:11 am

The issue with too much biomass is that it can reduce food supplies and thus increase food prices - especially problematic in the developing world. This has already happened and was discussed reasonably widely some years ago.

Problems running on bio fuels - it is mainly a matter of having the vehicle engine designed to burn those fuels. For most modern cars E10 is fine and could be pushed to E20 without major issues. If it is causing a problem then maybe your car has an engine that is not designed for E10 or it is poorly tuned. E10 does reduce the amount of fossil oil burnt although not by nearly enough but is adapted to many existing vehicles rather than relying on those vehicles being scrapped and replaced.

In Canberra many of the cabs are now Prius's. Given the number of km each does a year this is quite significant.
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Re: Electric cars for Fossil cars

Postby newhue » Thu 13 Oct, 2016 8:49 pm

Thanks Mark, wife ex car was an 2003 Ford Focus, so you'd think it should be E10 compatible. But according to the Gov's E10 OK web sight apparently its not. So there you go.

Plenty of Prius cabs up here as well. The wife's Prius is the smaller version, the C i-Teck. She parked behind another today at school, so there seems to be a few hybrids when you start looking.
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Re: Electric cars for Fossil cars

Postby newhue » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 6:44 am

somewhere in this thread I mentioned a Qld based company making components for charge stations bound for europe. By chance and friends, I had dinner with one of the founders of that business.

World leader in innovation, market leader, orders of over 150 000 units today, are manufacturing here in Brisbane, EV take up in europe currently is 3 in 10 vehicles.
All vehicle manufacturers are scrambling desperately trying to get on board as they can mass produce cars, but EV is not their gig. Tesla is the same but the opposite. Panasonic is building the worlds largest shed to nothing more than build batteries. And whatever the concern was with a shortage of battery materials is not true.

But these guys have considerable growth pains with funding as you don't get paid immediately. Currently they are worth about 120 million, but will the banks lend them money...nope. Got no real estate...go no potential. They have had some private and State Gov investment but as he said their last 4 million didn't go far. You'd think CBA with their 10 billion profit could muster just a little confidence and have a go; or any of the others in the big 4 gang. So if you know anyone with some spare loot looking for a gold mine PM me.

This guys drives a Tesla, said the only service cost was tires and a battery pack service (not replacement) at 200K. He doesn't use the brakes cause if you drive it so, the electric motors do the braking. He has had it for a year now and still puts a big dumb smile on his face every time he drives it. He has the smallest battery, their fist battery which does 300km. But said nowadays you can get a 500km battery for it. Cost him 106K, same same or cheaper than european model t ford powered dinosaurs.
He can drive Syd to Mlb free, and Brs to Syd is almost complete, not bad hey.

He is also looking at his car making money for him by putting part of his charge into the coal grid at peak times. Said Aus could have EV now, a Tesla can be picked up for 55AU, but we are dinosaurs basically. Hope that doesn't mean going extinct.

Makes my idea of Ol Malcolm asking Tesla for 4 million units to be delivered in a box so we can manufacture them here not so dumb. But I dare say that would not be seen as a nation building program, or any of the spin off from doing so. I guess hold steady we have the world biggest coal mine on the way.
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Re: Electric cars for Fossil cars

Postby mark electric » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 11:07 am

Going back to the initial post by newhue.
Electric car would be a positive solution for our country.
I drive a car and have flown in a plane, so I use fossil fuels. Always aware of not being a hypocrite.
I have been in the electrical game for a while now.
I have been living off grid for 4 odd years with my 12 solar panels and 1000Ahr battery bank with a 4000W inverter running the house.
If an all electric vehicle was available at the right price I would jump on it, I could charge it off my set up for free each day, effectively always having a full tank.
I am trying to do the right thing, it is a philosophy and a direction to head that doesnt happen straight away.
It saddens me the way the world works. I cant see us cutting our ties and reliance on coal anytime soon, especially in QLD with new mines on the books.
The sun rains down free energy every day.
I dont think Hydrogen is the answer, It takes energy to make Hydrogen. It is hard to transport.
My 2 cents
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Re: Electric cars for Fossil cars

Postby GPSGuided » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 11:28 am

mark electric wrote:Electric car would be a positive solution for our country.

All still go back to a fundamental issue, where are we going to get those electricity to power these vehicles? If we can achieve clean energy power generation to support the base load requirements, then the answer is obvious. If it means we build more coal, gas and oil power stations, then the choice is not so clear. Love electric cars but want to know I'm not just pushing the pollution out to someone else's backyard.
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Re: Electric cars for Fossil cars

Postby mark electric » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 12:29 pm

Hi GPS,
First of all I would like to say it is refreshing to be on a forum where people actually care enough to write about this difficult issue.
A lot dont give a rats.

Our power issues should be a multi pronged approach. Using a mixture of all the renewables out there.
Batteries are getting better and cheaper.
It is starting to catch on where each house has it own battery bank (look at power wall as an example) as well as being connected to the grid.
I like the idea of a car pulling into work, plug it into a socket supplied by solar above.
Car drives home, plug it to a solar powered house.
The range of an electric car is an issue, if lets say the range is 300km, then have a battery swapping station. Car pulls in, press a button for a battery exchange. It would be quicker than standing there to fill up with fuel. This is being looked at.
Even if we can change a percentage of what we are doing now, that has got to be an improvement.
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Re: Electric cars for Fossil cars

Postby newhue » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 8:32 pm

mark electric, first of all I'd like to say how nice it is to hear you have an appreciation for this stuff. The environment is the white elephant in the room, with most enjoying some aspect of it, but few want to stand up for it. I congratulate your off grid efforts. I am looking at doing the same.

I could write quite sad and disturbing response I learned from having a dinner with an environmental scientist last night. But I'd rather, with conviction not hope, write this posts to encourage people to tell our politicians that we don't want coal charged electric car revolution. We want solar. We want our own freedom and independence to go off grid. We want our house to run itself, charge our cars, and then our cars contribute to day time base loads where they can. And then we want to drive them home and charge them for free from our off grid houses again. Furthermore we want to be paid for contributing instead of always paying. We are sick of oil companies, and coal mines ruining our planet, and we want jobs and growth based on a 21st and looking into a 22nd century technology. We no longer want some die hard old school way of doing things because the planet simply can't do it anymore.

We don't want the whole EV revolution being just another opportunity for manufacturers to make profits and turn over new products. And you politicians stick with some antiquated coal mine mindset. We want it to be a real step forward in helping this planet support us. You politicians can stop bitching at each other, and develop a frame work for jobs and growth base on forward thinking, not entrenched in the past.
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Re: Electric cars for Fossil cars

Postby mark electric » Mon 14 Nov, 2016 10:04 pm

Heartfelt - Ill send you some images of my set up. You are welcome to visit, I am north of Brissy. Cheers

Some fine Solar examples below.

St Lucia university in Brisbane is a fine example of what can be achieved.
http://solar-energy.uq.edu.au/about
Google search images "St Lucia University solar" to see largest solar project in southern hemisphere.

Cooktown in QLD Solar power station with battery bank.
http://www.couriermail.com.au/business/ ... 3fbb8088de

12 solar power plants to be built.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-09-08/a ... lt/7826302
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Re: Electric cars for Fossil cars

Postby newhue » Tue 15 Nov, 2016 6:15 am

Don't wish to drag this off topic. But when I look at those solar stations part of me thinks its great they exist, but another says they are big ugly smears on the land scape, not much different to an existing power station. When I look at Tesla's roof tiles a house looks like a house without these funny black plates plonked on it, and uses the whole roof with various angles to get the best from what's free. Don't get me wrong panels are a start and a much needed one. But when a shed roof from a farmer to a panel beater, to an office worker has a big flat area staring at the sun I think we can do better. I have a small shopping centre near me covered in solar panels. I reckon three cheers for the owner for having a go, but I also wonder if they will all take off in the next big storm, and its butt ugly as well. Solar panels are like 80's technology.

Its such a shame our governments have let science slip over the years. It's even a bigger shame politicians seem to only take note of science that works for them. Its so undervalued in this country and anyone who does it well and is young often heads overseas. Beef and coal is what many think we are. But us Australians have to be the smartest, innovative, low key, specific targeted bunch on the planet.
A few years ago I an American say after their 07 housing crash, I think we are just starting to work out we need to do more than just sell real estate to each other. Sadly I think Australia has followed the americans here again, just it hasn't dawned on us yet you can't make a country prosperous and rich in happiness selling real estate to each other.

Perhaps our leaders need to encourage we work as team instead of individuals, its not strong in the Australian psyche to back ourselves in business generally. Tax incentives, national infrastructure borrowing, I don't know. But it feels like we are slowly becoming tenants in our own country, carrying a decent debt, who buy every thing and have nothing to sell except some old stuff from out the back in next Saturdays garage sale. I can't see India or China sticking with coal, their pollution is to great now, and they have just started developing. China already has huge amounts of EV's, they need to charge them differently, and they will.
newhue
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