uluru climbing to be banned from Oct 2019

For topics unrelated to bush walking or to the forums.

uluru climbing to be banned from Oct 2019

Postby jdeks » Sat 04 Nov, 2017 11:13 am

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-01/u ... on/9103512


I'm sure there will be many varied opinions on the politics of this decision, but if it was a peice of this land that anyone here wanted to experience for themselves, you've got two years left.

Terrible shame in my opinion
jdeks
Athrotaxis cupressoides
Athrotaxis cupressoides
 
Posts: 344
Joined: Sat 15 Mar, 2014 5:05 pm
Region: Australia

Re: uluru climbing to be banned from Oct 2019

Postby Davidf61 » Sat 04 Nov, 2017 12:27 pm

I can see valid arguments for both sides, personally I have climbed it [ twice ] and didn't feel I was disrespecting the place, but that's me.

I can see tourism there absolutely crashing in numbers though......
Davidf61
Athrotaxis cupressoides
Athrotaxis cupressoides
 
Posts: 143
Joined: Wed 10 Apr, 2013 5:46 pm
Region: Western Australia
Gender: Male

Re: uluru climbing to be banned from Oct 2019

Postby Mark F » Sat 04 Nov, 2017 12:57 pm

The problem is that the disrespect is keenly felt by the owners rather than the climbers. As only few people actually climb it now days out of respect for the views of the traditional owners it is unlikely there will be any impact on tourism.
"Perfection is attained not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing more to remove".
User avatar
Mark F
Athrotaxis selaginoides
Athrotaxis selaginoides
 
Posts: 1964
Joined: Mon 19 Sep, 2011 8:14 pm
Region: Australian Capital Territory
Gender: Male

Re: uluru climbing to be banned from Oct 2019

Postby walkon » Sat 04 Nov, 2017 1:51 pm

Whether visitor numbers drop is irrellevant really. Its about the local custodians beliefs. For those who think that you have the right to walk all over Uluru. Do you walk all over the mosques or churches you see? There's no diference really.
By the way, a sure sign of visitor activity at Uluru are through photos. By far the most pics are of the rock at sunset and dawn . Not of people climbing it.
Cheers Walkon

"I live in a very small house, but my windows look out on a very large world."
User avatar
walkon
Phyllocladus aspleniifolius
Phyllocladus aspleniifolius
 
Posts: 801
Joined: Sun 24 Nov, 2013 7:03 am
Region: Victoria
Gender: Male

Re: uluru climbing to be banned from Oct 2019

Postby jdeks » Sat 04 Nov, 2017 2:28 pm

walkon wrote:Whether visitor numbers drop is irrellevant really. Its about the local custodians beliefs. For those who think that you have the right to walk all over Uluru. Do you walk all over the mosques or churches you see? There's no diference really.
By the way, a sure sign of visitor activity at Uluru are through photos. By far the most pics are of the rock at sunset and dawn . Not of people climbing it.



A common and simplistic analogy, which ultimately falls apart when you consider the significant and fundamental differences between rights to access accessing natural formations and public land, versus private man-made structures. A far more accurate analogy would be considering how the public would react if , for example, the catholic church declared any sites in scripture, or land in sight of a church to be holy land, and off-limits to, say, gay couples. Because, yknow - it's all about "respecting" the custodians beliefs, right?

Also worth noting here that most churches and mosques already actually welcome all people in to walk their halls....so yea, there's a big difference really.

'Respecting indigenous beliefs' is the commonly used catch-all, but the reality is it's not 'respect' at all. Respect would be to allow indigenous folk to freely access the site to continue their own cultural practices in their own way, which is what is presently done. What's happening instead is enforced cultural appropriation - demanding that people adopt practices that are not their own, because one cultural group believes that for whatever reason ('we were here first' ?) they have the right to tell the others what to do. Certain people just seem to be inclined to spin it favorably in this case...yet when other cultural groups try similar (eg church views on marriage) everyone is quick to cry foul.

As for climb numbers and photos - as someone with experience with the tourism industry there, the stats on climber numbers are nearly entirely arbitrary. There's no way to gauge how many independent tourists choose to climb, but in the time I was there, any day it was open, there was always a steady stream. Mind you, many of the tour companies actually stand to GAIN from the climb being closed - they can then charge exorbitant fees to hold exclusive (and largely fabricated) 'cultural tours' around the base ...not that much of this money ever makes it back to the indigenous 'owners' whom it apparently 'respects'.

If this was really about respect, more would be done to reduce the white commercialism ravaging the surrounds, and help put some of its profits back into the indigenous communities in the area.
jdeks
Athrotaxis cupressoides
Athrotaxis cupressoides
 
Posts: 344
Joined: Sat 15 Mar, 2014 5:05 pm
Region: Australia

Re: uluru climbing to be banned from Oct 2019

Postby north-north-west » Sat 04 Nov, 2017 5:06 pm

jdeks wrote:
walkon wrote:Whether visitor numbers drop is irrellevant really. Its about the local custodians beliefs. For those who think that you have the right to walk all over Uluru. Do you walk all over the mosques or churches you see? There's no diference really.
By the way, a sure sign of visitor activity at Uluru are through photos. By far the most pics are of the rock at sunset and dawn . Not of people climbing it.

...rights to access accessing natural formations and public land...


How many times does this need to be said? Uluru-KataTjuta is not public land. It is legally owned by the local Anangu, and leased back to the government as a National Park, on the proviso that the traditional custodians have considerable input with regard to management, including the right to limit and/or prohibit access as they see fit.

Many of the rangers there are local Anangu people, and the tours are lead and managed by locals. The improvement in the ecosystems within the NP since the land was returned to Anangu custodianship is remarkable, and a glaring example of how much we have to learn about caring for the land.
"Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens."
User avatar
north-north-west
Lagarostrobos franklinii
Lagarostrobos franklinii
 
Posts: 11111
Joined: Thu 14 May, 2009 7:36 pm
Location: The Asylum
ASSOCIATED ORGANISATIONS: Social Misfits Anonymous
Region: Tasmania

Re: uluru climbing to be banned from Oct 2019

Postby jdeks » Sat 04 Nov, 2017 5:47 pm

north-north-west wrote:.
How many times does this need to be said? Uluru-KataTjuta is not public land. It is legally owned by the local Anangu, and leased back to the government as a National Park, on the proviso that the traditional custodians have considerable input with regard to management, including the right to limit and/or prohibit access as they see fit.

Many of the rangers there are local Anangu people, and the tours are lead and managed by locals.


Only once , and we all know already - chanting it over and over righteously doesn't make for some sort of justification-ad-naseum.

The issue here is that leasing it back to the Commonwealth as a public national park still makes it, in effect, public land. Theblands council *chose* to do this. To then decide part way through to cut the access of certain people based on cultural background is pretty dubious. Yes, there was provision for this in the lease based on a drop in climb numbers, but as stated before, this figure is almost entirely arbitrary and has no oversight. Meaning theyre more or less free to discriminate at will.

Yes, they atr legally within their rights to do so, but that doesn't make it any less discriminatory or any more about 'respect'. Its entirely political and its at the expense of ALL Australians.

Your last statement is just completely untrue. Maybe its what you read on the website or in the promotional videos, but if you spend any time up there you'd quickly see reality is very different. Many of the guides arentbeven Australian, 100% of them are touring off a strict script and have no knowledge outside of it.
jdeks
Athrotaxis cupressoides
Athrotaxis cupressoides
 
Posts: 344
Joined: Sat 15 Mar, 2014 5:05 pm
Region: Australia

Re: uluru climbing to be banned from Oct 2019

Postby Mark F » Sat 04 Nov, 2017 5:58 pm

I can only assume from your comments that the only value you place on Uluru is your right/ability to climb it - rather redolent of white male privilege. I assume you feel the same about other sacred mountains around the world that native peoples don't want climbed or other areas not to be entered/visited.
"Perfection is attained not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing more to remove".
User avatar
Mark F
Athrotaxis selaginoides
Athrotaxis selaginoides
 
Posts: 1964
Joined: Mon 19 Sep, 2011 8:14 pm
Region: Australian Capital Territory
Gender: Male

Re: uluru climbing to be banned from Oct 2019

Postby jdeks » Sat 04 Nov, 2017 6:25 pm

Mark F wrote:I can only assume from your comments that the only value you place on Uluru is your right/ability to climb it - rather redolent of white male privilege. I assume you feel the same about other sacred mountains around the world that native peoples don't want climbed or other areas not to be entered/visited.



I can only guess from your assumptions about a) my skin color and gender and b) my consequent values, that your main stake in this issue is to climb atop the moral high ground yourself. Hard to preach respect with your prejudices hanging out, friend.

But to clarify - my issue is, having spent far longer there than your average tourist,that I am disgusted by the present commercialization and exploitation of one of our nation's natural wonders, and how racial politics is being used to create a strawman, allowing the rich get richer off the backs of people the people they claim to respect, as they hide behind a narrative we're all expected not to question.

I won't make assumptions about what your experiences are, but I would encourage anyone to go and actually to some of the indigenous people they're presuming to speak for here. Spend a night in Docker River and come tell me how high on their list of concerns Uluru climbers are.
jdeks
Athrotaxis cupressoides
Athrotaxis cupressoides
 
Posts: 344
Joined: Sat 15 Mar, 2014 5:05 pm
Region: Australia

Re: uluru climbing to be banned from Oct 2019

Postby taswegian » Sat 04 Nov, 2017 7:32 pm

Well I don't normally buy into these emotive arguments, but.
I didn't read too much into Mark's comment. But it wasn't pointed towards me I acknowledge.

What drew me in here was your comment Jdeks 'disgusted by the present commercialization and exploitation of one of our nation's natural wonders
When it comes to that aspect of human activity it doesn't matter what colour, creed, race, tribe etc you are that is always a dark side of society we could all live without.

And yet here, in Tasmania, that is some of the very things the sacred owners of traditional sites delve into and embrace.
I'm not going to name them but it's not hard to find on the web, and frankly is what turns me off from this whole issue of Aboriginality, sacred lands, cultural inheritance.
Also I've personally been engaged with their members obtaining cultural reports for financial gain. Some of those left me thoroughly disgusted by the contents and style of writing, even down to sheer duplication complete with photos for a different address. I discovered that one as I had a copy of both reports.

Thankfully Australia has many true blue, dinky die, fair dinkum Aussie Aborigines who've carved out fulfilling lives giving back to the communities around them.

Then there's others of the same origins, who with a trait common to all humanity, will never be satisfied and make news not from good works but from fleecing the very culture they say they belong to, subscribe to and live by!

I grew up in a home of a Changi POW.
In Dad I saw a person who had endured much hardship in very cruel and barbaric times but came through and out of that experience with no bitterness right through to his end in his 90th year.
A man who had to leave his beloved country where he worked and enjoyed, because of that incarceration that left him too weak to do his previous job. And move to a foreign land where his qualifications weren't recognised so literally had to carve out a new beginning.
He'd been dispossessed of his house (a bomb came through the roof but never exploded), land, his job, even a son who died during his time in prison. Does that sound familiar?
It does to me.
That man, and others I've watched on TV demonstrate life doesn't have to be a consequence of 'my hard times and this is why I'm so miserable'.
There's another uplifting outcome that many, including the Aboriginal communities could embrace and find meaning, purpose and life.
If some of those lovely people can, and do, then let others learn from that, just as I did from my Dad.

Jdeks I only say all this as I can see potential for this thread to turn nasty and when you posted the comment something inside me tugged at the heart strings.
Last edited by taswegian on Sun 05 Nov, 2017 10:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
taswegian
Phyllocladus aspleniifolius
Phyllocladus aspleniifolius
 
Posts: 831
Joined: Tue 27 Jul, 2010 8:34 pm
Region: Tasmania
Gender: Male

Re: uluru climbing to be banned from Oct 2019

Postby Mark F » Sat 04 Nov, 2017 8:00 pm

I am one of those privileged white males. In my younger days it was just how things were - I was oblivious - but over the years, though many and varied experiences I have become aware of my status and past ignorance. I have learnt that there are many ways of seeing the world and while the indigenous view of country is alien to the western view of spirituality it is as equally valid as my own.

jdeks - I have no problem with you railing against the exploitation of out natural wonders - I tend to agree with that sentiment but when you have been oppressed as a people for so many decades and now centuries I do not blame them for seeking whatever means are available to redress the balance. Our age places wealth as an important determinant of social acceptance and advancement. Given that prior to the handing back of ownership there were motels and campgrounds around the base of Uluru I suspect it was not the indigenous population that were exploiting the resource. There are few other resources that could provide any form of economic well-being.

@taswegian - like you I have also seen people fictionalise aspects of indigenous identity and oppose it, but so often it an unfortunate reaction to forces that seek to diminish every aspect of indigenous cultural identity.
"Perfection is attained not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing more to remove".
User avatar
Mark F
Athrotaxis selaginoides
Athrotaxis selaginoides
 
Posts: 1964
Joined: Mon 19 Sep, 2011 8:14 pm
Region: Australian Capital Territory
Gender: Male

Re: uluru climbing to be banned from Oct 2019

Postby geoskid » Sat 04 Nov, 2017 9:58 pm

jdeks wrote:
Mark F wrote:I can only assume from your comments that the only value you place on Uluru is your right/ability to climb it - rather redolent of white male privilege. I assume you feel the same about other sacred mountains around the world that native peoples don't want climbed or other areas not to be entered/visited.



I can only guess from your assumptions about a) my skin color and gender and b) my consequent values, that your main stake in this issue is to climb atop the moral high ground yourself. Hard to preach respect with your prejudices hanging out, friend.

But to clarify - my issue is, having spent far longer there than your average tourist,that I am disgusted by the present commercialization and exploitation of one of our nation's natural wonders, and how racial politics is being used to create a strawman, allowing the rich get richer off the backs of people the people they claim to respect, as they hide behind a narrative we're all expected not to question.

I won't make assumptions about what your experiences are, but I would encourage anyone to go and actually to some of the indigenous people they're presuming to speak for here. Spend a night in Docker River and come tell me how high on their list of concerns Uluru climbers are.

Yes Jdeks. I lived in Alice with my wife for 5 yrs 23 yrs ago. I went and worked at Kiwirrkurra, out of Alice in Nov 2016. The myth about these people being connected to 'country ' is bollocks - only perpetuated by lefty arty wankers with no real understanding of anthropology.
Edit - I also don't accept the concept of race - I think it's bollocks. We are the same species inhabiting different environments.
Critical Thinking.. the awakening of the intellect to the study of itself.
http://www.criticalthinking.org/
geoskid
Phyllocladus aspleniifolius
Phyllocladus aspleniifolius
 
Posts: 882
Joined: Sun 27 Apr, 2008 1:56 pm
Region: Tasmania
Gender: Male

Re: uluru climbing to be banned from Oct 2019

Postby geoskid » Sat 04 Nov, 2017 10:14 pm

Mark F wrote: I have learnt that there are many ways of seeing the world and while the indigenous view of country is alien to the western view of spirituality it is as equally valid as my own.


Mark, do you accept that the world is a certain way? This is a proper binary question. That is -yes or no?
Critical Thinking.. the awakening of the intellect to the study of itself.
http://www.criticalthinking.org/
geoskid
Phyllocladus aspleniifolius
Phyllocladus aspleniifolius
 
Posts: 882
Joined: Sun 27 Apr, 2008 1:56 pm
Region: Tasmania
Gender: Male

Re: uluru climbing to be banned from Oct 2019

Postby photohiker » Sun 05 Nov, 2017 12:19 am

geoskid wrote:The myth about these people being connected to 'country ' is bollocks - only perpetuated by lefty arty wankers with no real understanding of anthropology.
Edit - I also don't accept the concept of race - I think it's bollocks. We are the same species inhabiting different environments.


Hmm. I have spent time in the Pitjantjara lands, actually just south of the rock in SA.

We spent time with Aboriginal people in tiny towns and on the land. The people we met living on the land are 100% connected to the land, most of the 'town' people (not really towns, but small community areas) are also connected to the land. In the community areas, there is more knowledge and blending between the Aboriginal and white people's preferences but the people we met are nothing like city folk.

Anthropology: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropology
Anthropology is the study of various aspects of humans within past and present societies. Social anthropology and cultural anthropology study the norms and values of societies. Linguistic anthropology studies how language affects social life. Biological or physical anthropology studies the biological development of humans.

Seems you are way off the chart on Anthropology and race. Definitely not bollocks.
Michael
User avatar
photohiker
Lagarostrobos franklinii
Lagarostrobos franklinii
 
Posts: 3110
Joined: Sun 17 May, 2009 12:31 pm
Location: Adelaide, dreaming up where to go next.

Re: uluru climbing to be banned from Oct 2019

Postby ribuck » Sun 05 Nov, 2017 2:30 am

Uluru is aboriginal-owned. It is currently leased to the National Park with an explicit provision that climbing is not prohibited. Therefore anybody who chooses to have one last climb can do so freely (subject to the current policies: no climbing at night, when too hot, when too wet, when too windy, during rescues, during cultural events).

After Oct 2019, climbing will be prohibited, and I would expect people to respect the terms of that prohibition, just as I expect Uluru's owners to respect the current terms of the lease. Which indeed they do: they ask people not to climb, but acknowledge and respect that the decision is up to the individual.
User avatar
ribuck
Phyllocladus aspleniifolius
Phyllocladus aspleniifolius
 
Posts: 970
Joined: Wed 15 May, 2013 3:47 am
Region: Other Country
Gender: Male

Re: uluru climbing to be banned from Oct 2019

Postby jdeks » Sun 05 Nov, 2017 5:54 am

Mark F wrote:...I have learnt that there are many ways of seeing the world and while the indigenous view of country is alien to the western view of spirituality it is as equally valid as my own.


There's the thing though Mark - this move specifically violates such egalitarian views, and enforces the notion that indigenous spirituality must be regarded as the supreme authority and any other views are invalid at best, or 'racist' and 'privileged' at worst. One-way equality isn't really equality, and certainly not respect.

It's worth noting too, that there are a substantial number of other indigenous sites in this country that, according to their views, were off-limits to women. Yet we no push to restrict access based on gender from those advocating 'respect' of their culture..

Mark F wrote:...I do not blame them for seeking whatever means are available to redress the balance. Our age places wealth as an important determinant of social acceptance and advancement. Given that prior to the handing back of ownership there were motels and campgrounds around the base of Uluru I suspect it was not the indigenous population that were exploiting the resource. There are few other resources that could provide any form of economic well-being.


Again though - I am yet to see anyone offer an explanation as to how this actually does anything in a practical sense to help everyday indigenous folk in the area. Tell me how closing the climb (potentially lowering park numbers and associated revenue) will improve roads that are closed for months each year, understaffed or absent health facilities, lack of schools and lack of employment? These are the unsolved problems that are literally killing their people.

It's all well and good to say things have 'improved' since hand-back in terms of removal of motels and campgrounds, but again, the reality is it's all just been moved 5km north and grown, outside the arbitrary park boundaries, and thus largely outside the control of the Land Council. Attempts for them to buy into the resorts market have been riddled with mismanagement, poor profits and allegations of 'disappearing' money. Locals still get an absolute pittance off the gate fees from the rest of the multi-million dollar industry, pouring tourists in by the busload for $300+ -a-head tours, on Parks-developed walks and sites that eclipse the old motels and campgrounds. The commercialization only grows each year, while the communities languish...but it's 'respectful' so long as you don't climb. Apparently.


The climb is just a symbolic bugbear for a few vocal people in their own positions of privilege, who are actually failing to respect the people they claim to speak for, by not using their post to push for more useful change.
jdeks
Athrotaxis cupressoides
Athrotaxis cupressoides
 
Posts: 344
Joined: Sat 15 Mar, 2014 5:05 pm
Region: Australia

Re: uluru climbing to be banned from Oct 2019

Postby GPSGuided » Sun 05 Nov, 2017 7:00 am

Would closing the whole park be appropriate to protect and respect all sensitive sites? Problems solved cleanly and consistently.
Just move it!
User avatar
GPSGuided
Lagarostrobos franklinii
Lagarostrobos franklinii
 
Posts: 6779
Joined: Mon 13 May, 2013 2:37 pm
Location: Sydney
Region: New South Wales

Re: uluru climbing to be banned from Oct 2019

Postby Mark F » Sun 05 Nov, 2017 8:41 am

geoskid wrote:Mark, do you accept that the world is a certain way? This is a proper binary question. That is -yes or no?

With a non binary answer. Yes - physically the world is "a certain way" but No - how people perceive the world varies greatly. Less variation between people with the same cultural makeup and more so where there is greater variation in cultural identity.
"Perfection is attained not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing more to remove".
User avatar
Mark F
Athrotaxis selaginoides
Athrotaxis selaginoides
 
Posts: 1964
Joined: Mon 19 Sep, 2011 8:14 pm
Region: Australian Capital Territory
Gender: Male

Re: uluru climbing to be banned from Oct 2019

Postby north-north-west » Sun 05 Nov, 2017 9:31 am

AAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH!

There's no point. Just no *&%$#! point trying to get certain ideas through to people whose world view is set in concrete.
I have only one more comment to make: there is no such thing as "one-way equality". By it's very definition, 'equality' means everyone is included.
"Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens."
User avatar
north-north-west
Lagarostrobos franklinii
Lagarostrobos franklinii
 
Posts: 11111
Joined: Thu 14 May, 2009 7:36 pm
Location: The Asylum
ASSOCIATED ORGANISATIONS: Social Misfits Anonymous
Region: Tasmania

Re: uluru climbing to be banned from Oct 2019

Postby Davidf61 » Sun 05 Nov, 2017 9:41 am

Bit of a tender discussion isn't it.....

I like to think I've seen a fair chunk of the world, and I've also been to many, many places where it may be of significant cultural heritage to the local population. And it's surprising just how many are freely available to the general public to peruse. Be they naturally occurring ie Grand Canyon or of, say, religious importance such as the many major churches [ all denominations ] throughout Europe.

Many times there may be some sort of introduction or awareness program prior to visit, then it's usually yours to experience. I think many groups WANT to share what they have. The Grand Canyon stood out, the traditional owners of the area we visited [ Hualapai Nation? ] provided an excellent explanation of what was so important to them, and then we spent some considerable time deep down in the place, I believe getting a genuine feel for what they believed in. A strong sense of both the spirituality and physical wonder of the place.

I don't see why it should be any different for ULURU, if someone wants you to understand what is so important to them, well they have to open up a little and show you. For some simply observing from a distance isn't quite going to cut it. And from an economic viewpoint, the [significant] income generated is no doubt important in raising educational/health/living standards for those traditional owners, and would be sorely missed.

Did a quick straw poll at work, asking if people who hadn't been before would still go, overwhelmingly negative response. That's not good.
Davidf61
Athrotaxis cupressoides
Athrotaxis cupressoides
 
Posts: 143
Joined: Wed 10 Apr, 2013 5:46 pm
Region: Western Australia
Gender: Male

Re: uluru climbing to be banned from Oct 2019

Postby jdeks » Sun 05 Nov, 2017 10:33 am

Davidf61 wrote:Bit of a tender discussion isn't it.....


Only on one side, it would seem.

I'm watching the same discussion unfold on a few other places. Same as here, it seems many on one side of the discussion considers the mere presence of other perspectives condemnable beyond (or before) question, and the vitriol and character attacks seem to come largely from those demanding people 'respect' others. The irony seems lost on them, though...

north-north-west wrote:AAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH!

There's no point. Just no *&%$#! point trying to get certain ideas through to people whose world view is set in concrete.
I have only one more comment to make: there is no such thing as "one-way equality". By it's very definition, 'equality' means everyone is included.
jdeks
Athrotaxis cupressoides
Athrotaxis cupressoides
 
Posts: 344
Joined: Sat 15 Mar, 2014 5:05 pm
Region: Australia

Re: uluru climbing to be banned from Oct 2019

Postby Lophophaps » Sun 05 Nov, 2017 10:43 am

Regardless of what anyone may want or believe, the Anangu have the right to decide how the place is managed; it's their land. The Uluru-Kata Tjuta National Park Board of Management decided they will close the climb to the top of Uluru on 26 October 2019. The perceived rights and wrongs of this decision don't matter much. Comparing Uluru with other places does not seem to me to matter much. The decision has been made, and as climbing numbers are falling the economic impact will be minimal. Less people will die climbing.

Many will be unaware that there's a rock climb on Uluru, the Kangaroos Tail
http://www.chockstone.org/Forum/Forum.a ... PagePos=20
User avatar
Lophophaps
Auctorita modica
Auctorita modica
 
Posts: 2538
Joined: Wed 09 Nov, 2011 9:45 am
Region: Victoria
Gender: Male

Re: uluru climbing to be banned from Oct 2019

Postby Mark F » Sun 05 Nov, 2017 10:49 am

jdeks wrote:
Mark F wrote:...I have learnt that there are many ways of seeing the world and while the indigenous view of country is alien to the western view of spirituality it is as equally valid as my own.


There's the thing though Mark - this move specifically violates such egalitarian views, and enforces the notion that indigenous spirituality must be regarded as the supreme authority and any other views are invalid at best, or 'racist' and 'privileged' at worst. One-way equality isn't really equality, and certainly not respect.

It's worth noting too, that there are a substantial number of other indigenous sites in this country that, according to their views, were off-limits to women. Yet we no push to restrict access based on gender from those advocating 'respect' of their culture..

Mark F wrote:...I do not blame them for seeking whatever means are available to redress the balance. Our age places wealth as an important determinant of social acceptance and advancement. Given that prior to the handing back of ownership there were motels and campgrounds around the base of Uluru I suspect it was not the indigenous population that were exploiting the resource. There are few other resources that could provide any form of economic well-being.


Again though - I am yet to see anyone offer an explanation as to how this actually does anything in a practical sense to help everyday indigenous folk in the area. Tell me how closing the climb (potentially lowering park numbers and associated revenue) will improve roads that are closed for months each year, understaffed or absent health facilities, lack of schools and lack of employment? These are the unsolved problems that are literally killing their people.

It's all well and good to say things have 'improved' since hand-back in terms of removal of motels and campgrounds, but again, the reality is it's all just been moved 5km north and grown, outside the arbitrary park boundaries, and thus largely outside the control of the Land Council. Attempts for them to buy into the resorts market have been riddled with mismanagement, poor profits and allegations of 'disappearing' money. Locals still get an absolute pittance off the gate fees from the rest of the multi-million dollar industry, pouring tourists in by the busload for $300+ -a-head tours, on Parks-developed walks and sites that eclipse the old motels and campgrounds. The commercialization only grows each year, while the communities languish...but it's 'respectful' so long as you don't climb. Apparently.


The climb is just a symbolic bugbear for a few vocal people in their own positions of privilege, who are actually failing to respect the people they claim to speak for, by not using their post to push for more useful change.


If you visit me in my home or I visit you then there are some behaviours that the visitor is expected to follow. For instance I ask visitors not to smoke on the property, I don't expect visitors to poke around in private areas of the house without my express permission. I don't see how the ban on climbing Uluru is really that different.
"Perfection is attained not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing more to remove".
User avatar
Mark F
Athrotaxis selaginoides
Athrotaxis selaginoides
 
Posts: 1964
Joined: Mon 19 Sep, 2011 8:14 pm
Region: Australian Capital Territory
Gender: Male

Re: uluru climbing to be banned from Oct 2019

Postby jdeks » Sun 05 Nov, 2017 11:12 am

Mark F wrote:If you visit me in my home or I visit you then there are some behaviours that the visitor is expected to follow. For instance I ask visitors not to smoke on the property, I don't expect visitors to poke around in private areas of the house without my express permission. I don't see how the ban on climbing Uluru is really that different.


One is a private domicile, requiring labor and resource investment to even exist in the first place. Ownership and authority is thus inherently implied.

The other is a piece of the planet, that's been here long before any human and will still be there long after. Which, currently, is leased to the Australian public.

This would be more like your landlord rocking up halfway through your lease and saying your wife can't set foot in the front yard because his religion says so and she wasn't there much anyway.

Lophophaps wrote:Regardless of what anyone may want or believe, the Anangu have the right to decide how the place is managed; it's their land. The Uluru-Kata Tjuta National Park Board of Management decided they will close the climb to the top of Uluru on 26 October 2019. The perceived rights and wrongs of this decision don't matter much. Comparing Uluru with other places does not seem to me to matter much. The decision has been made, and as climbing numbers are falling the economic impact will be minimal. Less people will die climbing.



I wonder - would you advocate people take the same apathetic stance towards the proposed Falls Creek - Mnt Hotham crossing? Coal-Seam Gas?

Bad decisions can and have been overturned by public opinion before. And as I said earlier, the claim that 'numbers are falling' is unreliable, and yet that number is currently being used for invoking the climbing ban.
jdeks
Athrotaxis cupressoides
Athrotaxis cupressoides
 
Posts: 344
Joined: Sat 15 Mar, 2014 5:05 pm
Region: Australia

Re: uluru climbing to be banned from Oct 2019

Postby Mark F » Sun 05 Nov, 2017 11:37 am

jdeks - you seem to be suggesting that the Anangu people have no right to decide what happens on their property. The parallel you raise in the Falls Ck - Mt Hotham crossing is about people objecting to the private takeover of public land that is currently available to all to enjoy. Is it your view that the Anangu should not have been given title? Are you against all native title?
"Perfection is attained not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing more to remove".
User avatar
Mark F
Athrotaxis selaginoides
Athrotaxis selaginoides
 
Posts: 1964
Joined: Mon 19 Sep, 2011 8:14 pm
Region: Australian Capital Territory
Gender: Male

Re: uluru climbing to be banned from Oct 2019

Postby jdeks » Sun 05 Nov, 2017 11:59 am

Mark F wrote:jdeks - you seem to be suggesting that the Anangu people have no right to decide what happens on their property. The parallel you raise in the Falls Ck - Mt Hotham crossing is about people objecting to the private takeover of public land that is currently available to all to enjoy. Is it your view that the Anangu should not have been given title? Are you against all native title?


No, not against it all, nor have I said that at any point.

As I said before, my problem is with the mismanagement of title lands that have been leased back the the Commonwealth. In this case, primarily the commercialization and lack of fair remuneration to the land owners, and secondly, the use of unfair, token policies to obscure the big problems.

If the Uluru/Kata-Tjuta land was to be kept wholly private and under the sole governance of of its traditional owners, I would have precisely zero problems if zero people were even permitted to stand at its base. It'd be personally disappointing for me, but it'd be fair. That said, those living on the lands would then receive none of the benefits gained from opening it up. As it happens, they DID choose to open it up, with a lease to the public. I think in turn its fair to give the public say in how the land is used, at least for the term of the lease.
jdeks
Athrotaxis cupressoides
Athrotaxis cupressoides
 
Posts: 344
Joined: Sat 15 Mar, 2014 5:05 pm
Region: Australia

Re: uluru climbing to be banned from Oct 2019

Postby Orion » Sun 05 Nov, 2017 12:23 pm

Lophophaps wrote:Regardless of what anyone may want or believe, the Anangu have the right to decide how the place is managed; it's their land. The Uluru-Kata Tjuta National Park Board of Management decided they will close the climb to the top of Uluru on 26 October 2019. The perceived rights and wrongs of this decision don't matter much. Comparing Uluru with other places does not seem to me to matter much. The decision has been made, and as climbing numbers are falling the economic impact will be minimal. Less people will die climbing.

Many will be unaware that there's a rock climb on Uluru, the Kangaroos Tail
http://www.chockstone.org/Forum/Forum.a ... PagePos=20


Thanks for that. I've been wondering since the standard route up Uluru/Ayers sounds like a steep walk, maybe akin to the cables on Half Dome. But the Kangaroos Tail doesn't look like all that appealing as a rock climb though! :-)

From a foreign tourist's perspective -- I didn't even know that hiking up to the top of the rock was allowed. When I was in the area earlier this year and contemplated visiting, reaching the summit was not even slightly important to us. The overriding concern was whether or not it was worth putting up with what was apparently a giant clusterf**k of a tourist trap in order to have a brief experience seeing it.
Orion
Athrotaxis selaginoides
Athrotaxis selaginoides
 
Posts: 1716
Joined: Mon 02 Feb, 2009 12:33 pm
Region: Other Country

Re: uluru climbing to be banned from Oct 2019

Postby LachlanB » Mon 06 Nov, 2017 3:46 pm

Davidf61 wrote:I've also been to many, many places where it may be of significant cultural heritage to the local population. And it's surprising just how many are freely available to the general public to peruse.
(...)
I don't see why it should be any different for ULURU, if someone wants you to understand what is so important to them, well they have to open up a little and show you. For some simply observing from a distance isn't quite going to cut it. .


There are many places of significant Indigenous cultural heritage we are all perfectly free to visit. I don't see why there's a problem with just this one place being placed beyond public access. If a church or historical site requested that I did not enter, out of respect I would follow that request. Likewise, I respect the connection of the Anangu to Country, and didn't climb it because of their request. They're not asking us to leave their Country altogether, just that we respect Indigenous views to this one activity at one site. You can still get an extremely fulfilling experience from talking to the traditional owners and walking around Uluru.
LachlanB
Athrotaxis cupressoides
Athrotaxis cupressoides
 
Posts: 340
Joined: Mon 21 Apr, 2014 5:07 pm
Region: New South Wales
Gender: Male

Re: uluru climbing to be banned from Oct 2019

Postby slparker » Tue 07 Nov, 2017 11:22 am

jdeks wrote:[

The issue here is that leasing it back to the Commonwealth as a public national park still makes it, in effect, public land.


No it doesn't - please show us some kind of precedent or determination that justifies your statement.

In any case, Parks Australia is obliged to operate under the auspices of the EPBC Act (1999) and the terms of the lease. This Act stipulates acknowledgement of indigenous Cultural Values within National Parks - so even if it was public land, which it isn't, Parks Australia would still be restricting access to sites of cultural value.

Given that this is leased by Parks Australia to land owned by someone else, there is no reasonable case for stating that it is 'in effect public land'. It demonstrably is not. It is land managed by parks Australia under the terms of the lease.

See this document which contains information about the terms of the lease.. I draw your attention to clause 2.7 (p.40) and 3.1.1 which describes conditions where the Owners might exercise their rights to restrict access.

https://www.environment.gov.au/system/f ... t-plan.pdf
slparker
Athrotaxis selaginoides
Athrotaxis selaginoides
 
Posts: 1081
Joined: Fri 25 Apr, 2008 10:59 pm

Re: uluru climbing to be banned from Oct 2019

Postby Nuts » Tue 07 Nov, 2017 1:32 pm

I can imagine management decisions aren't exactly egalitarian from any quarter. And with the mention of EOI proposals for Uluru, a couple of years back, i'd imagine further tourism ingress will continue with a greed driven tourism agenda and little real respect for any intrinsic value in national parks, no mind lip service to indigenous culture. Outside park boundaries is a free for all but at least (for parks) it's outside boundaries.

From a thoroughly blue-eyed perspective, I reckon it's great there is somewhere within a park considered out-of-bounds, if just for the sake of a healthy parks future, preferably where everything is not valued by it's usefulness or 'our' ability to access.. (for a set of reasons far less definable than cultural or spiritual persuasion) Personally, subject to an indigenous past, i'm not sure i'd be so generous, could very well feel justified and entitled to recurrent funding so as to lock the gates, then dictate exactly what will happen on our country, or whether to renew a lease at all.

Tourist numbers at Uluru have been falling for many years (despite the climb open). It seems a tourism future is not going to be the answer if it isn't already?
Tourism business is difficult enough without expecting competitive or managerial expertise from within any relatively small community.

From a white perspective, in a co-habiting happy-ever-after, the term 'celebrate' seems a key hope for healthy or continued indigenous culture.




http://theconversation.com/why-is-it-st ... -u-u-58729
"The guides are all complaining there's mobile reception and hot showers," Godfrey laughs.
Nuts
Lagarostrobos franklinii
Lagarostrobos franklinii
 
Posts: 7954
Joined: Sat 05 Apr, 2008 12:22 pm
Region: Tasmania

Next

Return to Between Bushwalks

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests