Gun control vs people power?

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Gun control vs people power?

Postby Davidf61 » Thu 15 Mar, 2018 7:58 pm

I thought this was interesting as both MEC [ Canada ] and REI [ USA ] are very big players indeed, and there is quite a list of brands here that suddenly might be losing a whole lot of store exposure and or sales. I visited both stores while over there last August, they're pretty epic in scale compared to what's over here. Thoughts?

https://gearjunkie.com/mec-vista-outdoors-gun-debate
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby taipan821 » Thu 15 Mar, 2018 8:19 pm

from a sporting shooter perspective I don't think much would change, camelbak is distributed by seatosummit over here.

But, from a shooter perspective, does this mean we'll have a surplus of ammo? the ammunition producers might push any excess stock through their australian distributer NIOA
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby Hallu » Thu 15 Mar, 2018 8:30 pm

The thing is, this could scare Americans that they might "lose" their "fun" hobby of shooting stuff. If you look at Europe, Japan, or Australia, people still hunt, and they still shoot for sports. Often you hear in the US the argument that guns is in their culture, that they still want to hunt and shoot stuff. But you can still do that and have gun control... The key is to have a proper background check, to limit the number of guns per person drastically, stop the sale of "protection" guns, that kind of stuff. They basically need to do exactly what Australia did in the 90's...If you want protection you can still buy pepper spray and tasers in other countries with tough gun laws... and at least those can't kill someone accidentally.
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby GPSGuided » Thu 15 Mar, 2018 9:12 pm

This is the end result of brainwashed with cowboy and Indian movies in their childhood, then in the younger generation Doom, Wolfenstein and Call of Duty amongst others. They can't live without guns. The boycott won't last long and nothing significant will change there.
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby taipan821 » Thu 15 Mar, 2018 10:04 pm

GPSGuided wrote:This is the end result of brainwashed with cowboy and Indian movies in their childhood, then in the younger generation Doom, Wolfenstein and Call of Duty amongst others. They can't live without guns.


That Damn 2nd Amendment and their insistance that they need guns in case the englanders return.
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby Avatar » Fri 16 Mar, 2018 12:21 am

The 2nd amendment was adopted in 1791, a time when all long arms and pistols were single shot, slow to load and awkward muzzle loading, powder and ball weapons. Not the sort of thing an individual could easily use to commit a massacre. Technology has moved on, the context in which the law was drafted has moved on but the law there hasn't. It is a post-revolution 1791 law drafted in a 1791 political and technological context coming from English common law to bear arms which goes back to the days when citizens were expected to maintain a requisite annual amount of archery practice for the defense of the realm. Long bows and arrows. It is a pity the amendment didn't prescribe the type of weapons that were the subject of the "right": single shot muzzle loading powder and ball long arms. The law is an *&%$#! and its custodians have negligently failed in their job of maintaining it as fit for purpose for the people. Only US Constitutional change can now rectify the nightmare horror situation the Americans find themselves in. If the Constitution cannot be changed then that is a significant failure of the Constitution to respond to the political needs of the society, it's political primacy will diminish and they will then just have to learn to get on with their day when these events occur. The US political system is doing a great job of appearing to be paralysed, ineffective and sclerotically frozen in a previous era and it simply cannot respond to the challenges of current technology and political need. So far Trump is a big disappointment on this issue and has slid into the swamp with all the others. I am betting on no change at all to US gun laws and the shops' laudible self-restraint will eventually dissolve under the relentless discipline of commercial competition despite whatever good will has motivated it. The US students' protests offer the only hope for the future - if they don't fizzle out. Another point is that the main justification of the law to support a militia defence is now much weakened if not unviable due again to revolutionary weapons technology since that law. Any ruthless invading or tyrannical force could just deploy chemical weapons on any population that supported a militia. Infrastructure may even be kept intact. There are places in the world full of militias with access to assault weapons where exactly this has happened and is happening right now.
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby bearded bushwalker » Fri 16 Mar, 2018 1:49 pm

I see the big difference to 1791 and today is the mindset of the people. Nowdays people are more demanding, wanting what they want at the expense of others. In 1791 politicians served the country, now they want to get into power for what they can get (be this power, money, reputation etc.) There seems to be a lessening of personal responsibility for ones actions and more demanding of what they want. This whatever I want/demand driven lifestyle is (in my opinion) what had driven things like the school shooting in America (I was expelled so I demand they suffer), vehicles being driven into crowds and even here in Australia the Childers backpacker fire (an antisocial person was asked to leave and returned at night to set a fire) Add the prevalent 'my demands are most important' attitude to those who spend their waking time playing 'first person shooter' video games and it is inevitable that some will go off the rails and translate these games into real life. (there are simply too many people involved for it to not happen) As to how we address the attitude that needs to change I have no idea, I just get frustrated when law makers target the law abiding members of society (the more compliant, low hanging fruit) rather than those committing the crime, who are admittedly a harder target. We already have plenty of laws about murdering people.
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby wayno » Fri 16 Mar, 2018 2:57 pm

america are habituated to owning guns.... to a lot of them owning a gun is an essential part of life. they reinforce each others belief in the necessity to own guns..
a lot of them take offense at the govt limiting their ability to own them..
after every mass shooting, gun sales go up.
i've seen a lot of debate on american forums about hiking with guns. some people think guns are essential on a hike because of the potential dangers, animals or people....
but a lot of hikers are adamant they don't need guns.... its very rare you hear about violence to hikers in america... and you have bear spray for the big predators which can actually be more effective than a gun, you dont need to be as accurate.
in NZ every gun owner has to have their gun under lock and key in a locked case or cabinet when at home with the bolt and ammo in a seperate location. semi automatic weapons are banned. it's illegal to travel with a loaded weapon.
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby GPSGuided » Fri 16 Mar, 2018 3:00 pm

All fields of knowledge change, even interpretations of the Bible change with the times. The gun lobby’s hijacking of their enshrined 2nd Amendment is a joke. Yet, there are plenty to joke about with that entity. It’s their domestic affair and what’s a foreigner’s business to interfere but learn the lessons.
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby north-north-west » Fri 16 Mar, 2018 3:08 pm

I'm still trying to work out the title. Gun control is people power.
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby Gadgetgeek » Fri 16 Mar, 2018 5:42 pm

This is how I come to look at it. (I'm a MEC member) neither of those companies cater to shooting sports. In fact a few years back MEC did a run of packs in ACU pattern digi-cam, and they were pretty much ignored, and whoever decided to do that ate some crow.

The biggest hindrance to the US getting any real gun control laws is the retailers. If they decided to, they could put in place a private industry solution quite quickly and a large part of the 2ndA stuff would not be a problem. It is a more complex problem than just the 2ndA, there is civil liability law, and a lot of "religion" going on. Add to that we have very poor stats as to who is actually buying guns, so we don't have demographic info to get an idea on it. Add to that the politicized nature of it at the moment, and how vocal people get on the internet, (an atheist, a paleo and a vegan all enter a chatroom...)

So with that said, when a large retailer decides to put their own policies in place, they will either be rewarded, or punished. In my case, I'm glad that MEC took the stand they did, as it will cause the large brand management companies to re-evaluate having these brands in their portfolio, or look at ways to start helping the problem. As to owning guns, that's something I also support, but I'm not planning on going to MEC to buy a gun, and if I do end up owning any guns here in Australia, they will almost certainly be from lithgow. I don't need MEC and REI to support firearm brands. Those brands made their bed, they can lie in it, and if some have to go away so that the others start pushing for some reality, then by all means, I'm for it. I mean if Austin Martin won't sell certain cars unless you are willing to take their track course, and you only drive it under their supervision, why can't I take an advanced handgunning course from Glock where they assess my fitness to own one of their products? Seems like a free market solution.
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby johnk1 » Fri 16 Mar, 2018 7:54 pm

I'm with NNW ???????
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby Lindsay » Sat 17 Mar, 2018 1:51 pm

I note the the gun lobby in the US is always going on about their 'right' to bear arms as per their second amendment. what they never seem to mention is that this amendment also mentions the requirement to be a member of 'a well regulated militia'....so what army reserve units are all these people members of? :roll:
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby Mark F » Sat 17 Mar, 2018 3:25 pm

nnw - I think the title is around the wrong way. It could be revised to "Gun power is people control".
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby GPSGuided » Sat 17 Mar, 2018 6:48 pm

The other factor I'd suggest is the fact that in US led Western societies, we are all empowered and have a great sense of entitlement as an individual. As such, many have a stronger sense of 'I am entitled' than in the past. Owning guns and other rights are all part of that.
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby Moondog55 » Sat 17 Mar, 2018 9:33 pm

I don't think it is as simple as that. We are not thinking like people in the USA where some very smart people take the second amendment very seriously.
I have a number of good American friends, some support the current state of affairs others do not but even the smartest and most compassionate and anti-assault rifle amongst them are not readily willing to give up those enshrined rights, these people are not afraid of thieves and robbers or being invaded by China or the Russians.
These people are afraid of the Government and they see these rights as a constraint on the power of a highly centralised and disengaged group of people, as the husband of the daughter of a Holocaust survivor I see their point, I really do. When they come for me in the middle of the night I would like to be able to fight back too
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Gun control vs people power?

Postby GPSGuided » Sun 18 Mar, 2018 8:13 am

Moondog55 wrote:These people are afraid of the Government and they see these rights as a constraint on the power of a highly centralised and disengaged group of people, as the husband of the daughter of a Holocaust survivor I see their point, I really do. When they come for me in the middle of the night I would like to be able to fight back too

They have clever legal people to spin their case to the Supreme Court, but over the reasoning you just stated, they are stupid! Through human history, when has a gun ban stopped people power from toppling governments, both good and bad? How many corrupt govts have they toppled or corrected in the US? Sorry to say, but people thinking like that have been brainwashed or just plain stupid.

BTW, those opposition groups around the world not only have guns when they are not supposed to, they also have RPG, TOW anti- tank missiles, armoured vehicles, assassination drones, night vision gears, artilleries and the list goes on... Do you think the might of US govt controlled military can be defeated just by AR15 assault rifles? Sorry, those shooters just want to have ‘fun’ with their guns and fill their egos.
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby Moondog55 » Sun 18 Mar, 2018 8:49 am

I'm well aware of the lethality of modern weaponry, even if not current. Probably much more so than most of our membership.
So actually are most of those who support things the way they are in the USA, they simply feel differently. Gun deaths in the USA are high but they fall no where near the rate in many other far more dangerous countries. It is simply that firearms deaths in the USA get such high media coverage when they occur in mass shootings. Statistically they disappear when compared to deaths in road crashes
I was simply trying to tell everybody that most Americans think about this very differently and for many of them the shadow of Krystallnacht looms dark and strongly.
Also please do not confuse a Militia with the Army reserve; they are very different entities and in the USA they are legal, mostly.
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby wayno » Sun 18 Mar, 2018 9:50 am

30000 gun deaths a year not a high enough amount? I don't think deaths from car accidents are higher.... America is extremely violent. Most of it doesn't make the news because it's poor people shooting other poor people . And two thirds are suicides...
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby Moondog55 » Sun 18 Mar, 2018 11:06 am

There are 340 million people in the USA and No suicide doesn't count as a violent death as we are talking about murder here as regards mass shootings. Discount those suicides and the rate is about 5 per every hundred thousand people. Smoking related disease is much higher than that, even influenza kills more people.
37000 deaths from road trauma as passengers in 2016, not counting pedestrians hit by vehicles, that is 3 times the murder rate; although both would be better if the rate was much lower.
I would not say that Americans are violent people at all, go and live in Nuigini for a year or two if you want to meet really violent people but all people are capable of violence, no matter where they live, we just happen to live in a society that dosn't condone it but why should we place our own rules and expectations on other societies?
Talking to my mates and family in the USA it seems the current debate is not at all about the second amendment but the free availability of military weapons to civilians, most of them wish to see assault rifles taken out of the market place and better controls on firearms licensing to exclude people with mental illness and a history of violence from legal ownership. Illegal ownership is a different story, we can't stop illegal ownership here with our highly restrictive laws, it would be much more difficult there
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby GPSGuided » Sun 18 Mar, 2018 1:46 pm

Moondog55 wrote:I was simply trying to tell everybody that most Americans think about this very differently and for many of them the shadow of Krystallnacht looms dark and strongly...

Yes, they've been brainwashed since an early age on the issue. As their line of thinking is against logic, they are fixated and nearly beyond repair. Worse, comparing supposedly the leader of the 'free world''s gun related death rate to the lowest denominator of the world? That's a joke. Most countries would want to compare and match with the best.
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby Moondog55 » Sun 18 Mar, 2018 1:58 pm

Why?
I would say that we Aussies have been brainwashed too.
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby Davidf61 » Sun 18 Mar, 2018 2:17 pm

Well I guessed it was going to turn into a 2nd amendment discussion [ although at least its remained civilised! ]. I was thinking more along the lines of whether consumer purchasing power would have any lasting or meaningful effect on the current state of gun politics in the States. Nothing gets attention more than I suppose than the hip pocket nerve being tweaked.

Lots of firms are rethinking or withdrawing NRA connections, kids are conducting school walkouts, maybe there could finally be a bit of momentum around change?

Guess we'll have to see how in pans [ or fizzles ] out over the coming few months.
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby Moondog55 » Sun 18 Mar, 2018 2:35 pm

In this instance I think costumer action may well make a difference.
Hopefully it will take a course that can satisfy a majority of people over there. Just making people have to wait a month would make a difference but if people really want an assault rifle they will get one [or many ] there are simply so many available.
I have mates who are NRA members who think the NRA is way out of line with this one so there is a reaction over there. There are going to be a lot of surplus weapons in the US when the military retire all the M2s and M-4s soon Hopefully they get crushed.
Second amendment debates get contused by the Right of Self Defence in the USA, something that was taken from Australians many decades ago and which we have learnt to live with
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby Gadgetgeek » Sun 18 Mar, 2018 5:26 pm

Moondog, under the current regulations of the NFA in the US, some of the M2 heavies might fall before the cut-off date, but I doubt that there are any still in service that do, and even if there were, it wouldn't be worth the work to make them "transferable" and surplus them. As for the M-4s they likewise won't be surplussed. If anything the uppers might, but the lowers won't, as the fire-control group is where the fun bits are. But since they were all produced after the machine-gun ban cut-off, the cannot be surplussed. Or at least that is my understanding. As it stands though, the ar-15 platform (current M-4) will stay in service for at least another 20 years, as they are doing update packages for it, and the M-27 won't be taking it over. There will of course be talk of it, but until there is a major change in ammo, and it becomes economically viable to change, they won't be shifting it.

Wayno, the stats are not very good, many places don't collate and collect them in the US, so all we have are guesses. But even the worst case estimates still put the actual rate of violence lower than what it was in the 70s, Steven Pinker does a good bit of research on it in "better angels of our nature" despite the difficulty of pulling the numbers together for the US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_veh ... S._by_year High was 54,589 in 1972. If the FBI says that there were just over 8000 gun murders in the US in 2014 then the actual number may well be a bit higher, but I can't see it being by that much.
The odds are always that you will be killed by a family member, or yourself.

At some point the retailers have to assume that the legal protection they fall under will get taken away, at some point someone will buy a gun legally and the warning signs will have been evident to the employee that they should not be selling that gun. At that point, when they are legally liable for the actions caused, it will change in a heartbeat. As I said before, I think there will be a free market solution before there is a legal one, and if these boycotts and similar actions are the cause then we need to have them. The 2A stuff has become a religion entrenched with dogma, it has its martyrs and saints, and until someone nails some notes to the door nothing will change. But I think we have some people getting the hammers out, and things may very well change quickly. Will that cause civil unrest? That is something I cannot predict. It very well may, but to be honest most of the 2A guys are middle aged, and freedom fighters are more often young and dumb. Of course that also assumes that any regulation has any logic to it.... And we all know how likely that is.
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby north-north-west » Sun 18 Mar, 2018 5:37 pm

Moondog55 wrote:Second amendment debates get contused by the Right of Self Defence in the USA, something that was taken from Australians many decades ago and which we have learnt to live with


So people in Australia do not have the right to defend themselves from an attack at all? They are legally required to just stand there and take it?
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby Moondog55 » Sun 18 Mar, 2018 8:25 pm

No, you are obliged to retreat and escape NNW, although English common law also says you only have to retreat to the safety of your own home.
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby GPSGuided » Sun 18 Mar, 2018 10:02 pm

Moondog55 wrote:Why?
I would say that we Aussies have been brainwashed too.

We have been educated to value and work to minimise innocent deaths in our society. If you call that brainwashed, then so be it.
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby north-north-west » Mon 19 Mar, 2018 6:41 am

Moondog55 wrote:No, you are obliged to retreat and escape NNW, although English common law also says you only have to retreat to the safety of your own home.


I was under the impression that the issue - even when the act of self-defence results in the death of the attacker - was one of excessive force. In physical attacks, it is often the case that the only way to achieve escape is through a degree of temporary incapacitation of the attacker.
And as far as I can find by doing a bit of digging, self-defence is an accepted legal defence, even in cases of death. It is mitigation at least.
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Re: Gun control vs people power?

Postby Lophophaps » Mon 19 Mar, 2018 7:52 am

At law, the response must be commensurate with the threat. For example, if a maniac is shaking his fist at you and is threatening, the response might be batons or capsicum spray. Using deadly force such as a side arm would not be justified unless the alleged offender had a similar weapon and/or there was an immediate serious threat.

The US has a culture of guns, developed for over 200 years and in their laws. The NRA and other lobby groups have massive clout. Any changes must be gradual. Australia did this with seat belts and sunscreen, the former being law. If laws change then the new laws are often accepted and adopted in time. If the laws are unfair or do not make sense then they will be rejected, such as Joe Hockey's infamous 2014 budget and more recently the ALP's imputation credit disaster.
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