Pulp mill

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Re: Pulp mill

Postby tasadam » Mon 07 Jul, 2008 4:40 pm

Yes, I'm sure there's much to learn there, when time permits.
Regardless of the outcome, there will always be people that drink coffee, and there will always be people that use paper.

I'm one of both.
Doesn't stop me from having views on things like the pulp mill though.
Looking at it from a realist point of view for a moment.
It's more than that now, but assuming 2 Billion dollars. How many trees is that?

What do they pay, $20 per tonne for pulp timber?
Then they have to pay for cartage, labour, running costs etc.
And all to make pulp that they are going to ship overseas to make paper out of?

OK. 100 million tonnes of trees at $20 a tonne to break $2 billion.
And then there's interest.

I'd love to see the real maths on this one - I bet it looks a whole lot worse.
How many tonnes per hectare in timber is there in the average forest?
And how long did they take to grow?
All simple questions that, when answered, provide the raw data for a bit of maths to calculate how much of this state is going to need to be stripped to feed the mill.
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Re: Pulp mill

Postby walkinTas » Mon 07 Jul, 2008 6:27 pm

tasadam wrote:Yes, I'm sure there's much to learn there, when time permits.
Regardless of the outcome, there will always be people that drink coffee, and there will always be people that use paper.
I'm one of both.
Doesn't stop me from having views on things like the pulp mill though.


I too am one of both, and it doesn't stop me either. The trick is to consider where the paper and coffee come from and to be more thoughtful about what we support and what we don't support (which is not a shot at you personally, I include myself in the "we', it is a general comment).

I use paper, so whether I publicly make statements about my preferences or not, by using paper I am supporting the pulp and paper industry. If I unknowingly use paper (or other products) sourced through the destruction of rain forests then that is probably ignorance. If I knowingly and/or uncaringly use paper or other products sourced from rain forests, while protesting about the destruction of those forest, then that is hypocrisy. It is akin to complaining about the destruction of elephants while collecting ivory.

For me, the issue in Tasmania is not to stop the pulp and paper industry. Rather the issue is to stop the unnecessary destruction of old growth forests. The forestry industry will not flounder if we immediately stop harvesting old growth forests. It is an opportunistic resource, not a necessary or essential resource. Harvesting native forest was once the only choice, but 40 years of plantation establishment and management mean that the harvesting of old growth forests in the Styx, Weld, Tarkine and other forests is now only opportunistic.

People can make a difference. At the next election we should demand that each party and each candidate declare their position on old growth forests. We should only vote for those who will immediately stop the harvest. It is that simple - either enough people in this state care or there is not enough who care - if enough care them we should be able to stop old growth harvesting with one vote. The problem with the forest debate is that everyone is confused by a hundred different claims about a thousand spurious facts, and meanwhile little changes.

Focus on one issue! Stop old growth harvest now.

Then with the remaining forest practices we can look to getting a sustainable, viable, clean timber and pulp industry for Tasmania. It won't every be pristine or perfect, but I'd rather have a sustainable forest industry in Tasmania than see the waste and destruction in places like Indonesia. If the current forest practices, including the proposed pulp mill, can't be sustained without harvesting old growth forests, then they are simply the wrong forest practices. Change them to sustainable practices. Support and build a pulp mill that only uses plantation timber. Support and build a sustainable forest industry that will grow our future rather than destroying it.

People will always use paper, and people will always drink coffee. The trick is to do it in a sustainable manor. So I support sustainable forest practice. There is nothing, absolutely nothing about the harvesting old growth forests that is the least bit sustainable.
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Re: Pulp mill

Postby flyfisher » Mon 07 Jul, 2008 8:21 pm

Thanks W T for that link. There is a heap of eye opening info in there. Thanks again
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Re: Pulp mill

Postby Joe » Mon 07 Jul, 2008 10:04 pm

walkinTas wrote:
tasadam wrote:People will always use paper, and people will always drink coffee. .


This one is worth quoting...just for prosperity...in 20 years time if the forum is still about it will be interesting to see if people do indeed always use paper. Coffee is a given...but I honestly don't believe paper is. Im sure many years ago someone said "Oh asbestos...people will always use asbestos" ;)


I sit here surrounded by paper, this room is wall to wall bookshelves, my desk is covered in bills, I have a paper bag full of resistors and capacitors here for an amp Im working on...but looking at it all it is quite conceivable that viable alternatives will pop up down the track.
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Re: Pulp mill

Postby tasadam » Mon 07 Jul, 2008 10:21 pm

Toilet paper, books, CD inserts (oops, now I'm getting carried away - in 20 years it is likely to be "What's a CD"), hey, I know - wine bottle labels...
Packaging boxes and other such cardboard, receipts & invoices, post items, christmas cards - I think they'll hang around for more than 20 years to come no matter how fast technology advances. It will be a changing world if I am wrong on that one.
One thing for certain - change is constant.
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Re: Pulp mill

Postby walkinTas » Mon 07 Jul, 2008 11:13 pm

taswaterfalls.com wrote: I sit here surrounded by paper, this room is wall to wall bookshelves, my desk is covered in bills, I have a paper bag full of resistors and capacitors here for an amp Im working on...but looking at it all it is quite conceivable that viable alternatives will pop up down the track.


I think I'd be willing to bet my entire library that someone somewhere will still be using paper twenty years from now! An alternative to coffee is far more likely! :)

...but there are alternatives to toilet paper.
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Re: Pulp mill

Postby Joe » Tue 08 Jul, 2008 12:09 am

Heh I suppose it was a pretty broad statement...what I was getting at was that paper will not be as widely used. My example of asbestos is (unknowingly at the time) not a bad one...20 years ago we did everything but sprinkle it on our cornflakes...nowadays its still got its uses...but....
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Re: Pulp mill

Postby corvus » Tue 08 Jul, 2008 6:57 pm

My bet is that Books and Newspapers will never go out of fashion however I am intrigued by the TP substitute having tried Dock leaves and other broad leaf weeds to an non satisfactory conclusion, is it a sonic device that wheechs the keech and dags out into the ether from the nether Nah!! too polluting so it must be really good and I want to invest so how much are the shares :)
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Re: Pulp mill

Postby slick41st » Sun 13 Jul, 2008 11:18 am

Fortunately this state has also managed to reserve or protect a lot (comparatively a lot - compare to other states) of forests. To put it in perspective, 38.2% of land in Tasmania is private property, 21% is National Parks, Conservation Areas cover an additional 8%, Forest reserves, Nature reserves, and nature recreation areas make up about 3.5% and State Forests cover 19.2% (ABS, May 2003).


Wow, I'd like a dollar for how many times I have heard this argument, and I really never thought I would hear it on this website. Most people on this website bushwalk right? They've walked to most of these pristine, protected untouched places,; and seen the destruction at the fringes to anywhere that is accessible. So they know that a vast majority of the land protected is either because:

1. Of no use to Forestry (most of CPCA WHA)
2. Unable to access it (South West)
3. Conservation was forced on them by a higher authority

It is funny how Tassie has so much protected, yet has such a tarnished reputation for forest management.

Got to say, of all the topics this one is the most interesting and dynamic.

Cheers, Slick
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Re: Pulp mill

Postby tasadam » Fri 31 Oct, 2008 7:14 am

A bit of news on the issue.
The Gunns proposed mill is now on the backburner.
Doing a Google of "gunns backburner" gets heaps of news hits.

A few points from papers suggests Mr Gay and Gunns are quite happy holding the state in a bind of uncertainty, in total arrogant fashion -

From here
"There will be some period of time before financial markets stabilise. In this environment, the company will be maintaining the project in a position to proceed until funding arrangements are complete."
From here
Mr Gay rejected suggestions the company should set its own deadline by which the project should live or die. "This company will continue the process as long as it takes," Mr Gay said.

From here
Recently the company told the West Tamar Council that it could be December 2009 before the board approved the project.

Two bits of interesting vocab in these media reports are
Premier David Bartlett has vowed to withdraw state support for the project if substantial construction does not begin by November 30.

and
Tasmanians Against a Pulp Mill spokesman Bob McMahon, who attended the meeting, said Mr Gay's statement meant there would be no pulp mill "not now, not ever".


When will the nail finally be in the coffin of this mill?
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Re: Pulp mill

Postby Singe » Fri 31 Oct, 2008 8:42 am

Gunns' have changed their tune somewhat since the abandonment of the RPDC assessment and passing of the Pulp Mill Assessment Bill.

That $1M per day must really be adding up by now...
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Re: Pulp mill

Postby tasadam » Fri 31 Oct, 2008 8:55 am

Singe wrote:Gunns' have changed their tune somewhat since the abandonment of the RPDC assessment and passing of the Pulp Mill Assessment Bill.

They knew all along they'd never get it through, I'm just waiting for WHEN a parliamentary enquiry proves that Paul Lemmon advised Gunns to do what was done.
Who says pulp mills don't stink? It's been a rotten egg to the nose since the plan was made public, and certainly not helped by the actions of our Government.
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Re: Pulp mill

Postby tasadam » Mon 03 Nov, 2008 10:14 am

Well it seems someone has decided to come out from hiding and stick his neck into the debate again.
Have a look at this...
http://www.themercury.com.au/article/20 ... -news.html
"I mean, the pulp mill, a $2 billion-plus project, has had to make its way through the planning approval process.
"It's a very big project by world terms, not just Tasmanian.
"It'll be a sad day for Tasmania if a project like that can't proceed."

But, hang on, if I remember correctly, it didn't make its way through the planning approval process - he bypassed it!

And in response?
http://www.themercury.com.au/article/20 ... -news.html
In the interview, Mr Lennon said Flanagan had opposed projects that had given Tasmania a "good, bright future", including Basslink, industrial-scale wind farms and the Tamar Valley pulp mill.
He said Flanagan's opposition to the pulp mill was driven by a desire to stop the timber industry by any means possible.
Flanagan yesterday rejected Mr Lennon's claims.
"Mr Lennon has always maintained a loose connection with the truth," he said.

Well theres a quote with the word TRUTH in it... 8)
Also alluded to in the "planning approval process" comment above.

Also in the news of late,
http://www.themercury.com.au/article/20 ... -news.html
On Thursday Gunns executive chairman John Gay told the firm's annual meeting he did not expect all Tamar Valley landowners to agree to easement acquisition along the 30km section of the East Tamar.
But he said he was surprised at the number who had expressed support.

What, one agreed? And he was expecting none, I assume? :lol:

Also of note, on TV tonight,
http://www.yourtv.com.au/guide/index.cf ... =&loc=grid
Australian Story

8pm – 8.30pm ABC1
Monday 3 November 2008

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Controversial author Richard Flanagan is making headlines again - this time for his art rather than his contentious stance against Tasmania's forest industry.

Genre: Documentary
Year: 2008
Other: Closed Captions

Duration: 30 mins


I thought it might be interesting because of
http://www.themercury.com.au/article/20 ... -news.html
In a recorded interview for an ABC Australian Story profile on Mr Flanagan, airing tomorrow night, Mr Lennon was scathing of the award-winning author's opposition to "progress" in Tasmania.
"Many of the projects that we progressed in Tasmania, Richard opposed," Mr Lennon told Australian Story.

and
http://www.themercury.com.au/article/20 ... -news.html
It flared again at the weekend, after reports that Mr Lennon had accused Flanagan of being anti-progress in an ABC Australian Story, airing tonight.
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