Sleep Apnea and CPAP machine

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TIP: The online Bushwalk Inventory System can help bushwalkers with a variety of bushwalk planning tasks, including: Manage which items they take bushwalking so that they do not forget anything they might need, plan meals for their walks, and automatically compile food/fuel shopping lists (lists of consumables) required to make and cook the meals for each walk. It is particularly useful for planning for groups who share food or other items, but is also useful for individual walkers.

Re: Sleep Apnea and CPAP machine

Postby GPSGuided » Thu 23 Apr, 2015 12:53 pm

It's not labelling. Fact is, it takes will to make it work, no different to many other activities in life, including the will to live in those who are facing adversities. It makes a massive difference to the outcome.
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Re: Sleep Apnea and CPAP machine

Postby icefest » Thu 23 Apr, 2015 5:22 pm

I don't disagree that will plays a large part. The problem is that most people don't have enough strength and that saying so doesn't help.
Telling someone "you just didn't have the will to quit smoking" does very little to help them quit next time.

It's like trying to eliminate teenage pregnancy by abstinence and strength of will, which has not been successful in large populations.


I guess we won't agree.
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Re: Sleep Apnea and CPAP machine

Postby GPSGuided » Thu 23 Apr, 2015 6:58 pm

Well, this depends on the context of discussion. In this case, a major root cause is the will along with conditioning and motivation. How can one treat a problem if a major root cause can not be spoken about? It's ostrich in the sand. What I do agree with you is that if the will word is cast negatively in the way you just did, then it won't likely to work. However, the will word can also be cast in a positive angle, through encouragements. That can help. This reminds me of the difference b/n academic discussions and practical implementation, and I'm glad you agreed that will does play a large part. So we do agree.
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Re: Sleep Apnea and CPAP machine

Postby icefest » Thu 23 Apr, 2015 7:27 pm

:)
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Re: Sleep Apnea and CPAP machine

Postby drakkar » Fri 24 Apr, 2015 4:22 pm

In general weight loss willpower and discipline Definetly play a large part.

All my meals were weighed and portioned correctly. Before the gain started I was struggling to maintain weight.
I saw a dietitian, and a mate who competively kickboxes and is a diet nerd. Both said I was on the mark.

After a lengthy process, my average HR during sleep was 92bpm.
And 20-30mins REM sleep.

I haven't done enough reading but because Your body is stressed it metabolises most things into fat rather than energy and you start craving sugar to what I'm assuming is to balance your insulin and simply provide the energy needed to get through the day.

I've done enough training and time out at 5am on wet windy mornings and eaten well at party's and drank water while everyone around me drank and are pizza.... On top of a few things that I'm not sharing here.
The mental fuzz that came from apnea was far worse than dealing with a new born and Groundhog Day. On top of the sugar cravings it's a special kind if torture.

Can you explain why I have lost 4.5kg with no change in diet, routine, or excercise other than using a cpap machine for 3 weeks?
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Re: Sleep Apnea and CPAP machine

Postby GPSGuided » Fri 24 Apr, 2015 5:32 pm

You know Drakkar, always happy to hear people achieve their weight control goals by whatever means. Amongst the sea of academic knowledge out there, it's important to stay on the big picture and the dominant factors than to amplify specific lesser processes that one reads in pop media. Why you lost weight for 'no change' in diet? How is one to exactly know without studying you in detail? Depending on your base weight, It could be easily influenced by fluid retention/loss, changes in basal metabolic rate, hormonal changes and many other normalisation effects that come with the use of CPAP. But just bear in mind that CPAP is not a cure but a mechanical prosthetic. It's ideal to use the window of opportunity given to work on the other issue eg. Excess weight, but not accepting it as a life long therapy. At the end of the day, caloric balance dictates weight. No getting around it.
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Re: Sleep Apnea and CPAP machine

Postby drakkar » Sat 25 Apr, 2015 8:00 am

You've totally missed my point.

My diet is solid.
My apnea is not caused by weight gain, just amplified by it.
CPAP, ie a full night sleep. has meant my metabolism is changing to what its meant to be rather than 'Hold onto every thing as fat'

Due to a myriad of reasons it's nearly impossible for someone with severe apnea to lose weight. I don't understand the science behind it enough to argue it. But I'm guessing its due to changes from what you've just listed caused by your body not going into 'recovery' mode while it sleeps.
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Re: Sleep Apnea and CPAP machine

Postby GPSGuided » Sat 25 Apr, 2015 10:13 am

As you've recognised, your weight gain has amplified the problem. Then isn't it more reason to work on the weight? Claiming 'nearly impossible' on weight control is just admitting self-defeat. No one can help once that happen and CPAP will be life long, and any adverse physiological changes will become chronic, possibly permanent.

Fact is, drop the caloric intake appropriately and weight loss will ensue. Just an universal fact.
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Re: Sleep Apnea and CPAP machine

Postby Tyreless » Sat 25 Apr, 2015 11:34 am

I don't think it's that simple. I'm no expert but a bit of a google search brought up a lot of articles. This one* said:

"Individuals with sleep apnea tend to be fatigued which leads to disinterest in exercise. People who do not sleep enough suffer increased hunger levels despite the fact that they are not using more calories during wake time. Lack of sleep can stimulate the production of ghrelin, a hormone which increases appetite. This results in more weight gain. Patients with sleep apnea often experience increased fasting glucose which can also worsen with lack of sleep. This occurs since fat is more resistant to insulin than muscle."

Seems to support what drakkar says s/he is feeling.

* http://www.ahsleepcenters.com/articles/sleepapneaandweightloss
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Sleep Apnea and CPAP machine

Postby GPSGuided » Sat 25 Apr, 2015 12:13 pm

Yes, that's what happens with piecemeal acquisition of knowledge. What you referenced there is only the expenditure side of the caloric equation. In countering, one needs to further restrict the caloric intake to keep the balance negative, thereby achieving the weight reduction goal.

Calorie in < Calorie out => Weight loss

What the CPAP machine gives is a window of symptomatic relief to allow the patient to work on the other factors, the root cause/s if possible. If such opportunity is not utilised, then afraid the condition will become chronic and life long, potentially inducing other disease states and shorten the life span. ResMed loves those who ends up with lifelong CPAP dependency!

As the saying goes for human endeavours, no pain no gain. In this case, no pain no loss. The issue with the diet industry is such that they promote painless magic solutions and has hoodwinked the public at large into unrealistic expectations. Hunger pain is good for you!
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Re: Sleep Apnea and CPAP machine

Postby South_Aussie_Hiker » Sat 25 Apr, 2015 12:19 pm

I agree with GPS.

I'm not arguing against the symptoms of apnoea potentially including increases in appetite/loss of exercise motivation.

But what he is saying is that if the calorie burn exceeds the calorie intake, there will be weight loss. Not to lose weight in that scenario would defy the laws of physics. If you are gaining weight, you are eating more than you are expending.
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Re: Sleep Apnea and CPAP machine

Postby drakkar » Tue 28 Apr, 2015 9:30 am

If only it were hunger pains GPS it would be easy.

Because your body isn't getting the rest it needs it craves carbs and sugars, and probably needs it to survive. Think of the cravings you get after a hard walk with less food than you should have eaten. That 'bonk' fog that you get, and times it by about ten... I've done enough audax rides to know what that feels like.

If you've got enough willpower to get through that your superhuman!
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Re: Sleep Apnea and CPAP machine

Postby GPSGuided » Tue 28 Apr, 2015 1:27 pm

drakkar wrote:Because your body isn't getting the rest it needs it craves carbs and sugars, and probably needs it to survive.

This is the key issue in your understanding. No, the body does not need that level of carb it's 'calling for'. Cut it right down and the body will start to convert those stored fat for energy. It's not a 'probably'.
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Re: Sleep Apnea and CPAP machine

Postby drakkar » Tue 28 Apr, 2015 8:00 pm

You've missed the point again. And are drastically oversimplifying things.

Have you suffered from severe sleep apnea?
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Re: Sleep Apnea and CPAP machine

Postby GPSGuided » Tue 28 Apr, 2015 9:16 pm

I actually have some knowledge on OSA and the field in discussion. KISS is actually a wise strategy in life and clinical medicine, and let's leave it at that in terms of what you are willing to accept and deny.
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Re: Sleep Apnea and CPAP machine

Postby icefest » Tue 28 Apr, 2015 11:24 pm

drakkar wrote:Have you suffered from severe sleep apnea?

While it may help knowing what it feels like, having not had osa does not disadvantage you from knowing what causes it.

I'm sure you would trust a cancer doctor who doesn't have cancer to treat you.

If you are not eating more calories than you are using, where is the excess coming from?
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Re: Sleep Apnea and CPAP machine

Postby drakkar » Wed 29 Apr, 2015 7:40 am

It's pretty obvious from the lack of empathy and understanding that doesn't go beyond a text book... That you don't understand the condition on a whole.

A bit like most cancer doctors I've had the pleasure of dealing with. A bit like the GP who suffers from ceoliacs actually understand the condition.

Bowing out of this conversation as its going in circles, GPS. Unless you have good suggestions for portable cpap with your vast knowledge on the subject please do the same.
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Re: Sleep Apnea and CPAP machine

Postby GPSGuided » Wed 29 Apr, 2015 9:01 am

drakkar wrote:It's pretty obvious from the lack of empathy and understanding that doesn't go beyond a text book... That you don't understand the condition on a whole.
...
Bowing out of this conversation as its going in circles, GPS. Unless you have good suggestions for portable cpap with your vast knowledge on the subject please do the same.

The truth can be hard to take and certain facts in human physiology just can't be denied. Energy balance equation is one such and very sorry to see your resistance and denial. Taking another angle, it's not exactly unusual amongst the patient population. Many are more keen on the pill solution with no pain and effort involved. Up goes the medical cost for the society.

There are only so many CPAP machines out there to choose from but it'll forever be a machine that significantly detracts from the pursuit of bushwalking. Drastically drop the body weight and the CPAP machine may just become history.

Take your pick on compact units...
http://www.cpap.com/cpap-machines/trave ... achine.php
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Re: Sleep Apnea and CPAP machine

Postby Zone-5 » Thu 30 Apr, 2015 3:28 am

I used to work for ResMed.

They take a bit of getting used to but after your first & best night sleep in decades you never go back!

They are as life changing as Nexium is...

;)
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Re: Sleep Apnea and CPAP machine

Postby darrenb » Fri 01 May, 2015 7:01 pm

Errr... I'm not overweight, but I need CPAP. It is a hereditary physiological condition.
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Re: Sleep Apnea and CPAP machine

Postby drakkar » Fri 29 May, 2015 7:31 pm

darrenb wrote:Errr... I'm not overweight, but I need CPAP. It is a hereditary physiological condition.


GPSguided claims to be an expert but seems to only know enough to be offensive.


Have done some reading, seems the 'transcend' is the best on the market for travel, and if you need more than a 2 nights you need a way to charge the battery.
Available locally at a competitive price, and from the states. Hard to find a bad review.


The HDM Z1 is smaller and lighter, power compatible in aus. But the supplier wont post direct, you'll need to use a freight forwarder. On paper a better machine but more expensive, and many unhappy users.

Will update if I find anymore units.
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Re: Sleep Apnea and CPAP machine

Postby GPSGuided » Fri 29 May, 2015 7:54 pm

darrenb wrote:Errr... I'm not overweight, but I need CPAP. It is a hereditary physiological condition.

That's a minority within the disease state and is still adversely affected by the known physical factors. And it does not make an overriding case against the dominant adverse factors. People can deny and be relegated to the dependent than the self-help group. Yes, you can call truth to be 'offensive'.
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Re: Sleep Apnea and CPAP machine

Postby darrenb » Sun 31 May, 2015 10:10 am

GPSGuided wrote:
darrenb wrote:Errr... I'm not overweight, but I need CPAP. It is a hereditary physiological condition.

That's a minority within the disease state and is still adversely affected by the known physical factors. And it does not make an overriding case against the dominant adverse factors. People can deny and be relegated to the dependent than the self-help group. Yes, you can call truth to be 'offensive'.

Not offended. Just saying, you don't have to have a weight problem to have an OSA problem. I do understand however that the two often go together, and dealing with either or both can be a challenge.
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Re: Sleep Apnea and CPAP machine

Postby GPSGuided » Sun 31 May, 2015 10:55 am

darrenb wrote:Not offended. Just saying, you don't have to have a weight problem to have an OSA problem. I do understand however that the two often go together, and dealing with either or both can be a challenge.

That is correct, and my earlier statements have never exclusively linked weight issues with OSA. It indeed is a multifactorial condition that will be significantly exacerbated by any weight issue, irrespective of the original aetiology. As such, irrespective of the original aetiology, weight correction is import and is something that the individual can actively alter, hence the emphasis. Can't change one's genes (just yet) but weight control is doable. That's all and I think we are on the same page.
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Re: Sleep Apnea and CPAP machine

Postby v17l » Sun 04 Oct, 2015 5:09 am

I have purchased a transcend for travelling, and cycle touring. I use the same nasal mask as my main resmed S9 unit. I have the P8 battery, which is meant to be able to do two nights. The length of time available is dependant on your AHI requirements. Higher AHI less time from the battery. Second variable is length of sleep time required each night. I average and function with 6 hours but when physically tired need around 8 to 8.5 hours.
I have tried a second night once, and was ok for me.
The transcend does not have a humidifier as standard, as these chew the battery life something fierce.
I have used the transcend for a six week bike tour, and have had no dry throat problems at all. I do drink a lot of water though.
I have also camped for two nights without my cpap machine prior to buying the transcend. I found contary to my belief that i would suffer as i did before using a cpap machine, i was able to walk / hike for the two days with out problems. My theory is now that I will use the transcend alternate nights, as long as I can find a location not to disturb people on the non cpap night.
The transcend unit uses a small foam filter, and these can be washed I believe. Haven't done this yet, but will do when I get home from the six week cycle tour.
A bit bulkier in my pannier, as I have used the original bag with charger and strap included. It could pack down smaller if alternative bags are used.
I am very happy with the transcend, for both weight and size. I plan to walk the carmino next year, time permitting, using the transcend.
One area that I would like to look at is the battery itself. You buy it from transcend themselves. There are a lot of new lightweight lithium ion batteries out now, and I reckon they might be better in terms of weight/size. Correct voltage and connector would need to be sorted, as would the lithium ion battery charging unit.
Hope this helps.
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Re: Sleep Apnea and CPAP machine

Postby GPSGuided » Sun 04 Oct, 2015 2:18 pm

Being a regulated medical device, these companies need more time to clear each design change through the regulatory departments. As such, lead time for the latest technology will invariably be longer than consumer devices, often for a good reason. So, I'd suggest you should be extra thoughtful in attempting any battery mods.
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Re: Sleep Apnea and CPAP machine

Postby darrenb » Sun 04 Oct, 2015 6:09 pm

Thanks Stevet, I really appreciate your detailed response. You have answered a lot of the questions that I had about the Trancend cpap and its suitability to multi-night bushwalking and cycling trips. I too have wondered about lithium ion batteries, but haven't come up with anything suitable - I'd be interested if you do. I think I'm pretty close to purchasing a Trancend and a P8 battery for trips. Thanks again!
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Re: Sleep Apnea and CPAP machine

Postby v17l » Mon 05 Oct, 2015 2:19 pm

hi Darren
when I was looking at a travel cpap, I read all the reviews and things on line that I could. The sleep apnea forum included. It was hard to get an impression of the unit operationally. People gushing about their unit didn't help me understand it. So if there are any questions about it, just ask.
i will weight the cpap and battery when I get home, and post the weights.
The transcend is not a sophisticated unit by anymeans when compared to the resmed. There is no display for you to check your overnight AHI, but apparently it does record your data. My cpap therapist said she can connect her computer and get the info though. This needs to be confirmed.
My resmed is much nicer, put the mask on and breath, and the little fairy in the resmed kicks the unit into action. Not so with the transcend. Operational wise, connect the battery to the transcend, then push the tactile start/stop button and the transend will start. The reverse to stop the transcend. I do get a little mixed up at night, in the dark to find the tactile start/ stop button, as there is another button similar to the start button close by.
At the end of the second night using the battery, it was my impression that the unit just slowed down in terms of breathing pressure. Still worked fine for me, as my AHI is 9.5. YMMV. My cpap therapist has set the machine up as an auto unit, not as a constant pressure.
When I first connected the transcend up to use, there was a constant flow of air, with no regulation. Bit of a worry as as per normal, i didnt bother reading the manual before I went away with the unit. Turns out they supply a small, 50mm junction unit, that fits inline with your hose and the cpap, which required connecting up. Once I did that the unit worked as it should.
The cpap unit is slippery when used on a flat surface, because it is so light, and that they have not put rubber feet on the unit. I use it in the travel case, with my battery as the anchor when I have a slipppery surface. Not a problem, but something to be aware of.
You will hear mention of the cpap being noisy on the net, and whilst it is not as quiet as the resmed, it is quite ok to use. Mrs V17l doesn't notice it at all. I am trying to think of something to compare it to, but can't. Suffice to say, it is not an issue what so every for me. The alternative is way more noisy, having no machine. I do chuckle to myself when my kids are now happy to share accommodation with me when we travel, now I use a cpap machine. Cheeky sods were less than complimrntary of my volume prior to my cpap foray.
Part of the reasoning for buy the transcend, apart from travel, is a temporary back up for my resmed, should the resmed have problems. Touch wood. Could be I was looking for excuses though, as my resmed is a very reliable machine. Prior to the transcend, I had traveled with my resmed interstate, and to singapore and malaysia, without a hitch, the resmed survived. I was just careful then.
One area I mentioned is that the transcend does not have a humidifier. I was worried about waking up to a dry throat in the morning. When I wake up overnight, if I do, I have a drink of water. There are sprays you can get, but I have no knowledge of them. I have faired ok in this regard, but perhaps try it at home on your normal machine, without filling up the humidifiers water tank and see how you go. I am lazy, and dont use the heater humidifier function on my resmed even though I live in a dry desert environment.
hope this helps
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Re: Sleep Apnea and CPAP machine

Postby darrenb » Mon 05 Oct, 2015 3:26 pm

Hi Steve,
Once again your info is invaluable to me. It seems that we share some interests as well as problems. Yes, wife and son both appreciate my use of cpap!
I currently travel with my Resmed S9 unit (when near a power supply), but to save space and weight I don't take the humidifier. Particularly when traveling to the tropics I find that I don't need it. I also have a 12 volt adaptor so that I can run it from the car battery when camping/caravaning, though I'm yet to try it out. So far I've just gone without and woken a little tired and with a slightly sore throat... (and to much ridicule).
Specs for the Trancend are available here if you scroll down a bit: http://au.mytranscend.com/products/ther ... cend-auto/
I found specs on the battery somewhere too - from memory I think the cpap and battery came in just under a kilo, which is remarkable (though still unwelcome in a rucksack for a multi-day walk). The cpap alone is only 426g.
I'm guessing that the battery will last reasonably well for me as my pressure is only 6cm, and when hiking I'm pretty glad to get up after 6 hours or so - though a new softer mattress helps.
One concern I have is more about modesty than tech. Have you ever slept in public huts (such as the ones on NZ great walks) with it and needed to explain it to fellow travelers?
Your description of the practicalities of use are most helpful. Thanks.
cheers,
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Re: Sleep Apnea and CPAP machine

Postby v17l » Tue 06 Oct, 2015 4:20 pm

hi Darren,
Hehehe, our plight is the cause of merriment with our families.
I am interested on your thoughts re the 12v inverter that you have for the resmed, when you have used it in anger.
Re the use of cpap in a hut, unfortunately no I haven't yet. Given that the big walking tracks ie milford are regulated and you see the same walkers each night in the huts, I did think terms of "stops my snoring" on the first night would put a lot of pressure on the other snorers though. it eould mean we have to take eare plugs for a change.
A line from the aussie movie "the dish", "the fear of regret is much worse than the fear of failure". I have walked the milford and overland tracks in my younger days, and would like to do so again, so will take the transcend when I do. At the moment though we are looking at the Carmen Santiago pilgrim walk. Need to get a bit fitter though.
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