Goretex Outer Shells

[the_camera_poser]

I'm curious as to everyone's opinion on Goretex, especially for outerwear. Both the wife and I feel it's very overrated- her goretex jacket leaks like a sieve, especially in snow, and my boots don't wick at all, despite the goretex claims.

What are your experiences with goretex?

[Son of a Beach]

If it leaks send it back for a replacement - it's at least worth a try, as they are generally good on their warranty so long as the garment has been looked after correctly (washed frequently according to the instructions on the care label).

I don't think Goretex is supposed to wick. It is supposed to 'breathe' (ie, allow gas and vapour to pass through), which is a different thing. Having said that, the rate at which anything can pass through is very slow. Hence a lot of manufacturers adding arm-pit zips to vent/breather a bit more effectively.

No waterproof fabric breathes as well as non waterproof fabrics. I suspect that no waterproof fabric is going to breath as well as linen, for example, so you have to be reasonable with your expectations of what 'breathable' means when it comes to waterproof fabrics. My experience of waterproof fabrics is limited, and it's quite likely that some are better than others in this respect.

[dee_legg]

Yeah, i'm not overly impressed with the gortex liner in my boots, but then that had no influence on the purchase so i'm not too fussed. I find that they are great until your foot gets submerged then the water in your boot can't escape because of the liner.

[the_camera_poser]

I should have entitled this post, Goretex- worth the money? And added a poll!

[Ent]

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[blacksheep]

Goretex is a strong brand, but it tends to overstate the performace of the fabric. They have taught us a lot about how to construct a garment (ie: zip carriers and collar finished to avoid wicking etc) and their fabric were an improvement on the previous generation fabric too. However, in answer to the question "worth the money?" the answer is no, because for the same money (or less) you can buy garments that are as waterproof, have equal beack up service and allow 250-300% more water vapour to escape. So no, they are not worth the premium price they ask- i was in the netherlands last week meeting the macpac ditributor there, and we visited quite a few stores there- now most independent retailers stock 50% Goretex and 50% event in their rainwear areas- growing each year with almost no marketing, just user feedback. (but, i guess you expected this position from me ... )

[Ent]

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[blacksheep]

Goretex is a strong brand, but it tends to overstate the performace of the fabric.

Would not one of the reason for Gore-tex solid performance be with rain wear they insist on testing manufacturer designs to give the guarantee it or is this just spin?

no. it's not spin. each new design is tested to be fit for purpose. Generally highlights failure to follow what have become establisg construction techniques. To my knowledge only Gore and eVent ensure their garments meet perfromance standards- basically ensuring poor design doesn't make their fabric/brand look bad.

[nothingwmn]

I have an Arc'Teryx Beta AR, 3 layer gore tex shell & I would have to say it is one of the best purchases I have ever made. It is positively the most windproof, waterproof & breathable jacket I've ever used. It is so light (a mere 16 oz or .45 kilos) you don't feel restricted when walking at all. The price tag is steep -- especially here in Australia -- but well worth it in my opinion. Although I was extremely disappointed to learn Arc'Teryx is now making its clothing in China rather than Canada

[jerreldulay]

If this was a poll, I'd vote no on Goretex - Is it worth it?

I feel a sick sensation when I see Goretex products in stores for 6x the price that they should be. There are other brands of products with just as much, if not more functionality, often much more features and usability with fully acceptable quality for much cheaper. If you've got the extra cash to splash and want giant brand names, then there's nothing wrong with Goretex. I, however, am an average income earning consumer, so I will be sticking to the less expensive brands.

Anyway, if you know what you're looking for in equipment and examine your products carefully, you can't go too wrong.

[blacksheep]

has anyone else here used both Goretex rain wear and eVent rainwear? if not, please refrain from saying rainwear doesn't breathe...rather say rainwear with a PU coating breathes poorly... see http://www.eventfabrics.com for more info (not my site, assume I can link in response?)
Seriously better (just did a big session on the bike today in the cold with an eVent shell- so much better than any Gore or Malden product I have used-and I used them all)

[blacksheep]

http://www.fishnhunt.co.nz/forum/YaBB.c ... 1246921970
strange test, but you get the idea.

[Nuts]

..

[blacksheep]

Blacksheep,

If folks find (especially in Tassie, and especially bushwalking) that the 'breathability' of Goretex is adequate. Then would not a jacket that 'breaths' better therefore be 'colder'? and therefore less adequate in this case (ie Tassie Bushwalking)....

Ok..adequate is adequate I guess. I find in PU fabrics like Goretex that my sweat condenses too easily for my liking-even tramping/bushwalking. the cycle of opening the jacket up to dump out humidity (sauna effect) /closing again as sweat-wet mid layers cuase chill is simply not needed in my experience. Of course activities where you sweat more highlight differences more so.... As for your second point-rainwear doesn't provide insulation, so really no difference there. The perception of Goretex being warmer is because moist air isn't exiting, but the trade off from this moisture condensing/wetting out is less deireable in an outdoor application than one that means you are comfortable when you stop & don't chill down...I can't see the argument for wanting less breathable.

[Son of a Beach]

please refrain from saying rainwear doesn't breathe

I'm not sure if you were referring to my earlier post or not, but in any case, I've revised it a bit now.

[Ent]

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[Nuts]

..

[blacksheep]

Nuts, I do think you should take a look at eVent next time you need rainwear. Make sure you select a fabric that is robust enough for pack carrying and bush bashing (many brands have pursued eVent as the ideal fabric for light&fast garments, at the expense of durability). Rab is worth a look, but their jackets are shorter than the Australasian style- same for Vaude (great jackets though).

[Ent]

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[Buddy]

Irrespective of choice of breathable fabric, don't forget that scoparia is your enemy. Oh- and I like that garment design has to be approved by Gore before getting the OK to utilise their fabrics.

[blacksheep]

.... Oh- and I like that garment design has to be approved by Gore before getting the OK to utilise their fabrics.

that is useful the first time a design learns about correct garment construction for sure.. but nuance on garments construction (zip carriers, 3 pc collar taping, hood facing constructions etc) are now in common use. Gore and their rain roon tests played a key role in advancing garment construction 10 years ago, but all (experienced)good designers/ pattern makers understand these techniques of construction now- the testing process is a little redundant if a jacket follows a these fundamental rules. The QA process they implemented with factories also raised the quality bar for the industry- to the benefit of all consumers- credit where it's due.... Now, if only they could have made ePTFE oleophobic in stead of clogging it up with PU ...

[maja]

i think gore-tex is a very 'breathable' waterproof fabric - what ordinary rainjackets don't have. however, being breathable and letting moisture i.e. sweat out - it may also eventually let some water in.....

but yeah despite what they say, no fabric is completely waterproof.....

[blacksheep]

IMHO Vaude is very much Target quality but Myers pricing with the arrogance of any business that considers customers short term profit units rather than partners.

Cheers Brett

I looked over the Vaude eVent jackets in Holland a few weeks ago- I was impressed with the workmanship and materials- you'll have to share with me what I missed..to my eyes they, like most German brands, appeared very nicely finished and considered in design.

[Ent]

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[blacksheep]

you do not make mention the garments which I would assume your comments should be referring too when writing them off....?
your luck with 40c 3rd party supplied buckles/components is a recurring theme maybe? and the resulting broad brush conclusions are based on this? or vaude jackets are no good because you once had a pack with a funny buckle that a local distributor poorly dealt with? I'd support Vaude at least so far as to say tghis is not their brand, it is your experience witha local distributor and a buckle...
hmmm...

[Ent]

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[photohiker]

Ghee I wonder why nearly all USA car makers have hit the wall, surely one issue could not be a quality issue?

Very OT, but the reason GM/Ford/Chrysler hit the wall was not because of their quality, it was through poor business management and an lack of ability to move with the times. The credit crunch found them asleep at the wheel. They are still making hulking trucks (and also hulking trucks disguised as cars or sold as car substitutes), whilst Toyota, Honda and Nissan are stealing their lunch with smaller, efficient cars often made in their respective US factories. Just look at the ridiculous pre-Obama fuel economy situation with California for confirmation that the industry was out of control.

[Ent]

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[photohiker]

I have a little test that might work for others. If it is cold put on a rain jacket and if after a minute or two you have not noticed any warming effect then a fair chance it might breath quite well. The only one that has done that has been a Gore-tex jacket in my collection.

I've MD Gore and a Mont Hydronaute Pro shells that do that.

[blacksheep]

I'll stop taking your bait Brett- please go ahead and write to ACCC, I'm totally fine with that.
Maybe US companies went out of business because their businesses stayed built around making a product that was not supported by the customer base in sufficient numbers to keep them viable. Maybe they kept making big long cars that were boxy , when the customer base was saying they wanted shorter cars with more style and more versatility. I'm sure they heard some quite vocal consumers claiming that they should continue to depend wholey and solely upon a customer demand for long boxy cars (even through their sales reports showed it was no longer there), and despite the fact they knew that type of customer never traded in or updated their car (low chance of repeat sales) and that they were losing customers to other companies who responded to the demand for shorter cars (losing market share). They probably even heard customers that they needed to ignore the new diesel engines that were more effecient and cleaner- some customers probably hadn't used them since they sounded like tractors 15years ago, and therefore assumed that they had not advanced in that time. Who knows...