Help with layering for cold

Bushwalking gear and paraphernalia. Electronic gadget topics (inc. GPS, PLB, chargers) belong in the 'Techno Babble' sub-forum.
Forum rules
TIP: The online Bushwalk Inventory System can help bushwalkers with a variety of bushwalk planning tasks, including: Manage which items they take bushwalking so that they do not forget anything they might need, plan meals for their walks, and automatically compile food/fuel shopping lists (lists of consumables) required to make and cook the meals for each walk. It is particularly useful for planning for groups who share food or other items, but is also useful for individual walkers.

Help with layering for cold

Postby DanShell » Mon 23 May, 2016 12:46 pm

Ive never been one to feel the cold but I have noticed lately that I am really starting to feel it more so I need some help getting my layering right.

I thought I was doing everything right until the last few trips I have been freezing while others with me have been fine wearing a similar system.

For instance on the weekend at night I was wearing a 200 Icebreaker base layer t-shirt, I put a full sleeved polypro thermal over it as I knew it would be cold, I then had a synthetic shirt (not a part of my layering but I just had it on), a heavy fleece and a very light weight and thin wind jacket. I was freezing still so I then put a down vest on that is full of 850 loft and lots of it. I was still freezing.

The ambient temp was only about 5 deg but I admit the wind chill was a lot colder.

I was forced into my tent where I got into my quilt with all my clothes on and it took quite a long time before I started to warm up and even then I felt my back was still chilled. This happened over two nights.

I was wondering if I was coming down with something but I felt fine during the day. I was then thinking perhaps my light weight wind jacket wasn't blocking the wind enough and my core temp dropped so much thats why I felt like my back was chilled for so long even after I got into my tent and quilt??

Any suggestions as to what i can do to layer better? Has anyone else had similar experiences?

EDIT: Forgot to add I was wearing heavy wool thermals on my legs, good wool socks, beanie and gloves. It was only my torso or back to be precise that was feeling the cold.
User avatar
DanShell
Athrotaxis selaginoides
Athrotaxis selaginoides
 
Posts: 1261
Joined: Mon 18 Mar, 2013 11:23 am
Location: Central
Region: Tasmania
Gender: Male

Re: Help with layering for cold

Postby Giddy_up » Mon 23 May, 2016 12:56 pm

Dan I wonder if you had some dampness from the walk into your camp site in your layering. This might explain the localized chill especially around the back. I have had the same and I now always change out of my base layer that I walked in through the day with a fresh dry one which I sleep in. Then change back again in the morning again.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
causa latet, vis est notissima
User avatar
Giddy_up
Athrotaxis selaginoides
Athrotaxis selaginoides
 
Posts: 1093
Joined: Tue 19 Feb, 2013 5:34 pm
Region: Queensland
Gender: Male

Re: Help with layering for cold

Postby teak » Mon 23 May, 2016 1:29 pm

I agree with Giddy_up that it is likely caused by dampness in your merino base layer. I would change into a dry set of polypro thermals as soon as you have set up the tent, and keep the merino for walking in.
teak
Phyllocladus aspleniifolius
Phyllocladus aspleniifolius
 
Posts: 718
Joined: Mon 02 Jan, 2012 10:33 am
Region: Tasmania
Gender: Male

Re: Help with layering for cold

Postby DanShell » Mon 23 May, 2016 1:35 pm

You know what gents, I am almost embarrassed to say that was it!

I knew my layering was sound, I just couldn't work out why I had these chills on my back. Its always the simple most logical reasons that stump me :oops:

Thanks...nothing more to see here :arrow:
User avatar
DanShell
Athrotaxis selaginoides
Athrotaxis selaginoides
 
Posts: 1261
Joined: Mon 18 Mar, 2013 11:23 am
Location: Central
Region: Tasmania
Gender: Male

Re: Help with layering for cold

Postby Franco » Mon 23 May, 2016 3:20 pm

I feel that often enough that is the reason why some feel cold inside sleeping bags that are otherwise warm enogh.
Damp clothing and sweaty body.
Franco
Lagarostrobos franklinii
Lagarostrobos franklinii
 
Posts: 2957
Joined: Thu 30 Oct, 2008 6:48 pm
Region: Victoria
Gender: Male

Re: Help with layering for cold

Postby wayno » Mon 23 May, 2016 5:08 pm

i use merino in camp, and not for walking, holds too much sweat and is warmer for camp wear
from the land of the long white clouds...
User avatar
wayno
Lagarostrobos franklinii
Lagarostrobos franklinii
 
Posts: 8782
Joined: Sun 19 Jun, 2011 7:26 am
Location: NZ
Region: New Zealand
Gender: Male

Re: Help with layering for cold

Postby DarrenM » Wed 25 May, 2016 7:08 pm

Sometimes after a hard day, it doesn't matter how much I have on and I find standing around outside cooking/photography etc makes it worse.
The best thing I have come up with is just get in the tent and cook up plenty of hot food in the vestibule. Eat heaps and sleep works for me. Boring I know. :)
DarrenM
Athrotaxis cupressoides
Athrotaxis cupressoides
 
Posts: 465
Joined: Tue 19 Oct, 2010 7:10 pm
Location: Sydney
Region: New South Wales
Gender: Male

Re: Help with layering for cold

Postby wayno » Thu 26 May, 2016 4:44 am

DarrenM wrote:Sometimes after a hard day, it doesn't matter how much I have on and I find standing around outside cooking/photography etc makes it worse.
The best thing I have come up with is just get in the tent and cook up plenty of hot food in the vestibule. Eat heaps and sleep works for me. Boring I know. :)


by the end of the day your metabolism is slowing down esp if you havent kept your food intake up or you've had a long day walking. so you're producing less energy and body heat. nothing is warmer than being in a sleeping bag if you dont have a decent fire.
from the land of the long white clouds...
User avatar
wayno
Lagarostrobos franklinii
Lagarostrobos franklinii
 
Posts: 8782
Joined: Sun 19 Jun, 2011 7:26 am
Location: NZ
Region: New Zealand
Gender: Male

Re: Help with layering for cold

Postby paul_gee » Fri 27 May, 2016 10:35 am

wayno wrote:i use merino in camp, and not for walking, holds too much sweat and is warmer for camp wear


I wouldn't say it 'holds' too much sweat. It sure does become damp quicker and more readily but that's the beauty and point of wickability. Bring the moisture to the fibres and then let it evaporate.

I walked into work this morning, a 3.8km walk which I tend to do at a fairly brisk pace. I had a lightweight shell layer on, as there was a drizzle, a 150g Smartwool merino tee, a backpack, and by the time I got to work I was pretty damp. I floated around the shop for 15 minutes - grabbing a coffee, attending the morning meeting - and it was bone dry in no time. I've now popped a lightweight merino sweater over the top and feel dry and warm despite it being a chilly 15 degrees here at the moment, with a icy breeze blowing through the window I am sat next to.

(Haha. There's my morning routine in case you were wondering.)
Crazy keen tramper / trekker / hiker. Former South Australian. Now, exploring the tracks around Melbourne and Victoria.
User avatar
paul_gee
Athrotaxis cupressoides
Athrotaxis cupressoides
 
Posts: 204
Joined: Tue 10 Nov, 2015 8:12 am
Region: South Australia
Gender: Male

Re: Help with layering for cold

Postby Strider » Fri 27 May, 2016 11:03 am

paul_gee wrote:I wouldn't say it 'holds' too much sweat. It sure does become damp quicker and more readily but that's the beauty and point of wickability. Bring the moisture to the fibres and then let it evaporate.

But the problem is that is takes hours to evaporate. Once merino is wet through with sweat, it stays that way all day.
User avatar
Strider
Lagarostrobos franklinii
Lagarostrobos franklinii
 
Posts: 6030
Joined: Mon 07 Nov, 2011 6:55 pm
Location: Point Cook
Region: Victoria
Gender: Male

Re: Help with layering for cold

Postby wayno » Fri 27 May, 2016 11:14 am

Strider wrote:
paul_gee wrote:I wouldn't say it 'holds' too much sweat. It sure does become damp quicker and more readily but that's the beauty and point of wickability. Bring the moisture to the fibres and then let it evaporate.

But the problem is that is takes hours to evaporate. Once merino is wet through with sweat, it stays that way all day.


when you're regularly walking in places with high humidity, merino isnt the greatest with sweat that accumulates and won't go away easily
from the land of the long white clouds...
User avatar
wayno
Lagarostrobos franklinii
Lagarostrobos franklinii
 
Posts: 8782
Joined: Sun 19 Jun, 2011 7:26 am
Location: NZ
Region: New Zealand
Gender: Male

Re: Help with layering for cold

Postby photohiker » Fri 27 May, 2016 11:14 am

wayno wrote:
DarrenM wrote:Sometimes after a hard day, it doesn't matter how much I have on and I find standing around outside cooking/photography etc makes it worse.
The best thing I have come up with is just get in the tent and cook up plenty of hot food in the vestibule. Eat heaps and sleep works for me. Boring I know. :)


by the end of the day your metabolism is slowing down esp if you havent kept your food intake up or you've had a long day walking. so you're producing less energy and body heat. nothing is warmer than being in a sleeping bag if you dont have a decent fire.


This. +1

At the end of a day's walk you need more energy intake to recuperate. You should do that during your walk because your energy stores will otherwise be depleted at the end of the day. Takes time to get back to normal. Changing into dry clothes helps reduce heat loss, then get into shelter and take on some energy. Hot drink (soup is good) also helps.
Michael
User avatar
photohiker
Lagarostrobos franklinii
Lagarostrobos franklinii
 
Posts: 3130
Joined: Sun 17 May, 2009 12:31 pm
Location: Adelaide, dreaming up where to go next.

Re: Help with layering for cold

Postby wayno » Fri 27 May, 2016 11:19 am

normally when you stop at the end of the day your metabolism can start slowing down a fair bit, ideally you need to have something to eat not long after you stop walking for the day to prevent your metabolism to reduce how much it slows down, it speeds recovery as well if you can start eating within 20 minutes of stopping..
so if its going to be an hour or more till dinner, then think about having something else to eat that you can have ready earlier, a cold snack if necessary or a sweet drink...
from the land of the long white clouds...
User avatar
wayno
Lagarostrobos franklinii
Lagarostrobos franklinii
 
Posts: 8782
Joined: Sun 19 Jun, 2011 7:26 am
Location: NZ
Region: New Zealand
Gender: Male

Re: Help with layering for cold

Postby Moondog55 » Fri 27 May, 2016 12:42 pm

I don't really like instant soups but this end of day snack is where the product excels and why I carry something like it almost all the time but wearing hydrophobic underwear also helps with this after exercise chilling
Ve are too soon old und too late schmart
Moondog55
Lagarostrobos franklinii
Lagarostrobos franklinii
 
Posts: 11067
Joined: Thu 03 Dec, 2009 4:15 pm
Location: Norlane Geelong Victoria Australia
Region: Victoria
Gender: Male

Re: Help with layering for cold

Postby Moondog55 » Mon 13 Jun, 2016 10:00 am

Just a follow up question/suggestion.
When you know it is going to be damp and dank would you reconsider the layering priority now and wear the hydrophobic polypro layer next to your kin to avoid this after exercise chill that you found so uncomfortable?
Ve are too soon old und too late schmart
Moondog55
Lagarostrobos franklinii
Lagarostrobos franklinii
 
Posts: 11067
Joined: Thu 03 Dec, 2009 4:15 pm
Location: Norlane Geelong Victoria Australia
Region: Victoria
Gender: Male

Re: Help with layering for cold

Postby Gadgetgeek » Mon 13 Jun, 2016 9:14 pm

Just a thought, and this may be obvious to most. Poly-pro will hold less water per unit area/volume, but evaporates faster. Wool holds much more water for longer, and doesn't let it evaporate as fast.

Cooling due to evaporation is directly related to how fast the water can leave. So the poly-pro will chill a bit, but dry faster (since there is less water mass), and overall may provide less cooling than the wool, but the wool will let you stay warmer for longer as it slowly releases that water.

pretty much comes down to which advantage you need. I'll generally take the wool, and deal with the downsides, as I'm not a big fan of poly-pro, but it certainly has its place.

As an aside, I'm a pretty slight guy, 5"10 155lb, and if I start running low on fuel to burn I'll get cold pretty quick in the extremities. Since that's where the feeling of cold and discomfort starts, its not hard for me to chill down. But that's also a conditioning thing. Skin temp and core temp are not the same, and so there are some who can tolerate a cooler skin temp, this is actually their body being more efficient about not loosing heat, where as someone more used to having warm feeling skin is just blasting heat to the environment. You can be in full on shivers but not have your core temp affected. This is most common in people who are very conditioned to a climate controlled environment, and who's bodies are relying on the skin response for temp regulation since its quicker. Core temp is slower, but more "accurate" and those who acclimate to wider temp ranges seem to do better just in a comfort level. Of course they will both get hypothermia at the same time, all other things equal, but one will whine for longer before it sets in, and the more conditioned person will likely not feeling it until it hits. (again, all things equal, the conditioned person is likely to know they have to warm up, from experience) Of course this is all perfect situation theoretical stuff, reality is each person is going to tolerate each day and event a little differently. For most people internal heating is more efficient overall than external, as radiant heat will often set off a sweating response even if localized, so their body isn't absorbing much heat from the fire or heater, but their metabolism is reducing to compensate for the warmed part of the body. So you have someone chilling down farther, even though they are facing a raging fire.
Gadgetgeek
Athrotaxis selaginoides
Athrotaxis selaginoides
 
Posts: 1214
Joined: Sun 23 Sep, 2012 4:10 pm
Region: Queensland
Gender: Male

Re: Help with layering for cold

Postby photohiker » Mon 13 Jun, 2016 9:25 pm

We seem to be missing the basics here.

After an arduous walk in the cold and cooling temperatures, you have sweated all day. Your inner layer is moist. When you stop the water in the clothing continues to evaporate from your clothing, reducing temperature.

Swap your clothing for dry, recharge your metabolism, and add insulation. Dry insulation will work, wet clothing won't.
Michael
User avatar
photohiker
Lagarostrobos franklinii
Lagarostrobos franklinii
 
Posts: 3130
Joined: Sun 17 May, 2009 12:31 pm
Location: Adelaide, dreaming up where to go next.

Re: Help with layering for cold

Postby Moondog55 » Mon 13 Jun, 2016 9:48 pm

photohiker wrote:We seem to be missing the basics here.

After an arduous walk in the cold and cooling temperatures, you have sweated all day. Your inner layer is moist. When you stop the water in the clothing continues to evaporate from your clothing, reducing temperature.

Swap your clothing for dry, recharge your metabolism, and add insulation. Dry insulation will work, wet clothing won't.


I don't think it's always obvious tho, some people may not notice how much they are sweating if it isn't pouring off them or may have been wearing non-permeable outer layers that have trapped moisture and if it is cold and miserable it takes a lot of experience to make the uncomfortable short term effort to strip off and change. Woollen clothing can hold a lot of water and not feel at all damp; the reason I asked the question.
I have a sentimental attachment to a few of my woolen jumpers but I save them for camp use or downhill skiing
I honestly can't remember the last time I stripped off in winter Alpine conditions and changed at the end of the day as a matter of course; I usually don't need to because my clothing doesn't hold much water. So usually the second and third of those work well enough for me although in reverse order.
Add the warm layer/layers and then eat and drink
I must admit that after not taking spare under layers for ages I have gone back to packing warm underwear for emergency/sleeping use.
Ve are too soon old und too late schmart
Moondog55
Lagarostrobos franklinii
Lagarostrobos franklinii
 
Posts: 11067
Joined: Thu 03 Dec, 2009 4:15 pm
Location: Norlane Geelong Victoria Australia
Region: Victoria
Gender: Male

Re: Help with layering for cold

Postby GPSGuided » Mon 13 Jun, 2016 9:54 pm

photohiker wrote:We seem to be missing the basics here.

After an arduous walk in the cold and cooling temperatures, you have sweated all day. Your inner layer is moist. When you stop the water in the clothing continues to evaporate from your clothing, reducing temperature.

Swap your clothing for dry, recharge your metabolism, and add insulation. Dry insulation will work, wet clothing won't.

+1

When working hard with heavy sweating, no fancy material could cope with the volume of moisture involved. Swap for dry cloths at the first opportunity.
Just move it!
User avatar
GPSGuided
Lagarostrobos franklinii
Lagarostrobos franklinii
 
Posts: 6968
Joined: Mon 13 May, 2013 2:37 pm
Location: Sydney
Region: New South Wales

Re: Help with layering for cold

Postby Moondog55 » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 9:05 am

GPSGuided wrote:
photohiker wrote:We seem to be missing the basics here.

After an arduous walk in the cold and cooling temperatures, you have sweated all day. Your inner layer is moist. When you stop the water in the clothing continues to evaporate from your clothing, reducing temperature.

Swap your clothing for dry, recharge your metabolism, and add insulation. Dry insulation will work, wet clothing won't.

+1

When working hard with heavy sweating, no fancy material could cope with the volume of moisture involved. Swap for dry cloths at the first opportunity.


I can't agree totally with that; too much is dependent on too many other factors; but immediate after exercise chilling is related to the amount of moisture on the skin and in the first layer of clothing.
If you are already warm, hydrophobic underwear will be dry very quickly, how fast the rest of your clothing dries out is a function of your metabolism, the amount of water trapped in your clothing and the prevailing conditions.
The other side of this question is to ask why you were sweating so heavily in the first place; which is down to experience and stripping off enough clothing to be just on the cool side of comfortable when working.
Personally I sweat like a horse when working so tend to strip to underwear and a windshirt; if conditions allow I take off the windshirt.

A 100gram hydrophobic underwear piece will hold about a tenth of a gram of water, if your insulation is damp then how long it takes to dry out is a function of what it is made from.
I think stoking the furnace is far more important, but as with anything it's all based on personal experience.
One thing I have found tho is; if you are going to wear woollen next to the skin it has to be the lightest possible weight fabric and it helps to Nikwax it.
Ve are too soon old und too late schmart
Moondog55
Lagarostrobos franklinii
Lagarostrobos franklinii
 
Posts: 11067
Joined: Thu 03 Dec, 2009 4:15 pm
Location: Norlane Geelong Victoria Australia
Region: Victoria
Gender: Male

Re: Help with layering for cold

Postby DanShell » Tue 14 Jun, 2016 10:52 am

photohiker wrote:We seem to be missing the basics here.

After an arduous walk in the cold and cooling temperatures, you have sweated all day. Your inner layer is moist. When you stop the water in the clothing continues to evaporate from your clothing, reducing temperature.

Swap your clothing for dry, recharge your metabolism, and add insulation. Dry insulation will work, wet clothing won't.


This was the solution for me and the reason I was cold.
User avatar
DanShell
Athrotaxis selaginoides
Athrotaxis selaginoides
 
Posts: 1261
Joined: Mon 18 Mar, 2013 11:23 am
Location: Central
Region: Tasmania
Gender: Male

Re: Help with layering for cold

Postby bobcrusader » Fri 17 Nov, 2017 5:09 pm

Bringing up an old thread, but my question is on topic... The only constant thing about weather is that it changes. Layering is a great concept, but what do my fellow hikers do when starting out in the morning (let's say it's 1C on the Overland in January) then it warms up to 20C+? Do you walk in your base layers only? Or find a nice private spot and strip back to a mid layer? Or has someone worked out a good layering technique where the lighter (and perhaps more fashionable layer) is the base layer?
bobcrusader
Atherosperma moschatum
Atherosperma moschatum
 
Posts: 86
Joined: Sat 09 Sep, 2017 11:30 am
Region: Victoria
Gender: Male

Re: Help with layering for cold

Postby wildwanderer » Fri 17 Nov, 2017 6:00 pm

I usually wear a merino tshirt (which Il walk in if the terrain is not to scrubby). At camp il have my down jacket on and will remove it before walking.

During the zero degree mornings while walking Il have a full length thermal over the top of the tshirt then my rain jacket/wind jacket as the outer layer. Its usually warm enough as long as Im moving. I rarely walk with thermal bottoms, regular lightweight nylon pants is often enough. Usually after an hour or so il take off either the jacket or the full length thermal, depending on what the wind is doing. Once it starts really warming up I'l reduce again so im just wearing the tshirt. If it gets very sunny or scrubby, then I'l take off the tshirt and put on a long sleeve collared scrub shirt.

Even if there is people around it doesnt worry me to take off layers or even swap baselayers. If im swapping pants for whatever reason (dropbear attack etc) then Il usually find a tree.

So yeah thats my routine :P
User avatar
wildwanderer
Athrotaxis selaginoides
Athrotaxis selaginoides
 
Posts: 1640
Joined: Tue 02 May, 2017 8:42 am
Location: Out of lockdown \o/
Region: New South Wales
Gender: Male


Return to Equipment

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 22 guests