Big group turd digger

[Gadgetgeek]

Looking at having to carry a toilet trowel for a larger group (total around 70, in three groups, so three holes?) wondering if anyone has a good idea on a light, but full size spade for digging. Even a short handle spade would be do-able if its strong and light. Any specifics on what's good. worst case is I hit bunnings and just get the lightest, but I'd like some guidance if anyone has any.

[Moondog55]

Well actually I would have suggested the big green shed anyway

https://www.bunnings.com.au/saxon-auto- ... l_p3360641

What weighs the most is the wooden shaft and handle so if you have the time to fabricate a composite handle you could save quite a bit of weight
I carry my grandads old army "Tanker" shovel in the ute; it is a little bigger but the cheap Saxon will last a while, steel isn't that good but it is a handy size

[Strider]

70 people in an area without established toilets? Surely this is a joke.

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[icefest]

Looking at having to carry a toilet trowel for a larger group (total around 70, in three groups, so three holes?) wondering if anyone has a good idea on a light, but full size spade for digging. Even a short handle spade would be do-able if its strong and light. Any specifics on what's good. worst case is I hit bunnings and just get the lightest, but I'd like some guidance if anyone has any.

Just hire a dunny.

70 people is like 40kg kg of poop. That's way too big an environmental load for one weekend.

[corvus]

For that number you will need to dig proper Latrine pits that I suspect would be difficult to do with any light weight digging tool.

[RonK]

Easy enough to find army surplus entrenching tools on the internet.

[corvus]

Easy enough to find army surplus entrenching tools on the internet.

Not so easy to did said latrine eh!

[Gadgetgeek]

Yep it will have to be proper latrine holes, and I want to make sure the job gets done right, hence not wanting to pack in a little folding E-tool if I can help it. (we have a stack of them, I'm thinking that for the weight I should be able to get more handle) dunnys are out of the question unless we convince someone to pay to helo-drop them in.

Strider, I sorely wish it was, but its not. Its a fairly common practice as far as I'm aware. Not that it makes a huge difference, but its that many people passing through (ha) over a few days, so its not all one big hit, but still needs to be done right. Normally its the kids job to see to it, but in this case, its their first time, so they haven't done that before, previously they walked from caravan park to caravan park I think, so this will be way harder core than what they are used to.

[Moondog55]

Making a proper latrine should be part of every group leaders skill set
Just read the older scout handbooks etc
Made properly a decent latrine is no different to a pit toilet but I would carry some Actizyme with me. Make up a solution and use it to speed up the decomposition
A decent shovel makes the job a lot easier, the more handle you can pack the easier it gets. of course latrine users also have to be instructed in the proper use of latrines, Baby wipes and other non-biodegradables are a definite No-No as are disinfectants etc.

[Gadgetgeek]

Maintenance and use of the latrine will be under the group leader's guidance, I'm just there to get them started, as its going to be a fair task to get the hole dug, along with all the other things they will have to do on a long walking day, so we are keeping this one easy. Putting in a few creature comforts for them, since they need to tell the next years grade its worth doing. Normally we'd have them dig for themselves, as part of the experience. And due to the temps they will be packing a bit heavy.

[Dynamic_knight]

You could try a decent 4wd shovel. Or a post hole shovel with the handle cut down. I use the sawn off post hole quite a bit in tight spaces. If you cut it to short your arms end up doing all the work when it comes to the actual digging side of things.

I should also add you can buy any shovel with a d handle cut it down and reattach the handle.

[Gadgetgeek]

Considering the 4wd shovel, just have to get a feel of it in-store.

[Nuts]

That's a big load of foreign matter! Do the bush a favour and take some poo tubes? Not much more weight or expense.
I know, we humans have this bizzare aversion to our poo, but compared to the effort of digging latrines, carrying it out is really not that big a deal either, especially for a group.

There aren't many opportunities for bushwalkers to show respect, without being told or 'educated', paying off the impact or analyzing the value.. just coz. This is one of them.

Give a tube to the coolest kid first, with a tenner, make that a redback if he'll talk the experience up!

[corvus]

How Long is your proposed trip ?

[dunamis]

In India for large gatherings they dig some 6ft deep holes by say 8inches diameter and spaced about 4ft apart in rows. They must have used an augur I guess. You could approximate this approach using a fence post type long handled shovel or the long trench approach where it gradually gets filled back in as people use it.


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[Gadgetgeek]

They only need holes for one night. The subject of tubes has come up, and it may be an option in later years. I agree that its not the ideal way to do this, but it must be balanced against the reality that if the walk doesn't go well, there will be another provider to take over. At least this way it can be a point of discussion, and they can get some sense of what mod-cons really provide. There is only so much to be done.

[Moondog55]

What does the book say about groups??
I haven't yet read it

https://www.amazon.com/How-Shit-Woods-3 ... 1580083633

I do know quite a bit about composting tho and one tip I can give you is to use leaf litter as well as dirt when covering up each deposit; also as the paper takes much longer to break down than the rest of it if you take a small poo tube for the used paper most of the evidence will be gone in a very short time
Actually taking along a "Used paper" tube may also raise environmental awareness amongst the participants

[Gadgetgeek]

In an ideal world we will add that to the program down the track. But right now the logistics chain on this trip is getting tough, so while it pains me, we need lowest common denominator. We will be doing the "dirt flush" method and picking sites that should have more organic matter as a starting place. As far as I understand the permit for the location does take this into account, so that should avoid an overload of the area.

[davidf]

Do not take 70 people away from a road and amenities for any reason. There is no rational reason to do this. At least make them carry there *&%$#!. If they have to be in a group of 70 thats what they are.

[Moondog55]

Do not take 70 people away from a road and amenities for any reason. There is no rational reason to do this. At least make them carry there *&%$#!. If they have to be in a group of 70 thats what they are.

That's a bit harsh and unrealistic David
It seems the trip is happening anyway
What would you rather see?/ A latrine properly dug and properly utilised or a group of 70 people crapping everywhere with no regard for hygiene?
I've been in many groups this big or bigger with no problems at all; it's called the Army; and with proper organisation it can be done totally Leave No Trace

[davidf]

Yes the reply was harsh.

70 people can carry there turds out over a 2 day trip. I dont walk the talk all the time, admit. In the snow i do for instance. Poo tubes are heavy. A dry bag lined with a rubbish bag can work well. General shopping bags, think the ones at coles, are easy to poo in. Bag the poo out. I hope that is constructive.

[ribuck]

Back in the days when large groups weren't forbidden in wilderness areas, I went to some of the annual reunions organized by the (then) Federation of Bushwalking Clubs. A typical number of participants was 70, and no latrine was provided. Everyone just found a spot away from camp (and away from watercourses of course), dug their own hole and did their business. I visited many of those places again over the years, and never saw any evidence that the environment hadn't recycled the poo just fine.

Part of being environmentally-aware is realizing that people can overload the ability of the natural environment to cope. The other part is being aware that there are things that the environment CAN cope with, and 70 people at a one-night bush camp is one of those things. Just remind them not to take a dump near a watercourse.

[Gadgetgeek]

Davidf, I understand where you are coming from. But the reality is this is the only exposure to bushwalking that these students will get. So either I and my team do the best we can to make it a positive, and they want to continue it on their own as they get older, or it becomes a thing they "had to do" that has a negative influence on their view of nature, and when it comes time for them to make decisions that will help or hurt the natural areas, they will opt for pavement. Now don't hear that as some holier-than-thou moral crusade. But the truth is that school camps play a big part in getting urban kids out into the wilderness. And we take our role in that very seriously. In this particular case, we are battling the perceptions left with them from past camps and other bad experiences. And in this case, a little comfort will go a long way to get them over the barrier. If next year the students are up for a greater challenge, then one will be provided.

[robbieb]

I know this is likely too late, but what did you end up taking? I personally would have taken a post hole shovel and cut the handle in half. Find a metal tube with inside diameter matching handle, drill a couple holes and insert bolts. Shovel is now take down capable with hopefully still enough strength to do the job, or usable with shorter handle

[Gadgetgeek]

haven't had a chance to go look yet, that will be an after work friday task. Trip is next week.

[Gadgetgeek]

First off, thanks to everyone who threw in ideas on this one, with more time and thought, I would have been able to put some of them into play perhaps, but time was not on my side this time.

Just hit bunnings to take a closer look, and found three options:
Cheapest/smallest is their d-handle 4x4 shovel. Might be suited for a large child's beach toy, but too small to be useful as a 4x4 shovel, and didn't really look all that tough. The leverage gained for the weight didn't seem to be worth it.

Middle option, and still pretty cheap was the Cyclone courtyard shovel. Timber handle, smallish blade, and to be honest would make a good choice. probably could cut down the handle a bit as well, and still have a very good shovel. The only reason I didn't go for it, the handles didn't seem that great, and its a bit of a risk considering where I'm going. With a little work it would make a great group digger.

Next up, and the big-bad of the lot is the fiskars light series shovel. Only a little heavier than the cyclone, although hard to tell without the scale how much exactly. Larger blade, tougher looking, with an aluminum handle, and plastic D. Ultimately I went with this one even though its twice the cost of the cyclone, and four times the 4x4 shovel, simply due to its feel of improved durability. It will also serve as my truck shovel, so its not like it won't see any other use, and I felt it was a good compromise. Would I carry this on a multi-day walk? probably not, in that case a chopped cyclone would be useful as part of a groups walking kit. In this case its a balance of carry weight, vs. energy expended while actually digging.

[Gusto]

Post hole shovel with the hadle cut in half. Should cost about $16 for a shovel.

I have alot of experince working with groups of students. It's remarkable how much damage an energetic and exhausted adolencent can do to a shovel. You need heavy duty. Don't be concerned by weight. Just regularly rotate it amongst the group.

As for the style of hole. A shallow trench is often best. You may wish to collect the used toilet paper in a paper bag and then burn it.

Remember to consider the needs of females to dispose of sanitary pads etc.

[Gusto]

If you have car access then buy some of these
http://www.menacemarine.com.au/thunder- ... vQodcXYEDw

Also have some sawdust or similar to sprinkle into to bucket.

Don't wee in the bucket

[Gadgetgeek]

No road access, so it gets carried in. we use smaller entrenching tools when the kids have to dig, I just wanted leverage and beef to do the digging. For most uses, the courtyard shovel would be great. Sanitary products are packed out, they are provided with ziplocks and paper bags for the purpose, as well as larger general trash bags. Fire is not an option.

Again, all good ideas, just had a bunch of extra factors that I have in my head, so its what I've decided, it may or may not work. Very much a one-off. We will be going again in a few months, and I won't digging holes for those kids, since they will have already had to do that on other trips.

[Gadgetgeek]

Just an update, the shovel did very well. in hindsight the courtyard shovel would have been enough, but it was nice to have the bigger shovel to get the job done with. good trip all around.