Tent for next winter ? Design input and help

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Tent for next winter ? Design input and help

Postby Moondog55 » Wed 16 Nov, 2016 10:20 am

So this winter where I ski I went through 3 S/H tents

I guess it is time I stopped modifying cheap tents and built one from the ground up

I have several minimum design criteria tho

First it has to be haulable on a paris sled
Second it will be a hot tent so I can dry out wet ski gear
Third it needs to be tall enough for me to stand in and stretch and I'm just over 6 feet tall with long arms and able to allow the use a king sized cot
Fourthly it needs to be double skin for fuel efficiency
And last but probably the most important it needs to be strong enough to handle tonnes of wet snow fall and winds of 60mph with gusts of double that, most of you know how bad the weather at Pretty Valley can get
I do have the super strong hybrid CF reinforced pole from a few seasons back and one of my first thoughts is a tipi tunnel combination but the panel design for that is probably beyond my ability and we don't own a modern 3-D CAD program to help with the pattern design
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Re: Tent for next winter ? Design input and help

Postby Moondog55 » Thu 17 Nov, 2016 1:23 pm

OK
Comments please
Wide tunnel 2400 wide by 3600 long Gothic arch poles 2200 high in the centre, could go as low as 2100mm but no lower for comfort
Sleeping section 2400 * 900
Central section 2400 * 1800
Entry section 2400 * 900
Bell ended with doors on each side of centre so it stays pegged down at all times. Single skin in the entry, doubled layered in the rest of the tent Sleeping area floored but no floor where the stove will be Rear emergency exit
Tapered from 2200 high in the middle to 1800 high at the ends
Absolutely minimum mesh but Low/high venting
4 or 5 poles depending on fabric choice/cost/strength analysis
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Re: Tent for next winter ? Design input and help

Postby stu_m » Thu 17 Nov, 2016 2:38 pm

200km/h is a lot more wind than any tent I know is going to take (outside specialist 30kg tents... and even then I don't know what they are rated for/whether they would survive)...Why build your own? Go with something proven:

http://www.antarctica.gov.au/living-and ... amid-tents

https://www.oneplanet.com.au/industrial ... peditions/
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Re: Tent for next winter ? Design input and help

Postby Moondog55 » Thu 17 Nov, 2016 3:02 pm

OP won't sell to me. I asked, they have definite minimum order quantities and the smaller ones they will sell are too small for long term comfort
Beside budgetary restraints I like to sew
200 kph gusts and micro-bursts is why I went though three tents this ski season but they were not specialist tents and they were not new either
There are US tents suitable and rated but these would cost in excess of $3k each after shipping duty and GST, about $2k- more than I can save in time
30 kilos is my design weight maximum for this tent but if I could get it for 20 kilos that is a lot of Mars Bars or a tank of propane
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Re: Tent for next winter ? Design input and help

Postby Neo » Thu 17 Nov, 2016 3:16 pm

MD add a sketch of your idea. Here is my own imaginings of a giant diamond with a reinforced chimney hole in the middle. The dark lines are 4 poles. Four big panels the same shape/mirrored and 4 smaller ones.
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Re: Tent for next winter ? Design input and help

Postby Moondog55 » Thu 17 Nov, 2016 3:33 pm

I wish I could draw well but these are the quick sketches of the idea i have in my head
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Re: Tent for next winter ? Design input and help

Postby Moondog55 » Thu 17 Nov, 2016 3:46 pm

There are tents f this size around, just that most of them are only 3-season /summer tents

http://www.k2.com.au/product/ursa-vi
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Re: Tent for next winter ? Design input and help

Postby stu_m » Thu 17 Nov, 2016 8:06 pm

According to this, Scott tents are rated to 100kph and they are already burly looking tents viewtopic.php?f=15&t=14329
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Re: Tent for next winter ? Design input and help

Postby Moondog55 » Thu 17 Nov, 2016 8:15 pm

Yep
My Megamid looked just like that after last years blast stu_m
Tents can only be made so strong before they become as heavy as a hut but I may place the camp closer to PV hut as that is a much more lenient environment
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Re: Tent for next winter ? Design input and help

Postby Neo » Fri 18 Nov, 2016 4:00 pm

I pinched this of the internet, looks like an easy way to draw a Gothic arch. There would be some way of measuring the length of the arc or you could do a quarter circumference with the excess as a skirt for piling snow on.
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Re: Tent for next winter ? Design input and help

Postby Moondog55 » Sat 19 Nov, 2016 6:39 am

Thanx Neo, while we do call them Gothic arch tents they aren't really but I didn't know how the arch was drawn.
This ski camp would be a lot easier to work for if I didn't need to sleep on a cot and be able to stand up and stretch out while getting dressed.
I really dislike the idea of buying another cheap tent, modifying it and still having to toss it in the bin after 8 weeks but that may be what happens
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Re: Tent for next winter ? Design input and help

Postby Moondog55 » Sat 19 Nov, 2016 11:55 am

The DIY/MYOG project may well take me longer than I have to get ready for 2017, just in case does anybody have any experience or opinions on the REI Kingdom series of tents?
They come in 3 sizes and one of my reasons for looking at them is the $20-USD shipping and the current 20% discount so even the biggest of them come here under the majik $1k AUD limit
A better tent from Cabelas they want $400- USD to ship
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Re: Tent for next winter ? Design input and help

Postby undercling-mike » Sat 19 Nov, 2016 12:40 pm

A ground up DIY tent build of the type you're considering certainly is a big undertaking. Anyway, some options that come to mind: if you're getting crazt shipping quotes from the US it might be worth looking at parcel forwarding services like Shipito, would certainly be less than US$400 to ship.

Have you considered something like this: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/authent ... 840a1e0aaa
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Re: Tent for next winter ? Design input and help

Postby Moondog55 » Sat 19 Nov, 2016 12:52 pm

Did indeed mike, they come from the same factory as the Rays unit from the feel and look of them [ saw one in the States- same as the Cabelas] would last about a month even with my CF centre pole and apparently they leak like a sieve
Feedback from American mates is mixed on the REI Kingdom, but they are the right shape and size and no stupid polyethylene floor
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Re: Tent for next winter ? Design input and help

Postby undercling-mike » Sat 19 Nov, 2016 1:07 pm

Fair enough. That one looked promising at first glance even though it doesn't meet all of your criteria. Having a tent set up long term in winter conditions is a pretty tough requirement.
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Re: Tent for next winter ? Design input and help

Postby Moondog55 » Sat 19 Nov, 2016 1:56 pm

The red one was great until the first big storm stretched the fabric and opened up lots of micro-hole which then let the water in
I just took the red Rays unit to the tip after stripping some of the extra from it. More rips this year and the seams were letting go
But it was only $99-?? maybe $199- I can't really remember, when I bought it on clearance a few years ago
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Re: Tent for next winter ? Design input and help

Postby Michaelculhane » Sun 20 Nov, 2016 7:01 pm

Any tall tent is going to be more suceptible to the wind than a lower tent (for the same basic desgin), i imagine. Given your tent s planned to be large, have you considered excavating a 30-40cm deep pit in a part of it allowing you to stretch and dress, but keeping a lower overall height with better wind resistance
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Re: Tent for next winter ? Design input and help

Postby RonK » Sun 20 Nov, 2016 7:39 pm

Are you aware of this site? Would these plans be useful?

By Example.
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Re: Tent for next winter ? Design input and help

Postby Moondog55 » Mon 21 Nov, 2016 4:39 pm

Thought about it a winter or three ago but like a tipi you do lose a bit of usable ground close to the walls unless you choose the tall version but I think I prefer my headroom to be linear if it's only 2200
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Re: Tent for next winter ? Design input and help

Postby Bushman_Craig » Tue 22 Nov, 2016 10:26 am

undercling-mike wrote:A ground up DIY tent build of the type you're considering certainly is a big undertaking. Anyway, some options that come to mind: if you're getting crazt shipping quotes from the US it might be worth looking at parcel forwarding services like Shipito, would certainly be less than US$400 to ship.

Have you considered something like this: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/authent ... 840a1e0aaa


Not much chop I'm afraid. I have one of these and it's little more than a toy. Same for the ones from BCF, Rays Outdoors and even the American-based Sportsman's Guide "Guide Gear" green nylon teepees - mostly all junk just taking up space in my shed.

My final "basecamp" tent for car camping and such is a 2016-spec PU-coated canvas 4m bell tent. Big enough to live in for a week or three, has a stove jack built in to the wall (but the jack itself doesn't appear to be fireproof and would need a silicone one added). Has screened vents near the peak. Has full mozzie netting. Ditch the PVC groundsheet and replace with one home made from a Bunnings canvas dropsheet and you'll save about 10kg off the full 25kg weight, so it should be sledable. As mentioned previously in the thread, it can be dug in like the British used to do with their Sibley tents during the Crimean war to increase headroom and living space. The big question is how it would go having a big dump of snow... oh, and it's single-wall.

Mine was A$550 posted off Aliexpress. Took just under two weeks to arrive.

Image
An engraving from an early edition of Galton's The Art of Travel showing a dug-in "permanent tent.

Some pics of my 4m bell tent:

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
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Re: Tent for next winter ? Design input and help

Postby Moondog55 » Tue 22 Nov, 2016 12:21 pm

I have looked at the small Sibley from China and The Boss rather fancies the big one with double poles for "Glamping" but something just a little smaller in height for this coming season
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Re: Tent for next winter ? Design input and help

Postby stu_m » Tue 22 Nov, 2016 7:16 pm

If the Scott tents are rated to 100kmh then I'm guessing the one pictured is good for about 20kmh (I exaggerate but not much)
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Re: Tent for next winter ? Design input and help

Postby Moondog55 » Tue 22 Nov, 2016 7:24 pm

100 isn't much of a wind really when talking about some sections of our hills
If I had the ability to drag the weight the old army canvas 11by [11*22 feet] is rated to that and higher when staked down well but 100 kilos is too much for me to drag that far, it is after all a steel frame and very thick canvas. I do think the Sibleys would handle more than 20 kph if you used a proper strong centre pole tho
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Re: Tent for next winter ? Design input and help

Postby stu_m » Tue 22 Nov, 2016 8:37 pm

100 is a lot of wind for a tent - after all buildings sustain damage in those winds. I just think you are optimistic about what the structures discussed can handle (especially given their size). 100kg tent is a completely different ballgame to a 30kg one all things being equal. The Scott tent and similar dedicated arctic expedition tents look like they would handle strong sustained winds despite their size (thick frames etc), the other tents mentioned as far as I know are not designed for that kind of abuse and should be expected to fail in any half serious alpine wind... Just trying to point out potential safety issues for those that may stumble across this thread and accept discussions at face value without question and get themselves into serious trouble.
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Re: Tent for next winter ? Design input and help

Postby Moondog55 » Tue 22 Nov, 2016 9:53 pm

100kph is a lot of wind but not for this particular area
I quite often get picked up and blown off my feet in this area, if there were cliffs or steep gullies I'd be roped up.
As far as I am aware the Scott Antarctic tents used 4 corner poles because they are much faster to erect not because that configuration is necessarily stronger.
Badly designed buildings suffer damage at 100klicks, well constructed and built to code they should handle 160 without trouble. 160 is the design windspeed for my area
Like all things it's a compromise between weight and strength, just like a racing yacht.
Something will get built or modified and if it doesn't cope that is why I always have a back-up in a mountaineering tent.
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Re: Tent for next winter ? Design input and help

Postby Moondog55 » Wed 23 Nov, 2016 4:31 pm

What are peoples thoughts on the Black Wolf Tuffdome twin as the basis of a winter tent?
On-line feedback is mixed on the strength of the poles but it does have that very necessary floorless vestibule for shedding wet ski gear and stacking firewood
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Re: Tent for next winter ? Design input and help

Postby stu_m » Wed 23 Nov, 2016 4:44 pm

Cool. Would be interested in video in measured winds once you settle on something :)



Moondog55 wrote:100kph is a lot of wind but not for this particular area
I quite often get picked up and blown off my feet in this area, if there were cliffs or steep gullies I'd be roped up.
As far as I am aware the Scott Antarctic tents used 4 corner poles because they are much faster to erect not because that configuration is necessarily stronger.
Badly designed buildings suffer damage at 100klicks, well constructed and built to code they should handle 160 without trouble. 160 is the design windspeed for my area
Like all things it's a compromise between weight and strength, just like a racing yacht.
Something will get built or modified and if it doesn't cope that is why I always have a back-up in a mountaineering tent.
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Re: Tent for next winter ? Design input and help

Postby Moondog55 » Thu 24 Nov, 2016 11:26 am

Stu if I can get the money together I should get one of those small self contained weather stations that plug into a smart phone or small pad but how would I take movies at the same time? Not really a Luddite but I can't keep up with the technology it moves so fast.
Have you ever camped at Pretty Valley? It's a wind funnel area at the horseyards, move a half klick and the wind drops to half speed or less and at the hut the same but from a different direction. There are several very well sheltered spots but suffer from very heavy snow drop as they are overhung with big trees, there really isn't much of a happy medium if I want to ski most days
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Re: Tent for next winter ? Design input and help

Postby stu_m » Thu 24 Nov, 2016 2:05 pm

No - have only every skied at falls creek - done no camping in Vic.

Re movies - I guess it's not an option if your smart phone is on weather duty.

Moondog55 wrote:Stu if I can get the money together I should get one of those small self contained weather stations that plug into a smart phone or small pad but how would I take movies at the same time? Not really a Luddite but I can't keep up with the technology it moves so fast.
Have you ever camped at Pretty Valley? It's a wind funnel area at the horseyards, move a half klick and the wind drops to half speed or less and at the hut the same but from a different direction. There are several very well sheltered spots but suffer from very heavy snow drop as they are overhung with big trees, there really isn't much of a happy medium if I want to ski most days
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Re: Tent for next winter ? Design input and help

Postby Moondog55 » Mon 12 Dec, 2016 11:43 am

Well due to finance restraints I am definitely back to the idea of fixing another cheap tent.
A big tunnel with a wood stove is still my ideal tho.
I brought a DIY thread back to the top; a Coleman but an early reasonably well built one.
I think apart from deciding on which poles to get the biggest problem is the large sail area of unsupported fabric on the sides of it
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