Using Terra Nova Laser Competition 1 in snow

[andrewa]

I was wondering whether anyone had had any experience with this tent in snow and wind?

I have one ( ex underclingmike), and was planning on "pimping" it somewhat...more tie downs, and end zips for better ventilation, with the intention of using it on Bogong this Winter/Spring.

A

[Orion]

I have a tent of similar design -- one hoop pole, triangular struts on the ends. I've taken it out into the snow a few times when I've been the odd man out. A trip earlier this year had one super windy night. We were getting blown over trying to ski out the next day. I anchored the tent really well and, because the inner has a lot of netting, I piled snow around the base to essentially seal myself in on windward side. It helped that the fly on this tent goes basically to the ground already. The reduced ventilation wasn't an issue since it was so windy. My tent doesn't have a true inner like the Competition 1. It's more like a tarp tent, with a floor, a zip door and some integral mosquito netting, but otherwise a single skin shelter.

I haven't had to deal with copious amounts of snowfall in it. I imagine that would require some regular maintenance to keep things from piling up too much, which is true of most tents actually.


My friends in their old Nallo 2 didn't sleep very well with all of the fabric flapping. I think my little tent was less noisy.

[Moondog55]

Deep valances all around and an internal cordage brace for the big wand perhaps

[andrewa]

Yeah, I agree that valences would be a good addition. I have some 0.3 oz cuben, which is otherwise useless, but could be v useful here. Might upgrade the poles. Will play with it the week after next when all the family are away.

[Moondog55]

I'd recommend not sewing the valance on however, sew buttons or toggles on the valance and corresponding loops on the tent, only use them in winter if needed. How much weight would going to the new Easton CF pole save??
http://tentpoletechnologies.com/?page_id=631
If the picture is anything to go by then double the pole tie downs by adding extra higher up and an equalising ring system

[Moondog55]

I just had another thought too.
While it may add a hundred grams using two stakes as storm guys at each side will be a triangle and much more stable; use a hook connector to join the dual guys to the ring, this is of course supposing you are using your skis to ski on, of course skis make excellent tiedowns

[Franco]

There is a chance that CF poles will not work with that design (too tight radius)
I would not suggest CF for snow loads nor that tent design if 20cm or more of wet snow could be possible.
(not without strong end support/tension and possibly an additional traverse pole)

[Mark F]

The existing structure fully guyed out will handle very strong winds - I have had mine in 100 kph winds - but may collect snow on the upper mid section but that is more of an issue in low wind conditions. The mods I am still trying to work out are to reinforce the ends with inverted V poles and simultaneously improving ventilation.

The fly comes very close to the ground compared to many tents so I would not be pursuing the sod cloth mod in the first instance. In this picture I have the end V lifted to improve ventilation (you can just make out the yellow of the inner tent) but I feel it needs to be improved with a zip opening or overlapped flaps ZPacks Duplex style so the ends can be fully opened in good conditions.

Tent at South Ramshead

This is the tent the morning after. Based on my experience wit the tent I would add pegging points mid way along each the lower side edges of the fly. Combining this mod with stabilizing the more vertical edges of the V this should make the tent "bomber". The later versions have additional guying points mid way up the vertical edges of the V but I believe putting in an inverted V pole in both ends will stabilize the tent better and hopefully reduce the number of pegs needed at each end to 2.

Morning after the storm

Note. I did have the side guys from the main pole activated over night although neither photo shows them pegged out.

I did look at getting cf poles from Fibraplex but the saving in weight wasn't that great only saving 73g. The radius needed is too tight for most tent cf poles eg Easton.

During the storm I was able to cook inside the vestibule without a windshield around the gas stove which show how little wind was able to enter.

[andrewa]

Thx Mark.

Even though I've had it for months, I haven't really had a good look at the tent yet, but will pitch it next week and have a fiddle.

Mine didn't come with the additional pole support cover, so I will need to make one of these ( fortunately a mate has the same tent, so I have something to copy/modify). I'm planning on adding zips to both ends for extra ventilation. The extra peg out points make sense, and I'll try to get my head around the V struts at the ends.

Will report back once I've done some mods. At least I now know it has the basis for staying upright in a howler. As to snow shedding, my Hilleberg Nallo doesn't shed that well, so it shouldn't be much worse!

A

[Moondog55]

Franco the new CF wands from Easton apparently can bend past 360 degrees, with enough length; they are however twice the cost of the same size in .355 alloy but a third the weight

http://tentpoletechnologies.com/?page_id=631

New page on the website just recently

Mark my experience in winter conditions of the Bogong High Plains puts valances right at the top of my list of must haves for winter, making them removable means you only carry the extra weight when needed. My Minaret really needs them and I've not done it yet

[Moondog55]

How does the TerraNova compare to the Hilleberg Akto?
I will eventually need a new solo tent and it will need to be winter strong and very easy to put up

[stry]

Thanks for asking that MD. That exact question is on my mind.

Differences obvious to me are weight and the eye watering price. Height over one's feet and ventilation are questions for me.

[Moondog55]

Price is an issue I agree

[Mark F]

A google will reveal a lot of discussion some years ago, about 2010, in the UK on the relative merits of the Laser Competition and variants versus the Akto. The general conclusion was that the Akto was a little more stable, more volume and better ventilated compared to the Laser but at the expense of greater weight. I agree with this consensus.

Edit - I would compare the Laser to the Hilleberg Enan rather than the Akto but the Enan didn't exist at that time. The end ventilation on the Enan is what I am hoping to achieve with my Laser Comp.

The ventilation in the Laser has recently been overhauled but I have no idea whether it is a major improvement or not. The Laser Competition has appeared on MassDrop https://www.massdrop.com/buy/terra-nova-laser-series where it was available at what I remember to be a very competitive price.

[Penguin]

Mark wrote: In this picture I have the end V lifted to improve ventilation (you can just make out the yellow of the inner tent) but I feel it needs to be improved with a zip opening or overlapped flaps ZPacks Duplex style so the ends can be fully opened in good conditions.

Mark, I also own one of these and it has served me very well in a range of exposed environments, especially wind. I do not want to hijack the head but I am interested in following your modifications re ventilation. I love the space, ease of pitch, apparent ruggedness and the ability to cook easily in the vestibule of this tent. If I can improve the ventilation on the warmer nights it would be a long time before I will need to replace the tent.

I do not want to hijack the thread though.

P

[Moondog55]

Mark I don't thing the Enan would be strong enough for my intended use so what is around that is similar and 4th season suitable. Or would you simply use the Laser and add strength?
In winter I don't think I need to much extra ventilation unless it is a modification towards a Low / high air flow

[Mark F]

Md - I don't see a lot of difference between the Laser and the Enan especially as they have changed the fabric to the standard yellow range Kerlon 1000 from their original super light fabric. It uses the same 9mm pole as the Akto which is a tad stronger than the Laser pole. The thing in favour of the Enan, rated as non-snow, compared to the Akto which is rated 4 season is the sloped sides of the Enan rather than what appear to be snow collecting shelves at the ends of the Akto. The Akto should have a bit more space at the ends for feet given the rectangular vs triangular end profiles. In wet Australian snow I expect that whatever you have you need to knock snow off it or push it away from the sides at regular intervals.

My interest is focused on the lightest that will do the job in difficult conditions rather than perform superbly in extreme conditions hence choosing a 1kg tent like the Laser Comp rather than 2+kg tent like the Soulo or Unna. I am sure Franco will be along soon with some more suggestions.

Penguin - when I do the mod I will post details. It will involve flattening the end V, making it in mesh with a roll back flap/doors to provide the same level of protection as currently enjoyed. The main issue I am debating is how to fit an inverted V of poles in a way that provides additional stability along with ease of insertion.

[Moondog55]

I do wonder about the snow load on the flat surface, although I am looking a for a non-Australian trip I would want to use it when I got home. A CF "A" strut may be stronger too.

[north-north-west]

MD - trying not to be too personal here, but something the size of an Akto is more like a bivvy than a tent for you.

[andrewa]

Haha. NNW, it is actually the bivy that provides the protection when the outer 1 season modified family room blows away!

Moondog must appreciate his quirkiness - surely!

A

[Moondog55]

Come on every body I'm only 184 tall, just big with it these days, it's finding room for the esky that's hard.
Seriously tho I do want something a tad lighter than the Plateau/Minaret these days since the Megamid dieded

[andrewa]

Mark (F), I'm going to start modifying my tent next week, and am interested in why you are wanting an inverted " v" pole at the end, rather than the single vertical one? I found this piccy of a later version, and was thinking this might be even better as a mod. Maybe extended a bit as a curvy hood that brings 3 guy lines together at one guy point, like the original Early Winters Omnipotent tent?

[Franco]

The inverted V frame can work if it helps pulling those two panels in tension , like this :


otherwise you will still possibly get more leverage to pull the ridge in tension but maybe not that much.

[Mark F]

The purpose of the inverted V pole is to stabilise end of the tent as Franco's photo shows and I think represents the best approach and tidies up the rear guy numbers. In very strong wind I noticed that the edges of the rear triangle would buckle a little and allow the sides to flap. Terra Nova originally did not have mid point guy attachments which would help control this edge but added them later. The new 2017 arrangement as per Andrews photo has tried to simplify the number of guy lines but I suspect hasn't improved the stability and possibly reduced it. While not relevant to the problem the end panel now appears to have a permanently open vent occupying one half which is sheltered by the cowl and the inner tent now has an adjustable panel to block the air flow. This doesn't seem like a good idea for use in snow - I would want to stop any wind blown snow from getting between the inner and outer skins.

In connection with the flexing of the rear edges the long bottom seams also would lift and I believe the two are connected. This is why I plan to fit mid pegging points to the side bottom seams. Slit the hem stitching, glue on a reinforcing patch and restitch with a grosgrain loop.

[Moondog55]

I don't understand why they don't simply bring the rear all the way to the ground with 3 small panels of fabric in a simple bell end
How much would such a small amount of material and an extra peg or two weigh?

[Mark F]

md - you will see in the earlier photos that is basically what the older tents did. The issue is improving ventilation and I think the new system will improve ventilation but reduce the usability in snow and does nothing for performance in strong winds. The inverted V poles with the ability to leave the end open or close it off, perhaps with a small cowl for cover, will largely sort out the ventilation problem while improving stormworthiness.

[Franco]

"I don't understand why they don't simply bring the rear all the way to the ground with 3 small panels of fabric in a simple bell end
How much would such a small amount of material and an extra peg or two weigh?"

Not unusual in the British forums to have one of those tents described as "portable sauna".
Condensation increases with reduced air flow.
At low temps high humidity/condensation feels colder than a lower dry temp.

[andrewa]

Mark, have you seen anything around commercially to join the v poles at the top, or is it one of those DIY jobs?

Franco, thanks for pointing that out. I was thinking how nice it would be to add a "vestibulette" for putting boots in, but I don't want a portable sauna! I was thinking a vestibullette would make it better with tail to wind, but not at that cost.

A

[Mark F]

Andrew - I have toyed with the idea of an internal ferrule of al rod/tube at the apex but the shape being a triangle doesn't need a rigid angle. The other issue this design deals with is connecting the top guy attachment point to apex of the pole tube.

My current thinking is to make a tube of sil-nylon with the central 6cm being a wrap of grosgrain. This sewed across the width and attached to the tape loop at the apex will form two pole pockets. Each pole (about 68-70cm long) is inserted separately with a rounded tip going into the grosgrain tube at the apex. The bottom of each pole goes into an eyelet with a strap and buckle to tension the fabric edge - alternatively this could possibly be a loop of shock cord. A length of cord/tape joins the two bottom corners to create a triangle.

Mocking up a pole from Easton cf sections gives a weight of about 27g per pole. Other cf options could get this down to about 20g. This mod will add about 90-140g to the tent but conceptually creates a three pole tunnel. 30-40 grams or so are saved by removing the old poles (11g each), various bits of extraneous webbing and rejigging the quite heavy shock cord loops. After all this the tent should weigh in at under 1100g.

[Moondog55]

"I don't understand why they don't simply bring the rear all the way to the ground with 3 small panels of fabric in a simple bell end
How much would such a small amount of material and an extra peg or two weigh?"

Not unusual in the British forums to have one of those tents described as "portable sauna".
Condensation increases with reduced air flow.
At low temps high humidity/condensation feels colder than a lower dry temp.

Yes coming at this from a totally different angle I will trade comfort for strength anyday