Poor customer service at Campsaver

[blackbutt]

I bought a tent from Campsaver. It arrived with faulty stitching. See photos.

https://goo.gl/photos/8FgZuUSPZquBkjgk9

1.They will not pay the cost of return shipping on the faulty product.
2. They will not replace until they receive the returned item. From Australia that means they hang onto your $500+ and you have no tent for several weeks.

Its a big agnes copper spur ul3.

Not good enough.

[wildwanderer]

- A merchant refusing to pay for return shipping when the product arrives faulty is poor behaviour IMO. Especially considering the cost to ship it back to them from Australia.
- Not replacing or refunding until the item is returned is fairly standard and expected. Most companies suggest you pay for a new tent which will be shipped immediately. This of course leaves you down the price of two tents until they receive the faulty tent and process your return refund.

Its one of the perils of shopping with overseas merchants. When something goes wrong its often expensive and time consuming to get the issue sorted. Still.. when your often paying significantly less than the cost of purchasing the same item in Australia.. its a risk Ive often taken. (Ive had one or two issues similar to what you describe.. was fixed after some dialogue with the retailer).

I think most retailers understand that the lost business as a result of an unhappy customer with a legitimate gripe venting on social media is not worth it. Especially when the problem could be solved (in this instance) by paying $40 for shipping and or offering a discount on the replacement. Its a shame campsaver appear not to be one of those merchants.

Edit. -removed my will not buy from campsaver statement as now appears they do advise their international shipping and warranty policy on their website. I still think campsaver should pay for return shipping when a item arrives damaged.

[simonm]

It is the risk of purchasing from overseas. It may be easier just to fix that yourself or pay someone to do it.

[ofuros]

Yes it leaves a bitter taste in your mouth, it's inconvenient & it eats into the savings
you made from buying overseas...some you win some you loose.
Just send it back @ your cost or get it fixed locally or diy.
Maybe email Big Agnes themselves...give 'em the heads up about the workmanship on your tent.

Hate to say it, but it's all in their shipping info....buyer beware.

International Returns
At this time our system is not set up to accept international returns.
Please email us at cs@campsaver.com or call us at 1-435-213-1125 to request your return.

International Warranty and Repairs

We will allow you to return any product you are not satisfied with within 60 days. 
We do not refund international shipping charges and you are responsible for the shipping charge back to us,
so make sure you know what style/color you want. It can get very expensive shipping products back!
We also cannot warranty items that need to be repaired or have defects, this is your risk when purchasing from outside the U.S.

[wayno]

did you buy it on special? doesnt surprise me given campsaver can be so cheap to buy from, to be able to achieve those cheap prices they setup terms to minimise cost to them.
i've bought a LOT of stuff from campsaver and backcountry, i only buy top quality brands that minimises the chance of getting substandard gear, none of the gear i've bought has had any issues.
if you saved money buying it online, you might still be up on the deal if you just get the tent repaired locally.
i've saved sometimes hundreds of dollars on a single item from buying online, and the savings have added up, even if i did get some defective gear it still would have been worth the risk. prices down under are so expensive.
tents are one item i buy locally, because they can be so expensive anyway and i dont want to muck around with warranty or repair issues with a tent and i want a locally designed tent because a lot of american tents for instance don't cut it where I live in NZ...

[johnw]

Given the situation I would definitely contact the manufacturer. It certainly won't hurt and hopefully they would want to know about those quality issues.
My son has had a Big Agnes Copper Spur UL1 for several years. Seems to be high quality and had no problems that I know of.

[GPSGuided]

Pretty common for online retailers to refuse to cover return postage and need to verify the problem, even for local retailers. So not a surprise on Campsaver. As others have pointed out, it's a risk one takes for buying overseas and the discounted pricing.

[Neo]

Great customer service at outdoorfair.de

[neilmny]

It is the risk of purchasing from overseas. It may be easier just to fix that yourself or pay someone to do it.

Might be the quickest and cheapest option.

[nezumi]

Inform them that, as you are a customer in Australia, your purchase is covered under Australian Consumer Law, and under that provision, the seller must meet the cost of postage for faulty goods. https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/consu ... ace-refund

I'd offer them a middle ground - you pay the return shipping, but if they agree that it's faulty, they have to cover the shipping costs on the return, as well as the replacement.

[wayno]

Inform them that, as you are a customer in Australia, your purchase is covered under Australian Consumer Law, and under that provision, the seller must meet the cost of postage for faulty goods. https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/consu ... ace-refund

I'd offer them a middle ground - you pay the return shipping, but if they agree that it's faulty, they have to cover the shipping costs on the return, as well as the replacement.

bought from an online american shop, that doesnt come under Aussie law

[GPSGuided]

Inform them that, as you are a customer in Australia, your purchase is covered under Australian Consumer Law, and under that provision, the seller must meet the cost of postage for faulty goods. https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/consu ... ace-refund

Seriously? They are not even within the jurisdiction!

It's this type of sense of entitlement and hassle that closes off O/S online stores to international sales, killing options for the rest of us. Want cheaper deals by buying O/Ss? Then just expect and accept the downside.

[slparker]

I have to say that the stitching issue in the photos doesn't look catastrophic.If I was Capmpsaver I'd advise the customer to go to a seamstress and get the dodgy sewing fixed and give the customer free postage on their next purchase, or 30 bucks off or something.

The point is, I suppose, that as a clearing house for bulk goods at discount prices their margins are small and postage costs are not insignificant as a proportion of the purchase. In saying that I managed to return a pair of used shoes to Amazon in the US at their expense, so it is always caveat emptor.

I had a worse tent issue with a tarptent. Henry Shires ended up sending me some repair bits and I had it done locally.
It is true, I think, that Tarptent would have paid for return postage had I wished to. The service from cottage manufacturers is always going to better, I suppose, because reputation is more important to their business, and probably their pride.

I did end up, myself, getting a Big Agnes UL 3 from campsaver at a considerable discount a bit later and it's been fine. If I had an issue with Campsaver I'd be as annoyed as the OP but not surprised. I was surprised at amazon, no wonder they are eating the competition with service like theirs.

[nezumi]

bought from an online american shop, that doesnt come under Aussie law

Seriously? They are not even within the jurisdiction!

It's this type of sense of entitlement and hassle that closes off O/S online stores to international sales, killing options for the rest of us. Want cheaper deals by buying O/Ss? Then just expect and accept the downside.

You both might want to inform the legal community of your expert opinions:

http://www.monash.edu/law/news-and-even ... -purchases

https://www.choice.com.au/electronics-a ... onal-sites

Australia's consumer protection laws provide recourse for online shoppers irrespective of whether the seller is based in Australia or overseas, [It's just that] the enforcement of these laws may be more difficult to pursue when the seller is located overseas.

I would contend that the purchaser shouldn't have to pay *more* to have a problem rectified if it's not their fault. If it was a return due to change of mind, sure I'll pay postage (and be grateful that the store accepts a return when they aren't required to). If the item is clothing which isn't the right size, that's a bit tougher - if you followed the sizing charts provided and they item doesn't match them, you might have a reason for return. If you just messed up when you ordered, or assumed that you were skinnier than you are, then wear the cost.

[RonK]

Good luck spouting Australian law to overseas merchants.

Unfortunately Campsaver holds all the cards. Your only recourse may be a chargeback if your credit card provider agrees.

I've made it standard practice to read the shipping and returns policy before placing orders on any site.

[wayno]

its wishful thinking that aussie lawmakers think overseas based companies will follow aussie law, they arent bound at all to aussie law... caviat emptor. buyer beware

[roysta]

If the choice is available, you should pay for these items via PayPal. You have quite some time to dispute and PayPal will get involved.


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[nezumi]

Good luck spouting Australian law to overseas merchants.

Unfortunately Campsaver holds all the cards. Your only recourse may be a chargeback if your credit card provider agrees.

I've made it standard practice to read the shipping and returns policy before placing orders on any site.

its wishful thinking that aussie lawmakers think overseas based companies will follow aussie law, they arent bound at all to aussie law... caviat emptor. buyer beware

If it firms your position for negotiation, then it is a Good Thing.

There is precedent for an overseas merchant being held to account under Australian Consumer Law:

https://www.accc.gov.au/media-release/v ... tee-rights

http://hallandwilcox.com.au/foreign-ent ... eating-up/

https://www.herbertsmithfreehills.com/l ... s-offshore

Those citations all relate to the case of a software provider, Valve, based in the US. Since Campsaver actively markets to Australians, through ads on Australian based sites and campaigns such as free shipping to Aus on orders over $400, they could be taken as meeting the standards under the law. While the potential for any legal remedy is minimal, the application of the law isn't in question.

[wayno]

its a small amount of stitching that can be fixed for a few dollars, I would just hand stitch it myself if its all thats in the pictures..

[GPSGuided]

its a small amount of stitching that can be fixed for a few dollars, I would just hand stitch it myself if its all thats in the pictures..

+ a million!

[blackbutt]

Hi OP again. Thanks for all the replies. This is a clear issue with a faulty product - my hope is to raise awareness of how Campsaver will and wont help customers. Their rules are arbitrary not ethical and presumably based on a cost benefit analysis of how many customers they retain/lose based on the minimum possible backup.

Their shiny reasurring website is a charade in my view.

The US consumer website tells those unhappy with customer service to raise the issue via social media and here I am.

If they want to expand their market and take money from foreign customers they should provide backup that any reasonable person would consider reasonable.

[blackbutt]

If the choice is available, you should pay for these items via PayPal. You have quite some time to dispute and PayPal will get involved.

OP here. Thats such a good idea. I will think hard about doing on the next purchase. Size counts. They wont listen to little me. But if they sent me 2 left shoes on my next purchase Paypal would refund ocer the top of theur rules.


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[Franco]

"While the potential for any legal remedy is minimal, the application of the law isn't in question."
Yes , so what you are suggesting is that the OP spends his money chasing a legal option that is not likely to succeed ?
Somehow I don't think that is good advice.
From one of your links :
However, in a practical sense, even if Australian courts have jurisdiction, actually asserting jurisdiction in any real and practical sense is likely to be difficult, complex and expensive unless the seller is prepared to submit itself to Australian jurisdiction – which in most cases is unlikely (11

From my point of view, litigation over trivial matters ends up costing a lot of time , stress and a substantial transfer of money to some lawyer for little or no result.

[GPSGuided]

Seriously OP, the little bit of poor stitching can be solved easily locally at low cost. If you picked the product for purchase, presume you actually liked the design and will keep it if possible. That bit of re-sew would not affect the function or durability. Returning the whole item is cost in-effective and bad for the environment. The root source of problem is with the manufacturer, contact them and see what can be done. You got your bargain and there are far bigger worldly problems out there than a bit of poor stitching. Maybe never buy Big Agnes products again...

[nezumi]

"While the potential for any legal remedy is minimal, the application of the law isn't in question."
Yes , so what you are suggesting is that the OP spends his money chasing a legal option that is not likely to succeed ?
Somehow I don't think that is good advice.
From one of your links :
However, in a practical sense, even if Australian courts have jurisdiction, actually asserting jurisdiction in any real and practical sense is likely to be difficult, complex and expensive unless the seller is prepared to submit itself to Australian jurisdiction – which in most cases is unlikely (11

From my point of view, litigation over trivial matters ends up costing a lot of time , stress and a substantial transfer of money to some lawyer for little or no result.

I never suggested litigation? What I said was to alert Campsaver to the fact that the transaction is covered under Australian COnsumer Law, and under that law the cost of return postage for a faulty product should be borne by the supplier.

[jimmeyer176]

Forget the retailer, Big Agnes will replace it for free, deal with the manufacturer

[Bill P]

I had a good experience with a faulty jetboil stove i bought from Campsaver. The referred me to the US distributor, who then referred me to the AU distributor. The AU distributor called me up and offered me a part which resolved my issue. They sent me the part straight away and didnt want the faulty one returned.

The stove was several years old. The failure was beyond my ability to repair it.

This tent could be fixed in less time than it takes to read this thread.

[Nerdtrails]

I had a good experience with a faulty jetboil stove i bought from Campsaver. The referred me to the US distributor, who then referred me to the AU distributor. The AU distributor called me up and offered me a part which resolved my issue. They sent me the part straight away and didnt want the faulty one returned.

Was that through Sea to Summit distribution?
If so I have had great and friendly support for several brands they deal with.

[GPSGuided]

You both might want to inform the legal community of your expert opinions:

http://www.monash.edu/law/news-and-even ... -purchases
https://www.choice.com.au/electronics-a ... onal-sites

Note the numerous qualifications in that single opinions eg. 'What if we argue...' And I trust we all know how tangential legal arguments can stretch, often meaningless in practice.

The final paragraph stated 'Even if a consumer manages to obtain an order against the overseas seller in an Australian court, she would be confronted with the costs of enforcing the order in the foreign jurisdiction if the seller does not voluntarily comply with the order.' - What else can this mean but out of jurisdiction.

Fact is, almost similar to the current parliamentarian citizenship farce, one country can unilateral create any law they care to, but when there's no supportive bilateral cross-border legal framework, it's meaningless and without jurisdiction in practical sense.

[GPSGuided]

There is precedent for an overseas merchant being held to account under Australian Consumer Law:

https://www.accc.gov.au/media-release/v ... tee-rights
http://hallandwilcox.com.au/foreign-ent ... eating-up/
https://www.herbertsmithfreehills.com/l ... s-offshore

Those citations all relate to the case of a software provider, Valve, based in the US. Since Campsaver actively markets to Australians, through ads on Australian based sites and campaigns such as free shipping to Aus on orders over $400, they could be taken as meeting the standards under the law. While the potential for any legal remedy is minimal, the application of the law isn't in question.

Fact is, Campsaver haven't breached anything but to have established that the buyer needs to return the good (at buyer's cost) for assessment/refund/repair, a set of T&C that's also common with Australian online vendors, one the buyer accepted when purchase contract established. Try to submit this case to the Supreme Court and see...