Canadian / Alaskan winter? Do I really need

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Canadian / Alaskan winter? Do I really need

Postby Moondog55 » Mon 13 Nov, 2017 8:36 pm

A -40C sleeping system?
The big two question is starting to drive me a little crazy and I'm weird enough as it is.
and when I say -40C/F I do mean comfortable not shivering and surviving.
I've committed to new down pullover and I am halfway though getting it paid for. As a newbie to deep winters i have decided that I would probably do an introductory guided trip because there is a lot to learn about traveling on ice and frozen over water
The guides equipment list indicates a -20C sleeping bag for the trips and I can do that easily with what I have, I don't really consider -20C COLD anymore.
BUT
My mate in the USA insists that isn't enough safety margin for cold camping
My mate is of course a heavy weight canvas camper and it it gets too cold for comfort he wakes up , lights the fire in the stove and makes cocoa.
He is saving for a new sleeping bag rated at that -40C tho
Apologies for asking the question again but it is important in that if I don't buy a new sleeping bag I can buy a better tent for the trip.
Clothing wise I am over equipped and the only reason for a new downie is for sleeping in and for saving weight on the pulk.
Also it looks like the down gear I have for sale is far too specialised for OZ and won't sell at a price I feel comfortable at
Ve are too soon old und too late schmart
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Re: Canadian / Alaskan winter? Do I really need

Postby ChrisJHC » Tue 14 Nov, 2017 7:48 am

Of course the issue with sleeping in a down pullover is that the bottom side loses all its loft and most of its insulation.
You might find that a thermal sleeping bag inner is a better approach - that way you can use your current -20C bag.
Sea to Summit claims theirs adds up to 15C for around $60-$70.
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Re: Canadian / Alaskan winter? Do I really need

Postby Moondog55 » Tue 14 Nov, 2017 8:57 am

Current bag is a -4C bag without the down inside it tho, -20C is the system rating perhaps -25C with the synthetic quilt over it, perhaps lower because I've never had a chance to test it, it simply not being cold enough here
Also I have never believed the hype about those liners, maybe 5C for the most expensive heaviest liner and that is heavier and dearer than a Uniqlo down parka
As I have said a couple of times it's that last ten or twenty degrees that worries me as I no longer consider -20C really cold if fit and well and not exhausted
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Re: Canadian / Alaskan winter? Do I really need

Postby Gadgetgeek » Tue 14 Nov, 2017 9:18 am

This is a hard one. With a hot tent, a -20C setup should be fine. That said, it should be a really comfortable -20, in my opinion, complexity is where the downfall is, since more things to go wrong. Its also possible that the guides are planning one you layering up past that -20 bag to get more out of it, but in general most guys go heavy on the bag, light on the clothes in those conditions. Hard to say. If its cold tenting, then I'm wondering why they list a -20, as that would seem to me to be well short of useful, and many -40 bags are massive, and expensive, so maybe they are just not viewing it as viable?
At those temps, moisture management will become a factor as frost builds up in the insulation. I agree with you Moondog on the StS liners, they add a little bit, but I think way over-state their effectiveness long term. Once you get to temps that cold, stuff like wind-chill start to matter more and more, so it changes the math on how effective a sleeping system will be.
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Re: Canadian / Alaskan winter? Do I really need

Postby Moondog55 » Tue 14 Nov, 2017 10:18 am

Problem may be helped here
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=26748
I know from past experience that a semi VB works and a contact in the USA advised me to use one of these as a liner, because of the reflective barrier his extreme cold weather experience [ Montana High Country] said they were a huge improvement over the S2S liners as well as being windproof
If it doesn't work I needed one for my winter daypack anyway, the downside is that they do weigh a heck of a lot
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Re: Canadian / Alaskan winter? Do I really need

Postby Neo » Tue 14 Nov, 2017 7:57 pm

Ship man that'll be a shock to the system! Maybe book in to some lodges or at least log cabins :) awesome trip plan BTW
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Re: Canadian / Alaskan winter? Do I really need

Postby Moondog55 » Wed 15 Nov, 2017 7:04 am

It would be if I went from summer here to a deep winter but I think it will be a double winter for me on that trip if I manage to swing it.
Note to all here, I'm not worried about surviving, i'm worried about being uncomfortable and not getting enough old peoples sleep.
I'll be using the S2S comfort plus insulated air mattress over a combination of CCF pads too because I know bottom insulation is important
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Re: Canadian / Alaskan winter? Do I really need

Postby Moondog55 » Sat 18 Nov, 2017 9:10 am

I just found a chart the Richard Nisley posted over at BPL which shows in graphic form the downward trend in metabolic rate after birth, it correlates very well with the generalisation that you need 5C extra insulation for every decade of age after 35.
So I would have been OK with what I have 30 years ago but not now it seems, I should have ordered my overquilt with the thickest warmest APEX rather than the 100GSM OOOPs
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Re: Canadian / Alaskan winter? Do I really need

Postby wildwanderer » Sat 18 Nov, 2017 4:16 pm

How far north are you going Moondog? Once you get within a few hundred km of the arctic circle the weather can get much colder than -20. (currently forecast to get to -36C in some northern towns over the next few days.)

Assuming you’re going with an experienced guiding company I’d be fairly confident in going with their recommendation. Is the guiding company recommending a -20C bag and then layered clothing to take you up to a -40C system? If yes, then Id be listening to them.

Some of the weather up there can get incredibly cold. In Fairbanks Alaska in January the average low temperature is -27C. While on average there is also one night each January that hits -40C.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairbanks,_Alaska#Climate

Im heading into Northern Canada in a few weeks. I wont be camping out but il be doing some snow shoeing etc. I'l ask some of the guides up there what they think the setup should be for winter camping with safety margin.

Edit. Are you hot or cold tenting?
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Re: Canadian / Alaskan winter? Do I really need

Postby Moondog55 » Sat 18 Nov, 2017 4:40 pm

Plans are for one guided trip, that will take 12 days; a week or so hot tenting with a mate.
Then I want to do something a little harder and further North if I can.
Thanks I appreciate your asking on my behalf, Have fun while you are there.
I know I can survive -40 with what I've got but I don't think it would be comfortable and 3 or 4 nites like that can be debilitating.
If I have to buy a new sleeping bag I will, the same for a new duvet parka but if I could use what I have that leaves more money for other important things like travel, fuel and eating out more often.
While I don't need to spend the money this year I do need to plan things. Mistakes in gear could be much more than uncomfortable but also I need to go as light as practicable.
I'll get the use out of the UL synthetic quilt here during winter [ it is a tad lighter than my big Goretex bivvy after all ] but I think it was a mistake for this planned trip
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