Short down sleeping bag?

[Zzoe]

Hi All and thanks in advance for reading this.

This winter we're spending a month on the Bibbulmun Track with our two kids, who will then be 11 and just-turned-eight. They're great hikers who've had quite a bit of multi-day hiking experience here, in NZ and in Europe. They both carry all their own gear (but the youngest carries no food other than a bag of scroggin the pocket ).

We need a new sleeping bag for him, and he's pretty short for his age. Up until now he's used one of my husband's old down bags, but it's about 17 years old, and the down is very thin. He also sleeps very cold. When it's gotten too cold in the past he's rugged into my bag and we've been okay- we've also had him in lots of layers for bed. I'd rather avoid all those layers on this longer walk if possible; and yet he's now getting too big to comfortably fit in with me.

The temperatures can get down to around 2 degrees at night- last year we woke up to a dell full of white frost. So I'm curious about short bags, and have heard rumours about things such as half bags. I'm trying to save weight and space in his rucksack. In case it has any bearing on things we are usually in a ZPacks Triplex. My husband has a tarp he likes to be under outside, but (believe it or not) he fits in with us if there's rain about. With the four of us in there we manage to stay quite warm... but of course the rainy nights are also the warmer ones so that doesn't really solve our problem.

Any ideas or suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

[emma_melbourne]

Enlightened Equipment do a Junior Revelation quilt - in both synthetic fill which they call their Apex Junior https://enlightenedequipment.com/revela ... ex-junior/ or in a down version which is here: https://enlightenedequipment.com/revelation-junior/

I'd probably go for the 20F version (equivalent to -6 degrees C) as it's really lower limit rather than comfort limit.

Revelation Junior is 434 grams in a 20F / -6 degree version and $338.
Revelation Apex (synthetic) Junior is 688 grams in a 20F / -6 degree version and $249.

If you want it to last your 8 year old even longer, you could go with an adult quilt but in a short length which is also an option. (Their X-Short is designed for people up to 5 feet.)

The local Australian quilt makers on the forum may also be able to do a custom quilt in shorter length.

The idea behind quilts being they do away with the underneath which in anycase with down is compressed underneath a person and so offers no real insulation value anyway.

They do though require a well-insulated sleeping pad mat to be effective. Ideally a mat where the R value meets or exceeds the rating of the quilt.

There are also much cheaper kids bags which go down to low temperatures but are a lot heavier and bulkier. (Roman Junior kids 0 degrees https://www.wildearth.com.au/buy/roman- ... ue/rom1001, Black Wolf Star 500 Kids 1 degree comfort & -6 degree limit https://www.snowys.com.au/star-500-kids-sleeping-bag , Coleman Youth C3 which is -3 comfort https://www.snowys.com.au/youth-sleeping-bag ) which are all around $55 - $65 budget but heavy at 1.4 - 1.7 kg range.

So depends what your priority is - lightweight compressible down but expensive, or inexpensive but bulky and heavy.

A quick look at their Warehouse shows that Enlightened Equipment do have a couple of the Junior Apex 20 F in stock here:
https://enlightenedequipment.com/revela ... -charcoal/
and
https://enlightenedequipment.com/revela ... rple-camo/

That would mean instead of having to wait for weeks to 1 month + depending on their backlog, you could have one of those options shipped straight away.


Best,


Emma

[emma_melbourne]

PS The Enlightened Equipment quilts do also retain a pretty good resale value when your child outgrows it. Compared to any other "normal brand" kids sleeping bag which is typically worth very little after years of use.

I have a toddler and got her an Enlightened Equipment Protege quilt, knowing I can on-sell it when she outgrows it and get some money back on it.

[Moondog55]

When my kids were young I "loaned them" my mountaineering half bags. Personally I think a good half bag is the best solution for kids who may enjoy bushwalking all of their life but that is because they are the basis of my own sleep systems
PHD in England and Western Mountaineering both do good half bags but I think the PHD units are far too short for the Australian long legged body
http://www.westernmountaineering.com/sl ... /semilite/
I was going to get a Semilite for my own use but there was a sale of one from The Brooks Range that was half the price and almost as good
I used a WM Tamarack for a few years and while heavier it is a very versatile bag, I sold the Tamarack to a fellow member in Tassie to pay for the Brooks Range half bag
http://www.westernmountaineering.com/sl ... s/tamarak/
As an adult I can combine a half bag and a decent down parka with a LW synthetic quilt and I am good for almost all winter Alpine conditions here in Australia so there is that option as the tadpoles grow

[Rosscodj]

Undercling-Mike on these forums should be able to help you out, He's made two quilts for me, and they're both awesome. He's also made a half-bag style quilt, you can see half way down page three of this thread: http://bushwalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=24995

[Neo]

Hi I have seen kids down bags cheap on Gumtree so have a browse there. Or find a full size one and trim it off to suit his height. Or a custom one from Mike or Tiergear.

Another option is this synthetic half bag. I find it pretty good combined with a down jacket and then add thermals and layers as required. 1200 long, about 225g $150

viewtopic.php?f=63&t=26710&p=338826&hilit=Omm#p338826

[emma_melbourne]

Yep I second that. Going locally-made could be a great option.

If you're wanting "off the shelf", and lower budget than down, Campsaver also does ship to Australia and has this:

Big Agnes Little Red 15
https://www.campsaver.com/big-agnes-lit ... 66-BYLRR18
Weighs 879 g
Pack size 19 x 22 cm
Works with a mat sleeve, so presumably little insulation on bottom part to save weight and to use the mat's insulation.
US $59.71 on sale (and you may be able to also apply a discount code)


The Western Mountaineering Tamarak that @Moondog55 mentioned is here:
https://www.campsaver.com/western-mount ... -down.html
Which looks a great option, but it's in a 30 F which may not be warm enough...?
Weighs 538 grams
Pack size 15 x 25 cm
Price: US $270 (and you may be able to also apply a discount code)

[Dexter]

I wouldn't be surprised if One Planet would make up a short bag on request. They deal with outdoor ed and kids a fair bit. Might be worth asking anyway.

[Moondog55]

When my boy was "Just turned 8YO" he graduated to carrying all of his own PPE, as soon as he had learnt when and how and why each item was there. His pack was 28 litres and to be honest too physically small for him but he carried his own gear. Alpine conditions at Easter so quite cold. His load was limited to 25% of his body mass but that worked out to be more than enough for him to carry a fair share of his own snack food and water.
So my question is whether you need a down sleeping bag to keep the weight down or the bulk?
My experience with my own kids is that unless snow camping a LW synthetic kids bag supplemented with clothing is more than warm enough. My kids were snow camping from a bout 8YO but in that instant my Ex was a very petite person and her gear fitted our daughters from about 10YO on until about 16 YO

[Lizzy]

My kids have used down women’s bags- shorter & warmer than the regular bags. I got them Sierra Designs ones that have stretch in them (like some of the montbell ones) which remind me of a big caterpillar. They have always been cosy in them. I think they were -1degree cel his (30F) ones.

[Neo]

Another off the shelf option in the synthetic realm.
Roman Palm bags. Standard length so will last the boys a while too.
My Palm 1 is about 1kg at $100 and stuffs quite small. Look for a sale also. I use it atm inside my ute canopy with a door open.

[Moondog55]

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=26584

Add an UL synthetic quilt and you are set for almost any situation here in Oz

[Zzoe]

Hi All

So many thanks for all the great replies. The Enlightened Equipment looks fantastic! Quilts are a whole new world to me and I'd love to learn more about them. I know that both our kids usually travel around a lot in their sleep, but a good day's walk usually knocks them for six, so a quilt might just be manageable.

Moondog: thanks fo the link to the other bag. We have thought about just adding a thermal lining to the bag that he's been using, but it just feels like another *thing* that is going to need to be managed. Perhaps we should look more closely at that option though.

The reason a short bag seemed like a good idea was to save on bulk... And down to save on wieght. And he grows so slowly that I think he really will get a good four years at least out of it. We tend to walk every second or third weekend so I think it would pay off over time.

Thanks again for replies. Just on quilts... For those who have moved from sleeping bags to quilts, can I ask what the advantages are? Don't you get chinks and cracks of cold air?

[Moondog55]

Personally I think 8C is about as cool as I would want to go using just a quilt, others seem to be able to use them down a lot lower.
Zzoe the kids of mine used LW down bags from an early age, we used the old REI trick of a bungie cord to shorten them.
you push the footbox inside and use a loose bungie inside to hold the gathered material in place, sounds complicated but actually really easy and also they used half sacks when it wa really cold but that is because I had mountaineering half sacks already as part of my own winter kits [ as I do now ] but there are some very good kids bags from Kathmandu that offer warmth to 8C; are good value and can be boosted by judicious use of warm clothing
Personally I don't thing the Kathmandu kids bags can be beaten for value, something that cannot be said for the brand as a whole
https://www.kathmandu.com.au/camp-and-h ... ag-v5.html
https://www.kathmandu.com.au/camp-and-h ... ag-v2.html
Downside of these bags is that they do need to be treated with Nikwax or similar for winter/damp weather use
I admit they would be much better if they were made with UL fabrics but for general camping and bushwalking the weight penalty isn't great

[Zzoe]

Thanks Moondog.

I'm loving the tent we have; in every way... It makes it possible for me to do four day walks with the kids just on my own if my husband can't get time off (ie I'm carrying almost *all* the food and extra water)... But the downside is that it does build up a fair bit of condensation inside on cold nights. Last winter we did wonder about the light drizzle that happened on our sleeping bags each morning! So the waterproofness of things is a mild concern.

The thing is that he's had a really good Mountain Designs kid's synthetic sleeping bag, but he freezes. The only time he's slept decently has been in down. Given that we're going for the month I'm counting on good sleeping. We're also keen as mustard to try and do some Tasmanian walks off season before they become teenagers and potentially- probably- don't want to have a bar of us!

It really is just about trying to limit packed weight and volume, but perhaps we should just bite the bullet and get an adult one.

[Moondog55]

Perhaps a good down hoody for sleeping in?
https://www.macpac.com.au/clearance/kid ... rance.html
Is it a ground insulation problem? I slept cold and badly for years until I got my first Thermarest