Bag choice for Main Range in Oct

[Moza]

Hi All, gear question for you!

This October I'm hiking from Round Mountain trailhead to Thredbo, cutting up to the main range from White's river hut. This is a route I've previously hiked in January 2015.
With the 'cooler' conditions we'll be facing, and in light of the fact my current bag is a three season synthetic, I'm going to upgrade to a One Planet Winterlite before the trip.
The bag will be paired with a Klymit Static V/12mm 3/4 length closed cell mat combo I use. R values of 1.3& & 2 respectively. We'll be using 4 season 2/3 person tents or huts

What I'm unsure about is the model to go with, -12 or -16/-20. If you've got experience in that region during the cooler months, your suggested ISO 23537-1 (previously EN) rating would be appreciated! I'm a warm sleeping male in my 20s.
The -12 is obviously going to be more usable in less freezing conditions which does appeal, and I'm not above layering up.

[crollsurf]

Being a warmer sleeper, in October I'd be thinking a true -6C and layer up if you get hit by a blizzard. Anything lower will have limited use in Oz outside ski touring. The mat combo should be OK and paired with a 4 season tent will work well. Save some $$ and weight, spent the savings on some Merino under/mid layers.

[wildwanderer]

Alternatively upgrade your mat? R.1.3 static v plus a closed cell is not that great if your cold. I'm a cold sleeper though.

Be likely less weight than upgrading to the -16 sleeping bag. (That bag does seem overkill)

[north-north-west]

Even as a cold sleeper, I'd go the -12 (more versatile and probably warm enough even for me with a little layering) and beef up the mat.

[Moondog55]

Even as a cold sleeper, I'd go the -12 (more versatile and probably warm enough even for me with a little layering) and beef up the mat.

This is what I would do also, any excuse to buy a new duvet parka. Actually no. NO you need a warm sleeping bag and should buy one rated to -55C and i just happen to have one for sale

[Moza]

Thanks for the advice folks, it sounds like a -12 is the goer, and it'll give me some overhead for future expeditions elsewhere.

I'm aware my low R value mat is a weak point, but I think it'll suffice this trip, and I'd rather not accumulate more gear!

Idle thought, why aren't bags rated with R values? I get that there's also 'dead space' and airflow to consider, but conceiably those could be given numerical values too.

[Moondog55]

You could easily work out the R-value from free loft by using a standard Clo value at approximately 4 Clo per inch where 1Clo = 0.155 R

[stry]

Every discussion needs a contrarian

Keep in mind that the ratings which are being referred to are "limit of comfort ratings" and, IIRC, assume some layering.

The "Comfort" rating is very close to what I call my socks and jocks (and a light thermal top) rating.

I do not like the currently popular idea of planning to rely on layering. That leaves nothing in reserve for injury, unexpected weather, delays etc. etc.

Long before ratings came in to vogue, my assessment procedure was to lay out a fully lofted bag, check out the total loft, plump it a bit with my hands and have a punt as to how it would work for me. Also taking into account the more obvious things like dimensions, construction, etc. That's has been very effective for me for many years.

With a quality manufacturer such as OP, an idea of likely total loft can also be gained from the specs for weight and loft/fill power of the fill, but OP seem to no longer specify fill weights.

I would go the 16.

[Moondog55]

To take the discussion any further Re layering inside the bag we need to know how big the OP is, the Winterlite is a very big bag but with not much in the way of excess room inside and of course the EN rating assumes full coverage wearing winter base layers already. I did look at the Winterlite myself but that bag is too small for me as it is and no room at all for a larger person to layer up more than LW fleece over base layers. Mates of mine who are as big and bigger have bought the OP Cocoon and an expander wedge which does leave room to wear the down parka. So a lot of choices depend on relative size. As far as temperature rating goes I have long advocated -18C as a system temperature and that the mattress must be warmer than the sleeping bag.
Only took me my 30's & 40's to learn that lesson and R = 5 is a good insulation minimum for a cool weather mattress

[Zapruda]

I spend quite a bit of time year round in Jagungal and on the Main Range. -12 is overkill in October and generally in all but the worst winter conditions. I use a -15 Western Mountaineering bag on really cold ski tours but generally get by with a -7 in spring and autumn.

A -7 will be a lot more versatile in Australian conditions.

Although it isn’t a perfect representation of temps over the large area you plan to walk, this link should give you an idea of what to expect - http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/dwo/20181 ... 1810.shtml

Get a mat with better insulation. This will help on the snow.

Also, keep in mind that you might find it colder in the valleys and frost plains of Jagungal than on top of the Main Range. Cold air drainage is a pain up there...

And please avoid sleeping in the huts unless you really need to. They are for emergencies first, heritage second
and recreation last.

[crollsurf]

If you do stay in the huts, maybe think about making a donation or becoming a member of the KHA https://khuts.org/index.php/join-kha.

[Moza]

And please avoid sleeping in the huts unless you really need to. They are for emergencies first, heritage second
and recreation last.

Thanks for the advice all, I wasn't aware that recreational use advised against was but perhaps I should have - they're a remarkable piece of history and I'm quite happy to treat them accordingly.
I'll look further into KHA membership.

Re. size and build, I'm 183.5 and 70kg. I'll be using a liner and merino baselayers as a given. I've also got a merino midlayer and microdown jacket I think would fit in.

Since I've got bids to go to the -16 and conversely a -7... I'm going to split the difference

I'll also look into upgrading my mat (sigh).

[Moondog55]

Upgrading mat is a bulk issue not a weight and monetary one
A cheap CCF from K-Mart/Rays is about $14- and stacking mats is a recognised strategy
At 70kg you would have plenty of room in a -7C to layer up in a puffy if it got cold, down pants too for extra warmth

[Moza]

Upgrading mat is a bulk issue not a weight and monetary one
A cheap CCF from K-Mart/Rays is about $14- and stacking mats is a recognised strategy
At 70kg you would have plenty of room in a -7C to layer up in a puffy if it got cold, down pants too for extra warmth

I've already got a cheap CCF (as per my initial post) which I proposed to layer with.
Right now I think that'll stay the plan of attack since a combined R3.3 with a -12 bag and layering if necessary should equal or exceed an r5+ and -7 bag. My 75L pack has oodles of room and I'm yet to pull the trigger on a smaller/lighter pack. I've got to get myself out and using the gear I have before I upgrade, tempting though it is!
Layering and a -7 makes sense but since I plan to explore colder hikes further down the line I like the added capacity of the -12.

[Moondog55]

Doesn't work out well using less mat. I know from painful experience and lots of lost sleep. What I meant to say is to use doubled CCF pads. Using more/warmer mat is actually more efficient for most of us. I manage with a -4C bag plus bivvy most of the time [ note that due to my age this -4C bag is really a +5C bag] but my mat is at least R7 or better
Or possibly upgrade the CCF to a RidgeRest plus a very thin extra layer.
They don't make a short wide RidgeRest do I use a full size one plus a short cutoff under my hips plus a air filled for comfort, currently the big S2S Comfort plus.
They do make a short regular RidgeRest tho which a lot of people in colder places use under the major pressure area of chest and hips plus a thin layer of CCF. Plus a comfort mattress
I use off-cuts of flooring underlay cut to fit my mat. Good flooring underlay is 3 layer, PolyCro + foam + RFL and really seems to be the cheapest [ because often free] and lightest warmth boost
Your purchase naturally but a very warm [ or too warm] sleeping bag is a limited use item and might only be needed once or twice a year; or not at all in my case now I am not headed to Alaska

[Moza]

Thanks for the further explanation Moondog55, I'll pick up a second CCF mat and add that to my layers.

I do appreciate the benefits of a more versatile bag offering a wider range of comfortable temperatures and to that effect I'm considering a Bushlite -11 since it offers a full zip across the footbox which should improve the range of use. I already have an historic Paddy Pallin Kiandra (+5) as my summer bag, but being rather old it's no longer good in single digits. If this new bag can handle a range of +10 to -10, then that's perfect.
The Bushlite also happens to be 100g lighter - something that doesn't really make sense when its a less efficient bag profile!

[Moondog55]

The shell of the Winterlite is bigger and the fabric is heavier from memory with extra fabric for side block baffles down collar etc. The older Winterlites also had double layers in the foot? just in case you wore your mountaineering boots to bed, does the new one?

[Moza]

Not sure about the double layers these days, it's certainly not mentioned. Fabric on both is quoted as the same Pertex Endurance, it may just be the side block baffles and collar adding weight. I'm not sure I understand how the shell could be bigger?
For two bags with (virtually) the same rating, one would think the added features and design of the Winterlite would render it lighter, otherwise, why add them at all? Could the testing criteria be different for an 'alpine' bag?
All in all the Bushlite appears a more versatile bag but I am torn between the two.

[stry]

The shell of the Winterlite is bigger and the fabric is heavier from memory with extra fabric for side block baffles down collar etc. The older Winterlites also had double layers in the foot? just in case you wore your mountaineering boots to bed, does the new one?

I think you are demonstrating the evolution of a the Winterlite MD - and perhaps also demonstrating your birthday tally.

My Winterlite is labelled OP, but was made in Queanbeyan, probably around 20 years ago. It is neither large, nor does it have it have doubled fabric at the foot, so probably a a later model than that to which you refer. The shell fabric is the same as that of my Dandelion, which was a stable mate of the W/L at the time. The current model(s) are specced at 160 shoulder girth, whereas mine is 150.

Although bigger internally than my W/L, the current equivalent appears to be lighter, due to the shape around the shoulders, a much lighter zip, and probably to the newer shell fabric.

I was completely unaware of the early design features that you explained, so I have learned something for the day. In the past, I did have a friend who was in the habit of sleeping in a down bag with his boots on, which I could never quite accept.

All technicalities aside, my old one is still a very good bag and the current equivalent will be better. Note the word "equivalent" - it can be a bit challenging with the current options to compare apples with apples.

As the OP already has a lighter bag, I would suggest that he gets the Winterlite of his choice, and forget about the Bushlite.

[Moza]

As the OP already has a lighter bag, I would suggest that he gets the Winterlite of his choice, and forget about the Bushlite.

Interestingly my much loved Kiandra weighs in at 1250g - lighter than my current 'winter' bag (1.6kg for a '-5' synthetic) but still heavier than the Winterlite -12 (1169g) and the Bushlite -11 (1065g)

J & H made bags for many years but transitioned to the One Planet name in '93 before the merger in '97 that created the OP we now know. http://www.outdoorinov8.com/oneplanethistory.html

As for boots in a sleeping bag... I shudder at the thought. My gear is respected, not mauled!

[Lamont]

Hey Moza, if you are unsure and as it's a big outlay, I have had great success ringing the factory (in the past) in Sunshine- not the city shop. The person in the city is often just a salesperson. Julian was the man to speak to but keep prodding if you get someone else until you get your answer.

[Moondog55]

Moza my J&H Ultra Flouro dates from early 80's. 1100 grams give or take, still going well but in need of a tune up soon
As for boots in the bag? Climbers do it all the time from necessity, but you do need to take the crampons off

[north-north-west]

*massive nostalgic sigh for J&H*

I should have taken better care of that bag.

[Moondog55]

*massive nostalgic sigh for J&H*

I should have taken better care of that bag.

Sometimes simpler is better
I think I'll phone OP tomorrow and see if I can get them to add a bit more than the usual 100 grams to this one, even if it is only 800FP these days

[Moza]

I think I'll phone OP tomorrow and see if I can get them to add a bit more than the usual 100 grams to this one, even if it is only 800FP these days

I know UnderclingMike offers 950fp in his quilts, perhaps he'd be able to help? Seems a shame to use a lower fill power than what's in there!