Bushwalking cup design sought

[blindmessiah]

Hello hikers,

I am currently designing a coffee cup (dual walled vacuum sealed titanium) with a fully leak-proof and locking lid. It is going to be targeted at people who live in cities (that love coffee) that have an on the go lifestyle/go hiking frequently. The vessel is going to travel with them on all of their journeys.

I am hoping that you will share your genuine preferences and ideas about how we can make the best product for such a person. We are currently seeking guidance on the size of the mug; standard coffee cups are around the 8-12 oz (237-354 ml) mark. However, from what I understand, hiking mugs tend to sit on the larger side 12-16 oz (354-473 ml). This larger size won’t appeal to the urban coffee traveller and I was wondering if a 12 oz lightweight leak proof vessel would be the sweet spot Is this a size that from a hiker’s perspective would still be useful?

Any general thoughts also appreciated.
Vic.

[Dalmeny Mark]

I personally have a Snowpeak 450 ml DW Ti mug with lid. This size is fine for leisurely tea, or porridge, but a bit small for noodles etc, but very good heat retention. Larger size adds to multipurpose.
350ml DW Ti and leakproof would be fine for a dedicated trek coffee cup as your design brief would indicate, but would miss out for bush hipster vibe.Also many like single wall and large for the lightness and ability to use on stove as mini billy.

[Mark F]

I expect the size of mug many bushwalkers use is around 400ml as it allows a bit of slosh room or a larger serve. I suspect most of us don't carry our mugs for any distance filled with hot coffee and what are these strange ounce units? Imperial or US? Weight or volume? We moved to the metric system in 1974 so I think you are absorbing a bit too much US cultural imperialism.

[Zapruda]

I imagine everyone who helps gets a free mug?

[Watertank]

I’m assume that Vic might be located in the USA given the inclusion of oz as the first measurement provided, or at least intending to sell to that market.

[Lamont]

Do Americans really walk with coffee cups filled with coffee? Do any Ozzies? Nothing better than stopping for a cuppa. Get that 45 gm cup Zapruda?

[Warin]

Do Americans really walk with coffee cups filled with coffee? Do any Ozzies?

They might pick up a cup and take it to work...so a sealed lid might be good.

If your after the urban coffee/tea drinker then this may not be the place for that.

Bush walkers like a sealed lid as they can then us it for waterproof storage. And they probably want a larger cup, I think it would be called a mug by most. At home I use a double walled stainless steel mug ~400ml. But weigh wise for walking a plastic mug with insulation is better.

[Gadgetgeek]

A bigger overall factor for daily use coffee mugs is not so much the overall volume, but the mouth opening of the lid (many that seal well do so at the cost of a very small spout so you dribble coffee into your mouth) and the over all size of the top of the cup, which impacts cleaning.

A daily- on the go coffee mug like the zojirushi is fantastic because I can make a coffee for later. In the case of a day-hiker it might mean having hot water for tea or a warm lunch, instead of taking a stove. The risk of trying to be all things to all people is that you invariable make a product that works for none. So if it doesn't fit a cup holder in a car, its useless for a commuter, but if the mouth is too small to effectively clean, or make coffee directly into (cannot make coffee with my aeropress into my Zoji for example) then it doesn't work for the second day of the hike.

Depending on my activity, I'll nurse my 600ml zoji full of tea for the better part of a day. But its really only effective to make tea in due to the mouth shape.

That doesn't even begin to get into soups which I think is a bigger concern for most walkers, if they were going to multi-purpose a cup.

Vic, give us a better idea of where in the market you are planning on focusing, what your competing products will be (or close as you can) and we'll let you know which compromises we see. Not to be negative, but to let you decide if its something you think is important or not.

[blindmessiah]

Thanks everyone for your feedback so far, some really useful insights.

Haha, to those of you concerned with the American standards used; we are based in Melbourne and are using the Oz system of measurement because that is what the international market adheres to and is also the way that coffee cups are sized. https://au.keepcup.com/size-guide

In terms of key competitors, see the following:
www.puristcollective.com/products/maker-10oz
www.hydroflask.com/12-oz-wide-mouth/col ... ,a,92,o,20
www.miir.com/products/travel-tumbler

We will use materials and design to minimize weight/size and keep the product simple and leakproof. We are wanting to create a product that is valuable to both markets. Do you think that a 350ml lightweight waterproof vessel would be useful while hiking if it had a wide mouth opening and great leak proofing?

One other aspect that we are considering is the insulation of the cup. Is there value in having the cup's exterior wall radiate heat slightly so that you get some heat on your hands to warm them (this would result in a compromise of the length it could keep liquid hot/cold) or do we think that it would be better to fully insulate the cup so that it stays hot/cold longer but does not warm your hands?

[Moondog55]

I drink coffee by the litre but I would possible be interested in a dual purpose bowl of French breakfast size; but here larger is better up to 650ml, as wide as it is deep.
Keeping the hot food at an appetising temperature can be a problem in winter and Gadgetgeeks comments about soup are pertinent there. The best I have ever seen was labled for Breckenridge ski and was a full 2 US pints in size, Perfect for ski lift martinis or Gluwein
EDIT
I don't normally drink Espresso so I have no need to be able to fit under a machine head but I would be interested in a French Press option

[Warin]

Haha, to those of you concerned with the American standards used; we are based in Melbourne and are using the Oz system of measurement because that is what the international market adheres to and is also the way that coffee cups are sized. https://au.keepcup.com/size-guide

An Australian Standard Cup is 250 ml.
Imperial units have been withdrawn from legal use for quite some time.
Note Canada and South Africa us the same size of cup as Australia.

1 US cup = 240 ml =~ 0.95 Australian cups...

[Moondog55]

Who the heck ever orders a standard cup of coffee?
A Muffin Break cup holds 375ml, Maccas about 180ml and Espresso shots are about 65 to 80ml but they are all "cups" of coffee.
The Standard cup is only important when writing recipes for measuring purposes. The standard size has very little meaning apart from that so long as we know the actual capacity of the vessel we are using

[Gadgetgeek]

To answer the questions, 350ml is small for me, but I drink espresso or tea, so tiny or huge.
Insulation value over warm hands, when walking I am not using the cup as a handwarmer, I'd rather have hot tea 6 hours after brewing it. I'd say that most are going to be looking at an insulated cup for walking as having to also be large enough to cook/rehydrate a meal in, or its not worth the weight. I carry a really lightweight cup for my coffee, and cook on my stove, so no dual-walls for me generally. Daily use is the big mug of tea, and depending on conditions, I could see taking an insulated travel mug, but probably only on a day circuit, not likely on multi-day, since water boiled is fuel burned, its not as though I get a weight savings from the insulation.
If you could get weight down, and be at least competitive on the insulation, then there might be something there, but the market is really saturated right now, so not sure what you have to make your product stand out. To be honest though, very few have a real standout feature for me.

[Warin]

Who the heck ever orders a standard cup of coffee?

Unlike beer that is well regulated, most other beverages come in what ever size the establishment wants.

In some places you can order a mug. A mug appears to be ~ 350 ml..

[Mark F]

An Australian Standard Cup is 250 ml.
Imperial units have been withdrawn from legal use for quite some time.
Note Canada and South Africa us the same size of cup as Australia.

1 US cup = 240 ml =~ 0.95 Australian cups...

... and US measures which are what bm is quoting have never been a legal measure in Australia.

Do you think that a 350ml lightweight waterproof vessel would be useful while hiking if it had a wide mouth opening and great leak proofing?

As for lightweight it needs to be under 60 grams to even hope to qualify. My 400ml Ti mug is 50g + 6g for a cf lid. I doubt your lightweight equates with many bushwalkers understanding of the term.

Personally, I have never looked for, or even thought about, the product you are describing.

[ChrisJHC]

Umm, do you mean something like this one made by Thermos?
16oz / 0.47L

Keeps the coffee hot for many hours and is totally leakproof.

I bought this when working in an operations room that had a “no spillable liquids” policy. Have never taken it bushwalking.

The outside doesn’t get warm enough to be a hand warmer.