Inside the Race to Get Forever Chemicals Out of Raincoats

[wayno]

Inside the Race to Get Forever Chemicals Out of Raincoats

Patagonia, Inc. has spent nearly a decade rejiggering its supply chain, redesigning products and dumping millions of dollars into a high-stakes trial-and-error process that’s nearly complete.

This isn’t about optimizing for fashion. Patagonia, like practically every other outdoor apparel company, has long relied on per- or polyfluorinated chemicals — PFAS for short — to make its products water-resistant. The problem is that these chemicals, also known as fluorochemicals, PFC chemicals or forever chemicals, are toxic. They’ve been linked to cancer and other health problems and they don’t degrade easily: PFAS have been found in drinking water and in the human bloodstream. Despite years of warnings from scientists and environmental activists, many apparel retailers only recently started sussing out how to ditch PFAS in outdoor apparel and gear. But the stragglers may not be able to straggle much longer: Bans on the chemicals are coming.

https://time.com/6252365/pfas-raincoats/

Why Buying a Lightweight Rain Jacket is More Confusing Than Ever
Changing environmental standards have upended the industry

If you’ve felt lately that the world of lightweight rain gear has gotten more confusing than ever, you’re not alone. There have been a lot of shakeups in the industry lately, including stricter environmental standards, supply-chain woes, and substandard performance. One brand manager told me point-blank that rain jackets have become less durable and breathable over the past decade. With increased scrutiny of the chemicals used in high-tech fabrics, it can feel like you need a chemical engineering degree to understand modern raingear and make an informed purchase. We dug into the subject, talking with designers from brands big and small, to get a handle on the state of ultralight raingear.

https://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-g ... than-ever/

[ribuck]

That second link provides a really good overview, although I almost stopped reading when they said "...especially in non-essential goods like hiking gear"

They briefly mentioned pit zips. My current raincoat is non-breathable fabric with pit zips, and overall it breathes better than almost any other raingear I've had. The sole exception was a 1985 GoreTex jacket from Paddy Palin that weighed over 800g.

[rcaffin]

rain jackets have become less durable and breathable over the past decade.
Which sounds like complete nonsense to me.
Raingear is (imho) meant to be waterproof. End of story. Granted, a windshirt is different.
Anyhow, the terms 'waterproof' and 'breathable' are recognised as being pretty much mutually exclusive. Yes, I know Gore claim that their membrane fabrics are 'breathable', but their idea of breathable and my idea are very, very different. In cold weather, when you need to rely on your jacket, even Goretex gets condensation inside it.
</rant>

Cheers
Roger

[wayno]

and "breathability" water vapour permeability is often dependant on DWR when its raining. without it, the outside of the fabric wets out, preventing all water vapour from moving out through the fabric

[Neo]

Perhaps it is a holy grail. Either 100% waterproof and adjust your layers/activity, or accept a level of dampness...

[wayno]

When is a Hiking Rain Jacket like a Wet Suit?

https://sectionhiker.com/hiking-rain-ja ... -wet-suit/

[Aardvark]

I know Gore claim that their membrane fabrics are 'breathable', but their idea of breathable and my idea are very, very different. In cold weather, when you need to rely on your jacket, even Goretex gets condensation inside it.
</rant>

Cheers
Roger

I apologise for saying so but this demonstrates a lack of understanding of how Gore-tex works.
Admittedly, breathability is interpreted by most people in different ways. It's a good thing BUT it's not as effective as people would like to imagine it is and therefore not a necessity for everyone.
It's as if most people expect there has been some incredible leap in the performance of rainwear once the term 'breathability' came into play.
The whole technology started with the need to help those going to extremes such as astronauts and polar explorers. That's where the need for it becomes more essential to survival. That's where the factors determining its effectiveness exist.
Gore-tex depends on temperature differential to be effective. That warning at least used to be printed on a label inside the jacket. The difference between 37 and 2 degrees is greater than the difference between 37 and 20 degrees. It's that temperature differential that determines how much water vapour can transpire through the membrane. All the other factors such as DWR treatments and two layer, three layer also have a bearing on this.
Nothing you put on is going to magically stop you perspiring. You can however create a situation where you can maintain a temperature differential to bring about breathing. Most of the time people aren't in an extreme enough environment and aren't patient enough to complete the process and see a significant result.

I think like most people you expect more than you're really going to get and you should research a little more before expressing your criticism.

[wayno]

gore tex marketed themselves on the slogan "Guaranteed to keep you dry" they give statistics of how much moisture can move through the fabric. but neglect to say that's only under ideal conditions which will seldom if ever happen for most people... so its not marketed honestly
some tests i read, showed how thick the face fabric was had a lot to do with breathability... thicker threads. less threads, less gaps between the threads for the moisture to move through and the fabric is likely to keep you warmer when its heavier so more sweat...

[Aardvark]

Well that raises a good point. Honesty in marketing. Who can clearly define that these days. I guess there is dishonesty and then a whole range of degrees of honesty.
Guaranteed to keep you dry. That's a whole lot more likely when just standing still in the rain as opposed to moving and generating more heat.
The body is the engine doing the work. It's always going to produce heat. That then gives off water vapour ( a gas) until it's in sufficient quantity to form a liquid. ( sweat ).
Gore-tex doesn't say 'Guaranteed to keep you dry in every situation' or 'at all times'.
Most people do not want to wait to find out everything there is to know about the technology behind membranes, be it Gore-tex or any one of the dozens of membranes that have copied that technology since Gore-tex came about more than 40 or 50 years ago.
Short attention spans demand to know if its going to work or not.
When i was trying to sell this stuff twenty years ago i needed to know and pushed to find out. I have demonstrated it many times since and i have witnessed first hand how most people won't sit out the whole explanation.

The thickness of the outer fabric adhered to the membrane is another of the key factors retarding the effectiveness of the statistics on breathability. That also determines durability. It's the same with the inner layer (like in a three layer jacket).
Although, i always wanted to further focus on the glues that stick all these together.

The thing is they aren't going to make the jacket out of JUST the membrane. PTFE (PolyTetraFlouroEthylene). The same stuff as plumbers tape. The white thin membrane you put around the thread of a tap to stop it leaking.

You know, it's got to be more than the chemicals in DWR that are a threat to our environment. I expect anything with Poly, Flouro and Ethylene in its name is also questionable. In fact petro chemicals as a whole have to be questioned. That means plastic, nylons, polyesters, almost any synthetic. And most of us wear that stuff against our skin every day, nearly all day.

[GPSGuided]

Can’t work out if this is just a Patagonia marketing move or there’s real substance. Hard to imagine that Patagonia is developing than an industry move, led by specialty chemical companies.