Gas Stoves - Compare Other Fuels, and Improvements in Design

[flyfisher]

Admin: This topic has been split off from this Risk Management topic.

Hi Bush_walker, just wondering if you guys in SA have tried gas stoves for cooking, really takes the effort out of the heating (and preheating).

My other stove is a Whisperlite internationale and I wouldnt ghange back.

In Tassie there is probably more focus on some hot food (not for lunch though) and a Kovea with Piezo ignition at 85g gives instant heat-no mess- no smell. In the forum group that I walk with there are 10 of us and 10 gas stoves. Just wondering.

Flyfisher

[Bush Walker]

I used gas stoves for about 10 years in the late eighties and early nineties and then swapped to MSR Whisperlite because of the poor performance of gas in very cold windy conditions, the need to carry the empty containers back home and the lack of uniformity in the thread types and hence availability, which I believe still continues today.

I have been having a detailed discussion with Tonys Bushwalking re the efficiency of gas vs shellite on my blog http://www.bushwalkingskills.com/2010/0 ... ffort.html. There are several links to other similar discussions

[corvus]

I used gas stoves for about 10 years in the late eighties and early nineties and then swapped to MSR Whisperlite because of the poor performance of gas in very cold windy conditions, the need to carry the empty containers back home and the lack of uniformity in the thread types and hence availability, which I believe still continues today.

I have been having a detailed discussion with Tonys Bushwalking re the efficiency of gas vs shellite on my blog http://www.bushwalkingskills.com/2010/0 ... ffort.html. There are several links to other similar discussions

Bush_walker,
I agree that if not treated properly gas stoves can be a pain in cold conditions however disagree that there is a lack of uniformity in the thread types as we ( group of 10 strollers) have no problems with the various brands used .
I think you should be testing products in 2010 rather than basing your comments on hearsay and what you used over 15 years ago before making comments about performance .
My experience 15 odd years ago with Whisperlites was that they are fast albeit very smelly,noisy and in some hands downright dangerous and my opinion has not changed based on my recent observation of their use .
corvus

PS this should be in a different thread (is now thanks Nik)

[Bush Walker]

How do you move a discussion to a new thread?

[ILUVSWTAS]

You ask a Mod.

[Son of a Beach]

...and using the "!" reporting tool was a good way to bring it to our attention - thanks for that. It's very useful when people use the reporting tool to bring something to the mod-team's attention for whatever reason, and it is very under-utilised on this site.

[sthughes]

the need to carry the empty containers back home

Crikey you must be into looong walks for this to become an issue. A 100 gram canister lasts me 3 nights easily, so say a 450g canister would last the best part of fortnight or so!
What do you do with the empty Shellite bottles?
But yes if it's purely weight of setup versus amount of water boiled over many days, disregarding everything else, Shellite wins, especially in the cold.

I don't think anyone could argue gas is more efficient in very cold conditions, but it does do okay provided you take sensible measures like shielding the wind and buying the proper gas mixture. For the convenience alone I couldn't go past gas. You can always use an "inverted canister" gas stove for the best of both worlds (like Jetboil Helios, Coleman Fyrestorm etc.)

I didn't even know there was bushwalking gas canisters with a different thread

[Tony]

Hi sthughes,

the need to carry the empty containers back home

Crikey you must be into looong walks for this to become an issue. A 100 gram canister lasts me 3 nights easily, so say a 450g canister would last the best part of fortnight or so!
What do you do with the empty Shellite bottles?
But yes if it's purely weight of setup versus amount of water boiled over many days, disregarding everything else, Shellite wins, especially in the cold.

I don't think anyone could argue gas is more efficient in very cold conditions, but it does do okay provided you take sensible measures like shielding the wind and buying the proper gas mixture. For the convenience alone I couldn't go past gas. You can always use an "inverted canister" gas stove for the best of both worlds (like Jetboil Helios, Coleman Fyrestorm etc.)

I didn't even know there was bushwalking gas canisters with a different thread

This is from Roger Caffin FAQ Fuel mixtures

If you are planning on a cold winter trip, and especially if you are planning on a snow trip, you should consider a liquid-feed stove. These work reliably quite a way down in temperature. However, below -20 C things do get difficult even for liquid-feed gas stoves, even with the best of fuel mixes. I thought this was below a reasonable range of temperatures until a Canadian gently explained to me that they often camped with obbvernight temperatures of -30 C. Now that is cold. To make matters worse, both the Powermax and the Kovea canisters hit zero gas flow around -24 C, so just getting the stove started might be very difficuult for said Canadian! That said, you can always warm up the canister just a little inside your jacket (or in your sleeping bag) to get it started, and then let some radiation from the stove hit the canister while you are cooking. Just make sure you can touch the canister at all times.

I have used my liquid feed Coleman Extreme gas stove at around -20C with no difficulties.

Tony

[Franco]

All too often we assume that everybody does the same walks in the same temperatures and cooking the same as we do.
Sadly that is not the case...
For example for a particular trip I suggested to a mate of mine the MSR XGK. EX Now keeping in mind that I use a pretty minimalistic Caldera Cone with a 15g burner and a 550ml pot, why would I suggest a 1.5L pot with heat exchanger, a 500g stove (with fuel container) and Shellite ?
Well, I do overnights to 6 days in moderate temps and only boil water. He had to melt enough snow to get a gallon of water plus per day at temps down to -40c (Alaska in Feb)
See ? we are not all the same...
Tomorrow I will be using another cone with a 1.5l pot, he most likely will use a small Kovea gas stove. ( I am guessing, as he has several to chose from..)
I also suggested that Kovea Ti to him as a replacement in reasonable weather for his 20 year old Coleman 1/2 kilo thingo.
Franco

[sthughes]

Well I guess being Bushwalk Australia and being a guy from SA I thought it was fair to talk 'Australian'. So yes if you are walking around the Vostok area in the winter at -89 degrees C then any gas stove is a really dumb idea.
In Australia (where the lowest ever recorded temperature is -23 degrees) I wouldn't be too worried. Having said that, if you plan to be routinely in the way, way below zero range in the winter up in the alps then go for at a liquid feed or shellite. At those temps the convenience of a normal gas canister stove disappears and is replaced by frustration at having to warm up the canister for it to work.

[sthughes]

Actually at -89 degrees good luck getting pretty much anything to work. Shellite freezes before that doesn't it?

[Bush Walker]

I didn't even know there was bushwalking gas canisters with a different thread

Maybe there isn't a difference in the threads any longer. Can anyone help with some factual information about the threads?

[corvus]

Bush_walker,

Gas Cannisters sold in Australia comply with EN417 specifications so as far as I am aware all threaded disposable cannisters have the same thread .

EN417
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
EN417 is a European spec concerning non-refillable metallic cartridges for liquefied petroleum gases. More colloquially it is used to refer to the threaded 7/16 NS (Lindal Valve) on disposable butane and/or butane/propane mix cartridges used for backpacking stoves such as those supplied by Epigas (Coleman), GoSystem, Primus, Brunton, Jetboil, Snow Peak, etc

It is also worth reading the very comprehensive report by Roger Caffin on Gas Stoves here. http://www.bushwalking.org.au/FAQ/FAQ_G ... htm#Thread

Hope this helps.
corvus

[Bush Walker]

Bush_walker,

Gas Cannisters sold in Australia comply with EN417 specifications so as far as I am aware all threaded disposable cannisters have the same thread .

Thanks Corvus. Maybe things have changed with threads over the last few years, in which case I might have another look. perhaps i can crush the empty canisters, so they take up less room in my pack on a 10 days walk????

Are threads in NZ the same?.

[corvus]

B-w,
As most refillable Gas Cannisters sold here are manufactured in Korea and there are no NZ specific Gas Stoves I think we can assume that they are the same as Australia, why not ask Blacksheep
c

[Nuts]

. perhaps i can crush the empty canisters, so they take up less room in my pack on a 10 days walk????

Err, I dont think that's the best idea... You wont do it underfoot and i wouldnt go wacking them with a rock. Just carryem, theyll only take the room used they did full id imagine you'd only get through a couple of littleuns?

[Nuts]

Shellite stoves are very much in their element in cold weather. There is a bit of an art to them though, especially getting something like a simmer out of basic designs. Probably not the best option for the occasional summer walker or novice with a lot of other things to think about but still worth considering for dedicated winter walking, 'an art worth your learning'.

I have seen a few accidents with them, mostly with overfilling primer cup models. The trick there is to pay close attention to how much fuel used to prime. Just wet the bowl, nothing more. If this isnt enough to preheat wet it again rather than use more first up.

Ha, last summer I watched a guy in Windy Ridge Hut (BN) as his whisperlite went up in flames on the table. He was trying to look casual despite the increasing panic obvious on his face, in the end he ran out with the spreading flaming mess in his hand (moving it was his second mistake). I dont think he understood what had gone wrong. Minutes later he did exactly the same thing... just couldn't get his (all too common) mistake.

[Orion]

. perhaps i can crush the empty canisters, so they take up less room in my pack on a 10 days walk????

Err, I dont think that's the best idea... You wont do it underfoot and i wouldnt go wacking them with a rock. Just carryem, theyll only take the room used they did full id imagine you'd only get through a couple of littleuns?

I crush mine sometimes. It takes a big rock and some effort. It helps a lot if you can open the canister first with a can opener. No real danger (i.e. explosion), other than hurting yourself with the rock.

[Son of a Beach]

Just don't get the empty canister mixed up with the nearly-empty one.

[Nuts]

Is there 'no real danger of explosion'?

[sthughes]

Crikey, why bother? You really shouldn't have an issue fitting them in where they came from should you? Although I guess the air one displaces will weigh like 0.6g, so if you have a couple of emptys you stand to loose a gram or two by crushing them

[Orion]

I don't think it's dangerous. I've played around with canisters quite a bit and have indeed crushed "nearly empty" ones. They make some noise and smell a bit, not unlike my usual hiking partner. In fact the smell is similar. But dangerous? No, really, the biggest risk is in either wrenching my back lifting a large hunk of granite or hitting my toe with said rock.

You guys are right that it's generally not vital to reduce pack volume that far into the trip. But it is nice to have less stuff to fit in the pack. And it prepares the canister for recycling disposal. I usually crush my beer cans too.

[Charlievee]

In my opinion shellite stoves are far superior to gas stoves; but that's my opinion only. My MSR Simmerlite can get as low a simmer as I need, but then again, I'm pretty much a boil n freezer bag guy. The canisters you must pack out, the fact that you must warm the canister in cold weather and the`cost of the fuel and canister are deciding factors for me. I buy a 4 litre bottle of shellite and it does me a LONG time. I carry it in the approved metal bottles ; IMO the only safe way to carry the fuel. Please understand this is just my take on it. I've used petrol stoves for a long time, so I am biased. I have tried other stoves (Trangias, pop can stoves, MSR Pocket rocket and the like) and keep coming back to my old MSR favourites. YMMV. Regards, CV

[sthughes]

I don't get this theme of it being a problem having to carry out the canister/s with gas stoves. What do you do with the shellite bottle when empty?? Leave it behind??

[Charlievee]

I don't get this theme of it being a problem having to carry out the canister/s with gas stoves. What do you do with the shellite bottle when empty?? Leave it behind??

I guess it's got to do with the fact that the canisters have outlived their usefulness when empty - a single use item. Literally. My MSR shellite bottles have been filled and refilled dozens of times. CV

[sthughes]

Yeah fair enough, so this issue is waste, not actually having to carry them out
I agree, they are wasteful. Re-fillable canisters would be a goer. They can be refilled, just not legally. I'm surprised they can't be collected at outdoor shops etc. and sent to a commercial re-filler for testing and re-filling, maybe re-badged as an eco-alternative. I guess the profit margin just wouldn't be there.

[Tony]

Hi Charlie,

In my opinion shellite stoves are far superior to gas stoves; but that's my opinion only. My MSR Simmerlite can get as low a simmer as I need, but then again, I'm pretty much a boil n freezer bag guy. The canisters you must pack out, the fact that you must warm the canister in cold weather and the`cost of the fuel and canister are deciding factors for me. I buy a 4 litre bottle of shellite and it does me a LONG time. I carry it in the approved metal bottles ; IMO the only safe way to carry the fuel. Please understand this is just my take on it. I've used petrol stoves for a long time, so I am biased. I have tried other stoves (Trangias, pop can stoves, MSR Pocket rocket and the like) and keep coming back to my old MSR favourites. YMMV. Regards, CV

For a start I respect your right to use whatever stove you want to use, the most important factor is with whatever stove you use, is to be happy with your system, but using a Shellite stove is all very well if you are happy to carry the extra weight.

Second, I disagree with you that shellite stoves are superior to gas stoves, these days there are many gas stoves that can comfortably work at -20C, one is your Simmerlites cousin MSR Windpro

Tony

[Tony]

Hi Charlie,

I don't get this theme of it being a problem having to carry out the canister/s with gas stoves. What do you do with the shellite bottle when empty?? Leave it behind??

I guess it's got to do with the fact that the canisters have outlived their usefulness when empty - a single use item. Literally. My MSR shellite bottles have been filled and refilled dozens of times. CV

If you are truely worried about the environment then why are you using non renewable petrol as your stove fuel.

Tony

[Nuts]

Tony, we used whisperlite before going to windpro. In minus temperatures we find that the windpro needs work to keep up steam. Both have had a lot of use, over many years. Shaking, warming, inverting... At first thoughts, things we never did with the shellite version to achieve the same result... Are we doing something wrong? Otherwise i'd have to disagree... The whisperlite with a few pumps now and then will keep up a constant flame in these temperatures where the winpro is always work and struggle...

[Tony]

Hi Nuts,

Tony, we used whisperlite before going to windpro. In minus temperatures we find that the windpro needs work to keep up steam. Both have had a lot of use, over many years. Shaking, warming, inverting... At first thoughts, things we never did with the shellite version to achieve the same result... Are we doing something wrong? Otherwise i'd have to disagree... The whisperlite with a few pumps now and then will keep up a constant flame in these temperatures where the winpro is always work and struggle...

Did you use the windpro with an inverterted canister (please note that MSR recomends not to use the Windpro with inverted canisters but many walkers use the windpro with inverted canisters with no problems).

I have used inverted canisters at around -20C both in the field and at home when testing.

Tony