Sanitarium "One Square Meal"

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Re: Sanitarium "One Square Meal"

Postby wayno » Fri 04 Jul, 2014 9:37 am

dont associate weight loss with good health.... it seems to be it may be weight loss is a side effect of eating a high fat diet... but not all weight loss is healthy. fast weight loss is not associated with good health in the long run...
you eat high fat and or high protein, those nutrients are slow to digest. that may be the reason you're loosing weight, but possibly more to it...
high carbs without enough fibre floods the body with large mounts of energy rapidly, encouraging it to be stored as fat...
i was reading somewhere a study claaimed if you have a major health event, overweight people are more likely to recover faster than lean people..
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Re: Sanitarium "One Square Meal"

Postby wayno » Fri 04 Jul, 2014 9:38 am

high fat diet? my guess is when you're getting around half or more of your calories as fat you've got a high fat diet... for it to be a health issue is, i cant recall where the threshold was mentioned you may have to be consuming two thirds or more of your calories as fat for it to be an issue but again come down to quality of the fat, vegetable oils you need to be careful with, they go rancid easily if not stored or used properly in food preparation... saturated fats wil take more abuse before they go off...
in the west theres real issues about finding high quality vege oils. i wouldnt trust any vege oil on the supermarket shelf that wasnt at least in a dark bottle, cold pressed and preferably refrigerated. exception of coconut oil. its a lot more stable.
a media figure Paul Holmes in nz claimed a test done on imported olive oils to nz from the northern hemisphere showed they were all rancid.
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Re: Sanitarium "One Square Meal"

Postby LandSailor » Fri 04 Jul, 2014 9:57 am

Strider wrote:Can you define 'high-fat diet"? I can only eat so much bacon...


Its basically getting the majority of your energy from fats rather than carbs. From my experience this is more than enough for average daily requirements.
If your going to doing anything strenuous then maybe you need to "carb up" a bit beforehand.
There are many variations of course but a ketogenic diet which I have had good success with involves something like this:-

Do Not Eat:

Grains - wheat, corn, rice, oats etc.
Sugar - honey, fruit, maple syrup, agave
Starchy Vegetables - potato, yams, carrots etc.

Eat:

Meats - fish, beef, lamb, poultry, eggs, whey protein powder
Leafy Greens - spinach, kale, lettuce etc.
Above ground vegetables - broccoli, cauliflower, cucumber etc.
High Fat Dairy - hard cheeses, high fat cream, butter
Nuts and seeds - sunflower seeds, almonds, pistachios etc.
Avocado and berries - both fruit, but they are high in fiber and low on the glycemic index (meaning they have little effect on blood sugar)
Other fats - mayo, high fat salad dressing, cream cheese and coconut oil are all generally ok, so long as you check the nutrition label.


For weight loss you can calculate your optimal macronutrient(fats, carbs and proteins) ratio here.

Some further info:-

Beginners Guide to Keto
Keto FAQ
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Re: Sanitarium "One Square Meal"

Postby wayno » Fri 04 Jul, 2014 10:06 am

avoid cooked nuts and seeds, it tends to spoil the fat,,, raw nuts and seeds have enzyme inhibitors that retard the digestion, best way to prepare is soak in water a few hours which destroys the enzyme inhibitors...,
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Re: Sanitarium "One Square Meal"

Postby photohiker » Fri 04 Jul, 2014 11:19 am

Well there you go. All along I was of the impression that if you wanted to lose weight, all you need to do is to reduce intake and increase activity. Apparently, I was wrong. All you need to do is to switch to a high fat diet.

So when I got off my backside 9 years ago and started doing exercise including bush walking and dropped 13kg it must have been for some other reason than increasing activity and reducing intake?

There are a thousand diets out there all with supporters. It's no surprise there is support for a high fat diet or a high carb diet or any other diet.
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Re: Sanitarium "One Square Meal"

Postby LandSailor » Fri 04 Jul, 2014 11:51 am

photohiker wrote:Well there you go. All along I was of the impression that if you wanted to lose weight, all you need to do is to reduce intake and increase activity. Apparently, I was wrong. All you need to do is to switch to a high fat diet.


Not disagreeing with you photohiker..its just if you had been on a high-fat diet you would have lost more weight faster. And from my experience you wouldnt be fighting your appetite like happens on a conventional low-fat diet. The same number of calories from fat feels way more satiating than the equivalent calories from carbs. And your energy levels also dont spike then bottom out as happens from carb intake. Energy levels from fat are much more consistent over the day in my experience.

A high-fat diet is certainly not the only way to lose weight but the evidence seems to show it is the easiest way.
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Re: Sanitarium "One Square Meal"

Postby wayno » Fri 04 Jul, 2014 2:03 pm

when you eat a high fat diet it takes about two hours digesting in your stomach before it releases to your intestines... you feel full because your stomach is flat out trying to digest whats in there ... carbs are passed to the intestines way faster when you eat high carb meals. the whole chain of digesting fat. is slower at every stage, your liver has to do a lot more work to break down the fat ...
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Re: Sanitarium "One Square Meal"

Postby photohiker » Fri 04 Jul, 2014 2:22 pm

I think you lose weight based on the deficit of intake versus expenditure. That's nothing specific to fat or carbs, it's just if you control the fuel intake and burn more than you intake then the weight will go down. You want to drop it faster, take on less fuel and burn even more.

Dropping weight faster is not considered a good thing. Crash diets have a reputation for health impacts and weight loss failures after the diet ends. I burned mine off over several months and I have had no problem keeping it off by maintaining a daily exercise regimen and not going crazy eating stuff regardless of fat or carbs. I feel sorry for people who have got themselves into a high volume meal habit - they land up with expanded stomachs and they always feel hungry. I might feel hungry near meal times (which is pretty normal) but I've never noticed a difference in time to hunger after a fatty meal. On a multi day walk I have trail food to top up along the way and I have always been fine as a result. Spiking and then bottoming out sounds more like a diabetic problem than a food group choice problem, thankfully something that hasn't been a problem for me.

If you want a good reference for many diets, just subscribe to the Womens Weekly and similar magazines. Just because a diet exists doesn't mean it is the answer. The answer is far simpler than a published diet.

wayno, I don't often have a high fat meal, but I know when I do, and I agree that the body works a lot harder processing it than a normal balanced meal.
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Re: Sanitarium "One Square Meal"

Postby LandSailor » Mon 07 Jul, 2014 11:36 am

photohiker wrote:I think you lose weight based on the deficit of intake versus expenditure. That's nothing specific to fat or carbs, it's just if you control the fuel intake and burn more than you intake then the weight will go down. You want to drop it faster, take on less fuel and burn even more.


Again not disagreeing with that but I think there is something different between how your body handles fat and carbs with regard to appetite. Its not simply a case of your body measuring calorie intake regardless of nutrient type and adjusting your appetite accordingly. For me at least, carbs affect my appetite and energy levels in a way that fat doesnt (and no Im not pre-diabetic!). This is only something Ive noticed after I cut down the carbs and was able to compare.

Here's a study where they compare the fat loss between 3 diets over a 2 year period - (standard low-fat, mediterranean and a low carb diet). At the end it was found that the low-carb/high-fat diet lost nearly twice as much weight(4.7kg) than the low fat(2.9kg). And significantly, if you look at the methods...the low-fat and mediterranean diets were calorie restricted (1500kcal per day) whilst the low-carb diet was not calorie-restricted at all! (Dont ask me why they did it that way...its there in their methods). The low-carb diet was also found to improve lipid (cholesterol) profile compared to the other diets. The low-carb diet also showed the biggest reduction in inflammation markers (C-reactive protein). Again all this mirrors my own personal experience. Mediterranean diets were found to better for diabetics.


photohiker wrote: Dropping weight faster is not considered a good thing. Crash diets have a reputation for health impacts and weight loss failures after the diet ends. I burned mine off over several months and I have had no problem keeping it off by maintaining a daily exercise regimen and not going crazy eating stuff regardless of fat or carbs.


Agree but for alot of overweight people regular exercise does not happen so the ease with which they can manage their appetite becomes critical. Other than that the rate of weight loss will depend on how much you choose to eat whether its fat or carbs.


photohiker wrote:If you want a good reference for many diets, just subscribe to the Womens Weekly and similar magazines. Just because a diet exists doesn't mean it is the answer. The answer is far simpler than a published diet.


Im not saying that a ketogenic diet is the ultimate diet but I do think it is more than just another fad diet. My blood markers has improved significantly and I doubt that I would see these same results from a typical diet you'd see in the womens weekly. Also with this kind of diet Im eating for the most part unprocessed foods that have been part of the human diet for millions of years. Its only radical now in the current context (post Ancel Keys). So in that sense its not really a fad at all.


photohiker wrote:I don't often have a high fat meal, but I know when I do, and I agree that the body works a lot harder processing it than a normal balanced meal.


Not sure thats a fair comparison. Firstly, any typical fatty meal is probably large in volume and also packed with carbs and protein. Ive found it very hard to eat genuine low-carb unless you really conciously focus on it. A hamburger will have the bun and the chips, spaghetti will have the pasta, steak will have potatoes and carrots, bread roll etc. So your appetite is still impacted by the carbs you are eating regardless of fat content.
Secondly, it takes up to 2-3 weeks on a low-carb diet before your body is properly adapted to handling fat as the primary source of energy. During this transition phase you lack energy and dont feel great. Once adapted your head clears and you have good energy. So making a comparison based on the odd fatty meal in-between typical high-carb meals wont give you an accurate picture at all.
Thirdly, when I say a "high-fat" meal Im not talking about a high volume of fat, Im talking about a meal where the relative ratio of fat is high with a small serving of protein.
I am finding on a ketogenic diet that my meals are generally smaller and not hard to digest at all (particularly as Im adapted to eating fat anyway).

I understand that in a sea of conflicting diet advice the sensible solution is to just take the middle ground with a traditional balanced (or should that be labelled high-carb?) diet.
There is some basis for evaluating a ketogenic diet too though. Just take a range of blood tests (cholesterol including hdl, ldl subfractions and particle count, triglycerides, inflammation markers etc).
Then go on a ketogenic diet for a few months and after get the same blood tests redone. Whats changed? Have you fairly effortlessly lost some weight? Have all your risk factors improved? Good HDL cholesterol up? Small particle LDL down? Triglycerides down? Inflammation markers down?
If you do the diet properly and dont cheat yourself by taking in hidden carbs, its fairly certain that all these things will happen. Of course the relative impact will depend on your existing state of health prior to starting the diet.


For what its worth, Pete Evans has also made similar observations.

"No wonder the public is confused. Each and every time an article comes out about health and nutrition in this country, the journalists always feel the need to get a spokesperson from the Dietitians Association of Australia to add in their position. "Here is a list of the the major partners of the Dietitians Association of Australia ... Campbells, Arnotts, Nestle, Unilever."

"There seems to be a lot of large companies with vested interests," he counters. There is a growing scepticism, he continues, of government health bodies, because "we're getting sicker as a nation. Look at the statistics of our nation and other nations".

Instead, the "advanced" paleo way, as he calls it, advocates minimal starches and sugars, moderate protein, abundant greens, nuts, seeds, eggs (if tolerated) and "as much dietary natural fat as is needed to satisfy the appetite and support the healthiest brain and nervous system".
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Re: Sanitarium "One Square Meal"

Postby wayno » Mon 07 Jul, 2014 11:44 am

if you eat a high carb diet, your blood sugar is far more likely to spike than eating a high fat one...
when your blood sugar spikes, your body then floods your blood stream with insulin to remove the excess blood sugar... it will store it in your liver and muscles but eventually they fill up and your body will turn the remaining sugar into fat....
and you can also get reactive hypoglycemia as a result, the high amount of insulin can then drop your blood sugar leaving you feeling weak and hungry! so you want to eat even more....
refined carbs and sugar are the worst for this scenario since they get absorbed faster than unrefined food that has fibre in it to slow down the release of the nutrients... you need fat to digest food properly as well. not enough fat can leave you hungry no matter how much you eat.. also fat slows down the rapid absorption of sugar and carbs as well reducing the blood sugar spike.
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Re: Sanitarium "One Square Meal"

Postby LandSailor » Mon 07 Jul, 2014 11:53 am

That makes sense Wayno...when people talk about a simple calories in/calories out model its as if we just have a dial on our body and have set it to the wrong level.
Never a mention of the challenges of managing hunger and fatigue and how different nutrient types might play a big role in that.
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Re: Sanitarium "One Square Meal"

Postby wayno » Mon 07 Jul, 2014 12:04 pm

the food industry trade on refined carb and sugar food with low fat....
theres also the argument about flavour, the more you flavour food the more it stimulates your hypothalamus to stimulate your sense of hunger so you over eat. try eating unflavoured plain non sweetened or salted or spiced food and see if the volume of food you eat changes...
one trick with processed food is to put in high amounts of sugar and salt to increase the flavour and desire to eat it.... they mask each others excess sickly taste when you combine them,, jamie oliver did it in an experiment, he made food flavoured with just high sugar or high salt and people found it inedible, but when he combined the two people were happy to eat it....
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Re: Sanitarium "One Square Meal"

Postby photohiker » Mon 07 Jul, 2014 1:23 pm

LandSailor, The Women's weekly calls their version of the Keto diet the 'Paleo Diet' :D
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Re: Sanitarium "One Square Meal"

Postby wayno » Mon 07 Jul, 2014 1:29 pm

high protein diets work similarly to high fat diet, its slow to digest, reduces blood sugar spikes. curbs your appetite... as far as weight loss goes its possibly better because there are less than half the calories in protein that there are in fat by weight.... although one aspect of fat is that it doesnt get broken down to sugar at all.. hence no sugar spikes,,
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Re: Sanitarium "One Square Meal"

Postby LandSailor » Mon 07 Jul, 2014 9:38 pm

photohiker wrote:LandSailor, The Women's weekly calls their version of the Keto diet the 'Paleo Diet' :D


The Keto, Paleo and Atkins are all variations of a low-carb diet. It just boils down to where your getting your energy from - carbs or fats.
And it seems if you lower your carbs then your health improves.

For example here's another study that was done at Stanford University that compared the Atkins (high-fat), Zone, Ornish (high-carb) and LEARN diets.

In this study, premenopausal overweight and obese women assigned to follow the Atkins diet, which had the lowest carbohydrate intake, lost more weight and experienced more favorable overall metabolic effects at 12 months than women assigned to follow the Zone, Ornish, or LEARN diets.

He discusses the study in the video below. If you skip to 20 mins 30 secs to starts talking about the results. At the 29 min mark he compares Atkins with the national dietary guidelines.
Atkins wins on every point of comparison (despite no doubt appearing in the women's weekly at some point!). The Atkins low-carb/high fat diet also had the highest retention rate of all the diets. Interestingly, the guy running the experiment was a 25 year vegetarian so the results were not something he expected.

The Battle of the Diets: Is Anyone Winning (At Losing?)

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Re: Sanitarium "One Square Meal"

Postby wayno » Tue 08 Jul, 2014 4:38 am

atkins diet, low fibre, high protein fat, high constipation.... long term people have become very sick on the atkins diet, very acidic diet, very hard on the liver and kidneys... long term decalcification of the bones, calckium is one of the main ways your body copes with acidic diets, it will pull it from our bones to neutralise the ph of an acidic diet.
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Re: Sanitarium "One Square Meal"

Postby Picaro » Tue 08 Jul, 2014 5:11 am

I believe the problem was not so much the Atkins protocol, but the fact that many people stayed on the induction phase, rather than bring carbs back in to a sustainable level as recommended. There has been a new publication called the "New Atkins" that hopefully presses home that point.
Paleo, Primal or Ancestral diets are mistakenly labelled high fat, and indeed some people adopt a ketogenic or nearly so, approach to Paleo. These lifestyles....which they are since a return to physical activity of an aerobic nature is a central theme...would better be described as an unprocessed diet high in vegetable, with much of the energy requirement derived from fats ( including avo's, olives, coconut fats etc ) rather than copious carb intake.
I think acidification is a big problem with the modern diet as well, with high grains, processed foods, coca cola etc.

IMHO, keto, or very low carb, is useful as a cyclic protocol for basically healthy people. Long term, especially when unmonitored, thyroid issues can be another problem along with acidity ( not to be confused with diabetic ketoacidosis, which is entirely different and deadly )

A general carb level, including much vege's, would be 100 to 200 gm for average folk, maybe up to 300 for very active people who operate anaerobically regularly.
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Re: Sanitarium "One Square Meal"

Postby wayno » Tue 08 Jul, 2014 5:14 am

paleolithic humans still ate a fair bit of vegetable matter and carbs and or sugar... it wasnt necessarily as high meat as some try and make out...
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Re: Sanitarium "One Square Meal"

Postby Leiothrix » Wed 09 Jul, 2014 9:20 am

wayno wrote:atkins diet, low fibre, high protein fat, high constipation.... long term people have become very sick on the atkins diet, very acidic diet, very hard on the liver and kidneys... long term decalcification of the bones, calckium is one of the main ways your body copes with acidic diets, it will pull it from our bones to neutralise the ph of an acidic diet.


There is no such thing as an acidifying or alkalising diet. Your body regulates pH very tightly.

If you eat something too acidic/basic, you risk upsetting your stomach (or possibly burning your upper GIT, but that's getting a bit silly). If your body is functioning properly the combination of stomach acid and bile will put the food in the pH range that your body wants.

If you eat enough fat with Atkins style diet you shouldn't have any problems with constipation. The problem is that should be 20% ish, and most people trim fat rather than eat it.

High protein can be a problem with kidneys, but only if you don't drink enough water or have existing problems.

The main way your body buffers itself is with carbonates, HCO3 <-> H2CO3 <-> CO2. The main way that balances is atmospheric CO2, i.e. breathing.
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Re: Sanitarium "One Square Meal"

Postby wayno » Wed 09 Jul, 2014 9:27 am

osteoporosis affects people worse for who consume diets high in protein and or fat....
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Re: Sanitarium "One Square Meal"

Postby wayno » Wed 09 Jul, 2014 9:31 am

The long-term studies of MacDonald and New and their colleagues (12,13) support Wachman and Bernstein's assertion that 15% of skeletal calcium can be lost over a decade to buffer a mild metabolic acidosis as a result of dietary practices


http://jn.nutrition.org/content/138/1/164S.full
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Re: Sanitarium "One Square Meal"

Postby Picaro » Wed 09 Jul, 2014 9:35 am

Leiothrix wrote:If you eat enough fat with Atkins style diet you shouldn't have any problems with constipation. The problem is that should be 20% ish, and most people trim fat rather than eat it.

This has been my experience.

Leiothrix wrote:High protein can be a problem with kidneys, but only if you don't drink enough water or have existing problems.

Most peoples bodies will tell them if they overdid the protein with a dose of the squirts :oops:

Leiothrix wrote:The main way your body buffers itself is with carbonates, HCO3 <-> H2CO3 <-> CO2. The main way that balances is atmospheric CO2, i.e. breathing.

This is interesting, do you have any more on it ?
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Re: Sanitarium "One Square Meal"

Postby Leiothrix » Wed 09 Jul, 2014 9:41 am

Metabolic acidosis isn't (generally) diet induced though:
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000335.htm

Metabolic acidosis occurs when the body produces too much acid, or when the kidneys are not removing enough acid from the body.

There are several types of metabolic acidosis:

Diabetic acidosis (also called diabetic ketoacidosis and DKA) develops when substances known as ketone bodies, which are acidic, build up during uncontrolled type 1 diabetes
Hyperchloremic acidosis results from excessive loss of sodium bicarbonate from the body, as can happen with severe diarrhea
Lactic acidosis is a buildup of lactic acid. It can be caused by:
Alcohol
Cancer
Exercising for a very long time
Liver failure
Low blood sugar (hypoglycemia)
Medications such as salicylates
Prolonged lack of oxygen from shock, heart failure, or severe anemia
Seizures

Other causes of metabolic acidosis include:

Kidney disease (distal tubular acidosis and proximal renal tubular acidosis)
Poisoning by aspirin, ethylene glycol (found in antifreeze), or methanol
Severe dehydration
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Re: Sanitarium "One Square Meal"

Postby Leiothrix » Wed 09 Jul, 2014 9:42 am

Picaro wrote:
Leiothrix wrote:The main way your body buffers itself is with carbonates, HCO3 <-> H2CO3 <-> CO2. The main way that balances is atmospheric CO2, i.e. breathing.

This is interesting, do you have any more on it ?


Just a quickie from wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metabolic_acidosis
Compensatory mechanisms

Metabolic acidosis is either due to increased generation of acid or an inability to generate sufficient bicarbonate. The body regulates the acidity of the blood by four buffering mechanisms.

bicarbonate buffering system
Intracellular buffering by absorption of hydrogen atoms by various molecules, including proteins, phosphates and carbonate in bone.
Respiratory compensation
Renal compensation
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Re: Sanitarium "One Square Meal"

Postby icefest » Wed 09 Jul, 2014 11:43 am

This is the corresponding article on the physiology of human acid-base balance: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acid%E2%80 ... omeostasis

If you want some more detailed physiology explanations PM me and I'll send you the chapter from one of my textbooks.
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Re: Sanitarium "One Square Meal"

Postby Orion » Wed 09 Jul, 2014 12:38 pm

icefest, perhaps you can answer a question for me.

Someone who subscribes to the whole alkaline diet theory was saying that it made sense to adjust one's acid/base diet composition when going to high altitude. I thought that this was probably nonsense but I wondered: in the case where the body is already pH stressed (high altitude) could diet make a difference? I think that, if it did, one would want to eat more acidic food. My guess is the answer is "hokum" but I'm willing to be shown that it could matter in this case.

What do you think?
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Re: Sanitarium "One Square Meal"

Postby Leiothrix » Wed 09 Jul, 2014 12:54 pm

The whole acid/alkaline diet thing is rubbish.

As far as I can tell, all food breaks down to something acidic.

Your body is designed to regulate itself, if you're healthy there's nothing you need to do.
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Re: Sanitarium "One Square Meal"

Postby icefest » Wed 09 Jul, 2014 1:03 pm

Orion wrote:icefest, perhaps you can answer a question for me.

Someone who subscribes to the whole alkaline diet theory was saying that it made sense to adjust one's acid/base diet composition when going to high altitude. I thought that this was probably nonsense but I wondered: in the case where the body is already pH stressed (high altitude) could diet make a difference? I think that, if it did, one would want to eat more acidic food. My guess is the answer is "hokum" but I'm willing to be shown that it could matter in this case.

What do you think?


I'm on lunch break and can't do any decent lit reveiw now, but I'm unsure as to the extent of any possible benefits.

A quick summary: At altitude hyperventilation become more necessary due to decreased pressure of oxygen. This results in respiratory alkalosis with compensatory metabolic acidosis. (You breath off extra co2 and excrete more bicarbonate).

Unless you are in renal failure diet tends to have very little effect on these.

tl'dr I can't see a reason for the diet making a large difference but will have to check the literature to be sure.
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Re: Sanitarium "One Square Meal"

Postby LandSailor » Thu 17 Jul, 2014 11:32 am

Picaro wrote:
IMHO, keto, or very low carb, is useful as a cyclic protocol for basically healthy people. Long term, especially when unmonitored, thyroid issues can be another problem along with acidity ( not to be confused with diabetic ketoacidosis, which is entirely different and deadly )

A general carb level, including much vege's, would be 100 to 200 gm for average folk, maybe up to 300 for very active people who operate anaerobically regularly.


Thats sounds about right to me. Yes Ive heard both for and against on the thyroid issue. Either way you obviously want to constantly monitor your health markers when on this diet (including thyroid).
I think ultimately I will move towards the paleo diet once Ive achieved the overall health gains Im after. There's no doubt my health has improved by dropping my carbs.

Even more impressed with Michael Mosley...as mentioned previously he's made some great doco's and he too agrees we need to change our attitude to fat.

I was wrong - we should be feasting on fat, says The Fast Diet author Dr Michael Mosley

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Re: Sanitarium "One Square Meal"

Postby LandSailor » Mon 04 Aug, 2014 5:32 pm

At the risk of sounding like a broken record (think Im way past that) this was published in Nutrition Journal a couple of weeks ago:-

Dietary Carbohydrate restriction as the first approach in diabetes management. Critical review and evidence base

Although, obviously not directly comparable to humans I still thought this was an interesting segment on Landline. To produce the best Wagyu steaks with the highest possible fat content, what do they feed the cattle? Grains, grains and more grains. In other words, an extreme high-carb diet:-

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