Topo V Oztopo

[scroggin]

I'm close to purchasing my first GPS and am wondering which map set to buy that is best suited for bushwalking in Victoria. The Garmin Topo maps are $181 v $229 for the Oztopo.

I've downloaded a sample map from Oztopo which shows the North Coast of NSW and there either is not many bushwalking tracks in that area of Australia (which I find hard to believe) or all tracks are referred to as 'Vehicle Tracks'. The Topo maps don't seem to have a sample download so it's hard to compare. So if anyone out there can give me some input that will help me decide either way I will be very grateful or perhaps there is another alternative out there.

Also how do they both compare to Magellan's Summit Series. I'm open to being swayed over to that side as the price is a lot less and value for money is a big factor when I eventually do purchase my GPS

Thanks!

[Strider]

Don't bother with either. Look into Open Street Mapping (OSM). Lots of info on this forum and it is free.

I don't think Magellan units can display anything other than proprietary maps. Someone correct me if I'm wrong!

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[keithy]

I previously made some comments in this thread that might be of interest to you viewtopic.php?f=15&t=19031

There have been other threads discussion Magellan vs Garmin handhelds like these:

viewtopic.php?f=21&t=10279
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=10151
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=16729

As mentioned in my earlier post, one of the reasons I didn't go with the Magellan is that it couldn't do custom (raster/scanned) maps like the Garmins could. The Magellan can do this now in their Triton range. But I would caution that the Triton range doesn't have the best reviews though:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000V4VGAI
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000V4S6Y2

If you do go with Magellan though, they have a current promotion for free state based maps with the Explorist 310 http://www.magellangps.com.au/promotion (running until December). The 1:25000 state base Magellan maps are usually $50 per state, or $100 for AU or $150 for AU/NZ. In this post you can see the Explorist was recently discounted at Jbhifi for around $138 viewtopic.php?f=21&t=19912&p=269605 but the sale is finished now.

The Garmin topo maps in comparision are both for AU/NZ and in version 5, released early this year. It comes in two formats, a lite (without routable city maps and 40m contours) and a full version (which has routable city maps, points of interest, and 20m contours). The lite version is around $100, the full version is around $180. There's threads in here comparing the versions.

For OSM maps, one of the users here andrewp compiled a new set of state OSM maps with contours suitable for Garmins in this thread here: viewtopic.php?f=21&t=14234&start=120#p264802

This is another reason the Garmins were the go for me - significantly more users out there with custom maps in Garmin format and various handy tips.

[neilmny]

I have Garmin Toppo V3.0 and Oztoppo V7 but by far my favourite is OSM by a long shot.
The benefit of Garmin Topo is that you can profile your planned trips in Basecamp and Mapsource
where you cannot in Oztoppo or OSM.
IMHO with Oztoppo the quality of the maps is very good for 4WD enthusiats but not so good for bushwalking as there is a lot missing that is of interest to us.
Garmin Topo is in my opinion better even in V3.0 mainly because of the profile function.
OSM is the ants pants in terms of bushwalking specially when 10 or 20m contours are added.
You can even join in and add missing tracks and paths (but not sensitive or fragile areas please) for all to use and it's free. There is quite a learning process involved but it is worth the effort.
I personally would go for a Garmin GPS.
Good luck with it all.

[scroggin]

Thanks Guys, The reason I previously discounted OSM is because I thought they didn't have contours. This actually pushes me closer to Garmin (though I was 80% there) free maps that are considered the best for bushwalking

neilmny, when you say you can "profile" with Garmin Topo what do you mean exactly? .

Thanks for the links keithy.

[neilmny]

Hi Scroggin,
You can create a track or route in Basecamp or Mapsource and it will follow the terrain
that you create it over, you can preview a graph showing the profile so 3D I guess you'd call it.
The function in the software is "view profile".
That way you can see what you are in for in terms of ups and downs.

[GPSGuided]

The contours we see with OSM data are typically added by interested users or using a topi overlay. So the quality will depend on the topo data applied.

[scroggin]

I have downloaded the OSM maps I want for now and viewed them on basecamp - so far so good. I also tried andrewsp OSM maps for Victoria that I found from his thread here viewtopic.php?f=21&t=14234&start=150 but after I download it an error message appears saying the file is corrupt, so I'll have a bit more play around.

thanks for your help

[flywire]

I'm close to purchasing my first GPS and am wondering which map set to buy that is best suited for bushwalking in Victoria.

Why are people still buying maps when our government maps are released CC-BY (ie free).

So if anyone out there can give me some input that will help me decide either way I will be very grateful or perhaps there is another alternative out there.

Fair comment. There must be enough of us here to make these maps available for everyone. My post (http://bushwalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=20307) on free maps for multiple devices hasn't raised any interest.

Also how do they both compare to Magellan's Summit Series. I'm open to being swayed over to that side as the price is a lot less and value for money is a big factor when I eventually do purchase my GPS.

I use the Magellan 1:250k topo (exact copy freely available) and would prefer a 1:1M for outback. I have the National parks tracks which I want to release as an overlay map because in western areas you need to zoom in too far to see where the tracks are.

I have a Triton 2000, eX610 and eX710. If I was buying again I'd go for a eX110 or something cheap with limited memory that I wouldn't be too concerned about breaking and just copy the maps over as I need them. Any moron can use Mobac and it is easy to freely use the maps on multiple devices.

[flywire]

... one of the reasons I didn't go with the Magellan is that it couldn't do custom (raster/scanned) maps like the Garmins could. The Magellan can do this now in their Triton range.

BS. In 2009 the Triton was a generation ahead of the Garmin units although the Garmin units have adopted the features on some of the newer models.

But I would caution that the Triton range doesn't have the best reviews though...

Certainly there were firmware issues that were fixed -the crap sticks though. Anyway, you wont get a Triton and there is nothing wrong with the eXplorist 110-710 range. Magellan GPS units are fast and store elevations in the maps rather than just display the picture of the contour like the garmin does.


Personally, I like scanned topos with a vector overlay (eg OSM) for any road updates. If you want routable maps in the car then use your phone or buy a $100 GPS rather than spending too much money for a feature on a hiking GPS.

[GPSGuided]

Why are people still buying maps when our government maps are released CC-BY (ie free).

Maybe it's easier and more convenient?

Fair comment. there must be enough of us here to make tehse maps available for everyone. My post (http://bushwalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=20307)on free maps for multiple devices hasn't raised any interest.

Maybe it's beyond most people's technical skills? Maybe it relates to supported platform? Learning hurdle? If you follow the forum, there certainly isn't any shortage of people creating their own mapset and apps. Given the depository function of a forum, someone will find it useful at some point.

[flywire]

... Maybe it's easier and more convenient?
... Maybe it's beyond most people's technical skills? Maybe it relates to supported platform? Learning hurdle? ...

I don't accept these arguments. You are talking about someone that wants to use a GPS - which will take some skill to use. Surely they can browse in a Google Maps like program and save the zoom levels they want for the area they select to a file, then transfer that file to the GPS.

The proprietary maps aren't any easier, a lot less convienient and can't compete for quality and flexibility.

[GPSGuided]

I just had a look at the java version on the Mac and it's awfully difficult to get coverage for our Australian region. Couldn't drag the map and entering coordinates didn't help much. It's just not intuitive and I would not be surprised if others have lost interest in the SW at this step. No ideas if the alpha version has anything to do with it.

[north-north-west]

... Maybe it's easier and more convenient?
... Maybe it's beyond most people's technical skills? Maybe it relates to supported platform? Learning hurdle? ...

I don't accept these arguments. You are talking about someone that wants to use a GPS - which will take some skill to use.

Skill? I turned it on, spent ten minutes on the manual, selected the maps for the state in which I was walking, and went. My Triton requires no skill, just batteries.
Paper map and compass requires skill, modern GPS units are largely intuitive. Provided they have decent maps.

[flywire]

Skill? ...

It's relative ... apparently selecting maps from a screen and saving them is too hard.

I just had a look at the java version on the Mac ... Couldn't drag the map ...

Yes, you have to drag holding down the right button because the left button is used to select the area to be saved. That's the 'skill'.

Full instructions and example from forum member here: http://bushwalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=17091#p228044 and note the map source updates: http://bushwalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=17091#p273153

For NSW zoom right in for hiking tracks using this in a file called NSW_Base.xml in the mapsources directory under MOBAC:

Code: Select all

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<customMapSource>
 <name>NSWBase</name>
 <minZoom>0</minZoom>
 <maxZoom>18</maxZoom>
 <tileType>jpg</tileType>
 <tileUpdate>IfNoneMatch</tileUpdate>
 <url>http://mapsq.six.nsw.gov.au/arcgis/rest/services/sixmaps/LPIMap/MapServer/tile/{$z}/{$y}/{$x}</url>
 <backgroundColor>#000000</backgroundColor>
</customMapSource>

[GPSGuided]

Yes, you have to drag holding down the right button because the left button is used to select the area to be saved. That's the 'skill'.

Say no more. That's the kind of GUI design that'll stump interested parties when there are ready made alternatives. So if you are surprised why there's little interest, user interactions, here's your answer. These day and age, GUI makes and break an app.

[scroggin]

Now that I've got the map situation sorted which was my greatest concern. I've narrowed the GPS's down to 3 based on my budget the Gtrex 20, 20x and the Touch 25.
the comparisons can be viewed here https://buy.garmin.com/en-AU/AU/catalog/product/compareResult.ep?compareProduct=156867&compareProduct=518046&compareProduct=87774. Ive included the 30 and not the 20 (not sure if still supported??) as it was not an option on that website but understand it's the same but without the altimeter, compass and is cheaper.

Is resolution an issue as both the 20 and touch 25 have lower resolution then the 20x.
Does the electronic compass work as I've read they don't perform too well, has that now changed?
Do I need the double memory space in the 20x and touch 25 as I will probably only use the OSM maps in SE Australia and perhaps a propriety map later
Are touch screens less or more fiddly and does the larger screen size help?

I know a lot of these points come down to personal preference, but I'm the opposite of an impulsive buyer (considerate buyer???) and like to know I'm getting value for money, also with the rate of the Aussie dollar dropping I would like to get it sooner rather than later.

cheers,

[Strider]

My thoughts.

1. Battery life on the Touch 25 isn't very good.
2. Resolution on my Etrex 20 is fine, so the 20x should be quite good.
3. I don't find the digital compass useful. If I want a compass I will use a proper one, with a paper map.
4. Slightly more memory would be handy on my 20, and the 20x has addressed this.
5. You are looking at entry level units, so I don't think it would be wise to spend up large on features.

If it were me, I would buy the 20x for extra battery life over the Touch 25, and better resolution and memory over the 30. Spend the saving on some Eneloops and a good charger

[scroggin]

My thoughts.

1. Battery life on the Touch 25 isn't very good.
2. Resolution on my Etrex 20 is fine, so the 20x should be quite good.
3. I don't find the digital compass useful. If I want a compass I will use a proper one, with a paper map.
4. Slightly more memory would be handy on my 20, and the 20x has addressed this.
5. You are looking at entry level units, so I don't think it would be wise to spend up large on features.

If it were me, I would buy the 20x for extra battery life over the Touch 25, and better resolution and memory over the 30. Spend the saving on some Eneloops and a good charger

Thanks Strider overlooked battery life which is a biggie. looks like it is time to invest in some Eneloops (had to google it)

[GPSGuided]

Without the compass, how does it display the direction one is facing? I feel it's part and parcel of these units unless one only uses them for grid reference.

[Strider]

Without the compass, how does it display the direction one is facing? I feel it's part and parcel of these units unless one only uses them for grid reference.

Why does the direction you are facing matter? This is only an issue if you are using the unit while stopped, otherwise its quite easy to determine which way you are facing by your alignment to the contours or by the direction you are moving (unless walking backward, of course!)


*edit*
GPSguided - do you use North Up or Track Up view when navigating?

[GPSGuided]

Why does the direction you are facing matter?

It's a great help when viewing a mapping GPS, like having a compass when reading and orientating a paper map. As suggested, if one cares for mapping on the GPS, then it's disappointing to not have the compass feature when so much is already spent. Otherwise, just get a non-mapping GPS.

[GPSGuided]

I prefer north up, both on the GPS and with a paper map. Track up can be handy but typically I would read the map and take bearing when stationary. Without the compass function ie. The little blue arrow on the GPS display, getting orientated just requires an additional step. As said, with so much being invested, the tiny bit more money to get the compass feature is most worthwhile. Yes, contours can help, but what if one is in the middle of a flat land or in the fog.

[Strider]

I don't agree with you on this. If I want to know which direction I am facing I can walk ahead a few steps and watch which direction my track goes on the screen. With the display set to North Up it is quite logical. Even in fog on flat land.

[Strider]

Perhaps it depends how you use your GPS? Mind is clipped to my sternum strap and I watch it fairly regularly. It might be different for those who keep it in their pack and only check periodically?

[GPSGuided]

I too clip mine on my shoulder/chest strap for convenience and regular reference. I've tried the 'take a few steps' technique but found it less than reliable given the variance of a GPS position can be 10-20m out. Having a track log can also help in this regard by referencing one's earlier bearing. Still, my point is that if one is to spend into the triple figures, adding a bit more for the electronic compass function is most worth while. But I think what you have illustrated there is knowledge in one's tool. GPS is just a convenience tool for the outdoors. Irrespective of what feature it has or not, knowing how to fully utilise and work around is the key.

[keithy]

Now that I've got the map situation sorted which was my greatest concern. I've narrowed the GPS's down to 3 based on my budget the Gtrex 20, 20x and the Touch 25.

Is resolution an issue as both the 20 and touch 25 have lower resolution then the 20x.
Does the electronic compass work as I've read they don't perform too well, has that now changed?
Do I need the double memory space in the 20x and touch 25 as I will probably only use the OSM maps in SE Australia and perhaps a propriety map later
Are touch screens less or more fiddly and does the larger screen size help?

• The resolution between the 20 and the 20x is nice, but not a deal breaker if the 20 is significantly cheaper. I've not seen the new Touch series in person yet, but the resolution is similar to my eTrex 30, so would be quite ok IMHO. My Oregon 600 has a resolution similar to the new eTrex 20x/30x series, and is nice as well, and definitely a step up from the previous Oregon 400/500 series (but for me less so for the resolution and more for the improved screen visibility in sunlight).
• For the compass discussions, both my current devices have the electronic compass, and they work fine now. There were some firmware issues that stuffed up compass calibration in the past, but these have been fixed. Although I would caution that if you go with the newer eTrex Touch series, there most likely will be firmware issues to be sorted, based on previous Garmin GPS devices. The electronic compass is ok to have, but as Strider posted, if you start moving on a model without one, the compass will point correctly anyway. I usually have a real compass with me as well as the GPS, and my watch has an electronic compass for redundancy.
• The memory space on board the device I haven't found to be a big issue, as you can put large maps on a microSD card, and save tracks/routes/waypoints on the device. Tracks routes and waypoints take very little space compared with maps. I've currently got a 16Gb microSD card in my Oregon 600. But you shouldn't load up your card/device with too many maps, as this can slow down boot up times.
• The touch screen definitely makes a difference when entering data, or searching waypoint names etc. I've found it quicker to navigate the map screen as well. But the touch screen comes at a cost - the lower battery life. For example, my eTrex 30 gets around 18-20 hours with logging and lowest screen brightness settings, while my Oregon 600 does around 10-12 hours (all using the same LSD NiMH AAs).
  Entering and altering data and navigating the map screen on the eTrex joystick can take getting used to, and once you use the touchscreen, it is harder to go back to the joystick. Touch screens can get weird when using the screen when wet. I've put a DIY matte screen on mine which mitigates the phantom touches from rain. Not sure about the touch screen on the Touch 25 series, but on the Oregon 600 it works with gloves on.

I'd recommend going in to a store and having a look at the units in person.

I'm going to have a look at the eTrex touch series as I haven't seen it in person - the OS looks like its been tweaked, and doesn't look like the current Oregon/Montana and other touchscreen menu layouts. From some pics I've seen for example, the brightness control can be set from the main menu page (without having to go to a battery status page). I haven't seen the new Touch series in stores yet though. Johnny Appleseed has their stock coming in later this month.

If you are in the inner eastern burbs, I'm happy to let you have a go at my eTrex 30 and Oregon 600 to get an idea of touchscreen vs joystick, and compare the screen resolutions. The new Touch series looks like a baby Oregon, with the single power button on the right hand side.

Another reason I went for the eTrex 30 when I got it was that it could connect to ANT+ sensors, like a HRM, or cadence or temperature sensor. Again though, if these aren't an issue for you, the 20/20x would be fine.

[scroggin]

JB Hi-fi is now selling the Etrex 30 for $295

decisions, decisions

Edit - does the GPS require an altimeter to generate an elevation profile or does it do it based on the contours? Is it just a feature of the GPS/maps you use?

[GPSGuided]

Barometric altimeter is more accurate and sensitive while extrapolation of altitude by GPS is good enough for very basic requirements.

[Strider]

JB Hi-fi is now selling the Etrex 30 for $295

decisions, decisions

Edit - does the GPS require an altimeter to generate an elevation profile or does it do it based on the contours? Is it just a feature of the GPS/maps you use?

The Etrex 30 uses an altimeter. But the cheaper models read it from the map contours. Both can create an elevation profile.

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