New Navigation Equipment

[2nutmegs]

Hi All,

Our team of engineers at UNSW is currently designing a device, which may help you to navigate your way through the bush.
The envisaged product will track the users position via GPS and allow the user to back track their steps if they become lost. This concept will be extended to allow the user to record the journey so that it may be used on a second trip or shared with the community.

Being in the early development phase, we are currently seeking input from groups on the features that the device should have and how it might be used.
Any advice or comments from you would be greatly appreciated.

For instance:
Do you think a device like this would save you time and money?
What features would benefit you on a device like this?
Do you have any previous experience of using similar products?

[photohiker]

The envisaged product will track the users position via GPS and allow the user to back track their steps if they become lost. This concept will be extended to allow the user to record the journey so that it may be used on a second trip or shared with the community.

I hope your team has done their research. Any current Garmin GPS (and probably most other brands) will already do this out of the box. It's a basic GPS navigator feature. Unless your team can come up with something original, you're going to be in for a difficult time.

Sorry to be negative, but this looks like either a lack of information on the new device, or a lack of adequate market research...

[2nutmegs]

Can I twist anyone’s arm into completing a survey?

Our team of engineers at UNSW is currently designing a device, which may help
you to navigate your way through the bush.
The envisaged product will track the users position via GPS and allow the user
to back track their steps if they become lost. This concept will be extended to
allow the user to record the journey so that it may be used on a second trip or
shared with the community.

Being in the early development phase, we are currently seeking input from groups
on the features that the device should have and how it might be used.
Any advice or comments from you would be greatly appreciated.

Just click on the following link:
http://cgi.cse.unsw.edu.au/~aakr518/cgi ... cgi?ID=BTA
thanks!

[Son of a Beach]

Please do not post the same thing multiple times in multiple forums. I've merged both of your new topics into this topic.

[Nuts]

Yer, beats me, are they inventing the common handheld gps? I'm not going to be the first to click that link... Need more info?

[tastrax]

Mmmm - pretty poor survey as well...I think you may need to expand on the idea little if you really want us to give you some useful information. How will your device differ from other GPS type devices?

Cheers - Phil

[2nutmegs]

Hi Photohiker, Nuts and Tastrax,

What have your experiences with these products been like?
Have you wished that they had any other features?
Have they ever let you down, and if so, in what way?

Thank you for your feedback

[tasadam]

I've done your survey, but for the benefit of everyone here the only thing I can see that needs improving on my GPS is the ability to pick up satellite coverage in thick forest. Then, with a map and compass and a reasonable idea of where you are to start with, it should not be necessary.
Building an electronic device such as this would only put people at risk because if they go out there in the wilderness planning on relying on an electronic gadget to find their way out, and IF that gadget failed for whatever reason (and I can think of a few - flat batteries, lost it, electronic failure, damaged...), then they would be at risk because their navigation means would be removed.
GPS's should be as a backup, not as a primary navigation tool, though they have come a long way.

Perhaps I have misunderstood and I don't fully understand what you are planning ??

[Taurë-rana]

The useful addition to a GPS would be to be able to transmit one's position in the event of an emergency.

[tastrax]

I have been a long term user of these types of gadgets and they all have faults/problems. No one device will do everything that I require. I regularly use basic gps (like etrex/h and Garmin 60), PDA's with inbuilt gps (running MapX application - GBM Mobile) as well as laptops with remote gps (direct to Mapinfo).

Here is my ultimate handheld gps type device checklist

Under $1000 (prefer under $500)
IP67 waterproofness
24 hours constant use on AA batteries
Highly Sensitive receiver for use in wet forest
Can accept my maps (both raster and vector)
Allows me to create forms for data attributes
Data can be stored in Mapinfo format (or ARC shape files)
Unlimited memory (on sd cards etc)
Daylight readable colour touchscreen


That should keep you busy for a few years. Seriously though, I was recently looking at a project where we wanted a simple waterproof GPS to record point objects with a set of about 5 attributes. We could find nothing that did this easily and cheaply.

Good luck with your project.

[Nuts]

Yes, some simple (or ideally full functioning) communication linking, emergency beacon (similar to SPOT?). Seems it depends on what your trying to achieve? More info still?

[2nutmegs]

Thank you for all your comments

We are currently working on improving the sensitivity of the receiver as you have mentioned but unfortunately the sensitivity is proportional to the cost of the device.

Power on the other hand leaves many options for improvement. We are considering incorporating a solar panel or some sort of generator. Unfortunately, nothing comes free and this will increase the size of the device.

[tasadam]

A few years ago, on the TV show "Beyond 2000" with Matt Shirvington and co, they had a feature on the GPS systems that the UK police use, and that they were 1000 times more sensitive than a standard GPS device. This was achieved by increasing the sampling rate of the signal.
It would work inside buildings and everything.
The way they explained it was that if a standard GPS is sampling a signal at a set speed, then that signal would need to be present for a certain duration. By sampling the signal 1000 times faster, there only needed to be a signal present for 1/1000 of the duration, which meant really weak signals that are ordinarily useless to a standard GPS were quite ample for these gadgets. That's as much as I can remember about it. Oh, and there was tracking - so the HQ could easily locate the exact position of each officer - I think that was its main purpose.
I can't remember but I think these devices were built into their radios.

Tasrtrax great system - all it needs is a built in PLB.

[Nuts]

Yer Sat phone, GPS, tracking and PLB backup really is where the consumer market needs to head. Medical advice can be just as important or moreso than assistance. Anything else just seems to be an interim measure. I am sure, even now, this could be done cheaper than the need to buy the units separately ($1500-2000)

[bushrunner]

I use a Garmin Forerunner 205 which costs as little as $200 and does everything you have listed and more.
I would like to see a similar device to the Garmin Forerunner but would like to to have a longer battery life for longer runs and be waterproof for triathlon and open water swimming use. Currently these devices have a battery life of only approximately 12 hours which is insufficient for longer runs. Obviously the device would still need to provide real-time speed and distance info in addition to basic navigation features.

[Nuts]

Oh yer and on size- wristwatch/fobwatch size (so it is always there with you), (and not suunto version... I had one.... for about 3 days... was like big ben). Also pretty sure solio(?) already make a small pocket solar cell to recharge it.

[bushrunner]

The Garmin Forerunner that I use is slightly larger but quite a bit lighter than my regular Casio wristwatch.

[walkinTas]

You can recharge any device with a USB connection using gadgets like the Freeloader Portable Solar Charger and this Solar Charger. Costs around 200 grms.

IMO what is needed is convergence of GPS tracking & mapping, Sat Phone/3rd Generation UMTS, and Internet Tracking Systems (for the folks at home). If you took all the gimmickry out of phones, it shouldn't be too hard to put a SIM into a GPS. The Oregon 550T hiking GPS has everything but the phone, and the iPhone 3G has a GPS but GPS gets its map data live from Google - not really helpful. The TerreStar 3G/satellite phone and the Thuraya SG-2520 both combine Satellite phones with 3G phones. The SPOT messenger has the internet tracking bit worked out.

So now someone, combine them all into one 250 gram device that retails for $300.00 - $500.00. Include PLB capability and we'll all buy one tomorrow.

[north-north-west]

Here is my ultimate handheld gps type device checklist:

Under $1000 (prefer under $500)
IP67 waterproofness
24 hours constant use on AA batteries
Highly Sensitive receiver for use in wet forest
Can accept my maps (both raster and vector)
Allows me to create forms for data attributes
Data can be stored in Mapinfo format (or ARC shape files)
Unlimited memory (on sd cards etc)
Daylight readable colour touchscreen

Solar powered
Inbuilt EPIRB
Lightweight

[Son of a Beach]

IMO what is needed is convergence of GPS tracking & mapping, Sat Phone/3rd Generation UMTS, and Internet Tracking Systems (for the folks at home). If you took all the gimmickry out of phones, it shouldn't be too hard to put a SIM into a GPS. The Oregon 550T hiking GPS has everything but the phone, and the iPhone 3G has a GPS but GPS gets its map data live from Google - not really helpful.

The iPhone can get its map data from anywhere you want if you use 3rd party applications (most of which cost AUD$1.19). The built in default 'map' program get's it's data from Google (as do any applications that use the built in map frameworks), but there's plenty of 3rd party applications that use other maps. Tom Tom seem to have the best iPhone GPS software out there ($99). I'm currently writing one that can use whatever bitmap images you can put on it as maps (currently working well, but needs more work - it tracked marked my location on the map all the way to work and back today without using the internet).

I think there are probably other handheld computers/phones that can do this too. The only two thing that's really missing from the iPhone and similar devices in this regard is the power capacity to make it reliable for long enough to be useful as an emergency device when walking for a more than just a couple of days, and the satellite phone capability.

[tastrax]

....IMO what is needed is convergence of GPS tracking & mapping, Sat Phone/3rd Generation UMTS, and Internet Tracking Systems (for the folks at home). If you took all the gimmickry out of phones, it shouldn't be too hard to put a SIM into a GPS. The Oregon 550T hiking GPS has everything but the phone...

Not sure that the Oregon has internet tracking but I get the idea that you are supporting. I know the Garmin Rhino (and Astro) had the ability to show other users in the local vicinity but that looks like it is no longer on the market..

https://buy.garmin.com/shop/shop.do?pID=6406
https://buy.garmin.com/shop/shop.do?pID=8576#astro

Of course to be truly useful any tracking would need to be satellite based in Tassie. 3G and GSM run out pretty quickly. Something similar to AISLIVE would be good... if the costs were reasonable. http://www.aislive.com/

[walkinTas]

The iPhone can get its map data from anywhere you want if you use 3rd party applications (most of which cost AUD$1.19). ...The only two thing that's really missing from the iPhone and similar devices in this regard is the power capacity to make it reliable for long enough to be useful as an emergency device when walking for a more than just a couple of days, and the satellite phone capability.

Getting closer all the time Nik. The power consumption will improve with time as new chips are released.

Not sure that the Oregon has internet tracking but I get the idea that you are supporting. Of course to be truly useful any tracking would need to be satellite based in Tassie.

No the Oregon doesn't have tracking TasTrax, and yes, the GPS and Phone have to use a satellite to be truly useful. Something like the meshed irridium network rather than just geostat equatorial orbits would probably be best.

The Garmin-Asus nuvifone G60 is another GPS/GSM phone/computer meld and its Linux based - Garmin and ASUS together. Like most of this bred it has a lot of power wasting apps that I could easily live without. I don't think this type of device is the best way to go about developing the perfect bushwalking gizmo. Its more an urban device come day walker, but still it might be worth a closer look.

The Thuraya SO-2510 sat phones has a GPS tracker that can be activated by the operator and once activated, a GPS location can be sent via SMS. It is said to be accurate to within 100 meters. This is both a GSM & Sat phone, has USB and it only weighs 130gms. The battery talk-time is too short though and the satellite is geostat. Still a good next step would be to meld an SO-2510 like device with a full-featured GPS and SD topo maps, and add no more than an extra 170 gms. This would be a much more useful bushwalking device than the fancy-pants internet ready computer phone, ipod want-to-be with GPS.

So the technology is there or there abouts. Still, it will probably be a few years yet before we see something close to the all inclusive Solar powered, touch screen driven GPS/3G phone/Sat Phone/multi-signal Tracker with built in PLB.

[Ent]

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[walkinTas]

Strangely the technology is existing at the very minitute (Imate running Oz Explorer and Tom Tom but only with 3G not Satellite phone) but Telstra/Optus have only one ruggedised phone that I spotted on Monday and that only works on the GSM network

No, Optus / Thuraya have the device now and it works on both networks.

Thuraya SG2520

# Dual Mode
# Satellite & Triband GSM
# Voice & SMS
# 1.3MP camera
# Bluetooth, Infra-red & USB
# Enhanced GPS
# Optus SimPoint Tracking capability

It just lacks the interactive mapping and logging capability of a fully featured GPS. Technology wise this is another circuit board, a few chips, and some software. It is soooooo close.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not telling you to rush out and buy one. I'm just discussing how close the technology is to delivering very useful functionality.

[photohiker]

To be really useful, we would need better satellite coverage than Thuraya which relies on a single satellite for Australia.

This is one of the issues with both Thuraya and Spot, as neither of them utilises the superior Iridium network.

[Ent]

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[Nuts]

I been looking into Thuraya recently though hesitate for that reason, I have (even) noticed some problems with the Iridium. Be interested in hearing how it goes. I had thought that the cheaper Sat phone only option (with separate NextG) would be a better option? Does it auto switch to GSM?

[photohiker]

I have (even) noticed some problems with the Iridium.

This is not surprising, no system is perfect but I suspect that Iridium is an order of magnitude more reliable than the alternative. Iridium does impress due to the number of satellites in orbit (66) and the provision of in-orbit spares that can be moved into position to replace a failing unit (as happened earlier this year when there was an impact between some Russian space junk and one of the iridium satellites. Also, having satellites in low earth orbit rather than geo-synchronous (Thuraya) means that there is a good chance that at least some network will be available for short periods in difficult locations. Each satellite travels horizon to horizon in 10 minutes or so.

[walkinTas]

Just a small correction to my earlier post. The SO-2510 is 130g but no GSM, the SO-2520 is 190g with GSM. One hassle with both phones - they are not waterproof.

A single satellite is especially problematic for Tassie due to the low angle of signal meaning large communication blackout shadows caused by mountains. I assume that the satellite must be in geosynchronous orbit being a single one so some time lag might be noticeable in voice communications as well. (at least 36,000 up plus 36,000km down against 300,000 km speed of light).

I have a NextG phone - ZTE F165. I find it doesn't get a good signal unless I am up fairly high and have reasonable line of site. Most river valleys have no signal at all, so a satellite shadow would be status-quo. Yes, the Thuraya 3 satellite is in geostat orbit at 98.5° E at an altitude of 35.7Mm (above Singapore) - so a long way from Tassie. Of course the geosync orbit means it has to be above the equator and therefore low on our horizon. As phothiker points out, Irridium has a big advantage - polar orbits - but of course that requires a mesh network of lots of satellites so that at least one is above the horizon at any time. 66 LEO satellites sounds impressive, but that is what is needed to cover the whole planet all of the time. You still have a single satellite over Tassie most of the time. Remember they are only at 780km so their horizon is short and you typically get 4 to 15 minutes coverage per satellite. You can track them live here.

I been looking into Thuraya recently though hesitate for that reason, I have (even) noticed some problems with the Iridium. Be interested in hearing how it goes. I had thought that the cheaper Sat phone only option (with separate NextG) would be a better option? Does it auto switch to GSM?

Like you Nuts I've been looking at the Thuraya, but if I must carry a phone, I'd like to carry just one, so I'm waiting for Optus to improve its GSM coverage in Tassie which is currently poorer than NextG - they are getting there slowly. I'd love to see an affordable robust GSM/Sat phone on the irridium/next G networks. The thing about technology is that one just has to jump in somewhere or be always waiting for the next "improvement". Irridium Next promises the possibility of ubiquitous wireless networking at 1.0Mbps. The fun starts around 2014.

Nuts, your question is answered in the review at Good Gear Guide. The user chooses to connect to either GSM or Satellite.

At the risk of repeating myself, the technology is there or there abouts, but the promise is much more than the current reality. The guys and girls at UNSW would do us all a service if they actually advanced the technology to the next level - as opposed to reinventing an existing wheel. And IMO that requires both invention and technology convergence that will allow new (i.e. not yet thought of) applications of the technology.

[tas-man]

Interesting reading the thread and different people experiences.
<BIG SNIP>
(PS Maps and compass still would be carried as trusting your safety to electronics sounds just a bit too risky)

Have you flown in an Airbus, you "risk taker"?