Bushfire season 2019-2020

Bushwalking topics that are not location specific.
Forum rules
The place for bushwalking topics that are not location specific.

Re: Bushfire season 2019-2020

Postby north-north-west » Wed 30 Oct, 2019 4:06 pm

ghosta wrote:On what basis do you accuse authorities of giving fires in world heritage areas VERY LOW priority? Just because they are unable to safely extinguish such fires does not mean they are not given every possible consideration. You have much to learn about fires thats for sure!


Have you read the reports into the last two major fire seasons in Tassie?
"Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens."
User avatar
north-north-west
Lagarostrobos franklinii
Lagarostrobos franklinii
 
Posts: 12378
Joined: Thu 14 May, 2009 7:36 pm
Location: The Asylum
ASSOCIATED ORGANISATIONS: Social Misfits Anonymous
Region: Tasmania

Re: Bushfire season 2019-2020

Postby CBee » Wed 30 Oct, 2019 4:28 pm

To me, that is a catastrophe.

Perhaps people in charge to make decisions don't fully know or understand the gravity of such disasters.
CBee
Athrotaxis cupressoides
Athrotaxis cupressoides
 
Posts: 155
Joined: Fri 21 Dec, 2018 7:18 am
Region: Queensland

Re: Bushfire season 2019-2020

Postby Warin » Wed 30 Oct, 2019 5:11 pm

ghosta wrote:On what basis do you accuse authorities of giving fires in world heritage areas VERY LOW priority?


I read recently of a brigade ordered out of a township. The towns people were there protecting their homes..
The fires refused to go and the 'people in remote command' had to change their minds and order in more resources.

Decisions made at the command centre are not always the 'best' decisions. These days there may be too much concern over things other than the immediate fire. Such as costs, 'safety of fire fighters'... things other than actually putting the fires out.
User avatar
Warin
Phyllocladus aspleniifolius
Phyllocladus aspleniifolius
 
Posts: 973
Joined: Sat 11 Nov, 2017 8:02 am
Region: New South Wales

Re: Bushfire season 2019-2020

Postby Aardvark » Wed 30 Oct, 2019 5:20 pm

In reference to Antarctic Beech stands around SEQ, such as those around Mt.Barney. Some people i think mistakenly refer to these trees being thousands of years old. The species is thousands of years old, but the very trees there now aren't likely that old. There have been fires through these areas in the past. I believe Mt.Barney area had massive areas burnt in 1979.
However, i don't mean to take anything away from the claim that some authorities have their priorities screwed up. I bristle at the idea that they are authorities at all. Just fools in charge at the time.
Ever on the search for a one ended stick.
Aardvark
Athrotaxis cupressoides
Athrotaxis cupressoides
 
Posts: 285
Joined: Sat 28 Jul, 2012 6:15 am
Region: Queensland
Gender: Male

Re: Bushfire season 2019-2020

Postby Moondog55 » Thu 31 Oct, 2019 5:39 am

It is well past the time when Australia as a whole made a decision about our long term survival as a country, without making a real effort to make this continent drought proof we are headed for oblivion far too soon
Ve are too soon old und too late schmart
Moondog55
Lagarostrobos franklinii
Lagarostrobos franklinii
 
Posts: 9421
Joined: Thu 03 Dec, 2009 4:15 pm
Location: Norlane Geelong Victoria Australia
Region: Victoria
Gender: Male

Re: Bushfire season 2019-2020

Postby Warin » Thu 31 Oct, 2019 7:33 am

I don't think 'we' are going to get 'drought proof' or 'fire proof' ...
I think 'we' 'drought tolerant' and 'fire tolerant'. These things will always cause some harm, 'we' need to be able to cope with that.
User avatar
Warin
Phyllocladus aspleniifolius
Phyllocladus aspleniifolius
 
Posts: 973
Joined: Sat 11 Nov, 2017 8:02 am
Region: New South Wales

Re: Bushfire season 2019-2020

Postby Moondog55 » Thu 31 Oct, 2019 8:04 am

I do think you are wrong there and that we could Geo-engineer the continent to make it drought proof in about 30 years for about that same cost as our new fleet of submarines.
Ve are too soon old und too late schmart
Moondog55
Lagarostrobos franklinii
Lagarostrobos franklinii
 
Posts: 9421
Joined: Thu 03 Dec, 2009 4:15 pm
Location: Norlane Geelong Victoria Australia
Region: Victoria
Gender: Male

Re: Bushfire season 2019-2020

Postby dalehikes » Thu 31 Oct, 2019 8:15 am

David Attenborough said it 20 years ago. Population growth is the number 1 concern on this earth, as it drives consumerism of everything.

Australia is approaching its upper limit of sustainable population as we already can't maintain adequate water, let alone living in harmony with the environment.

We have a perfect amount of livability and infrastructure for 25 million.

Australia CANNOT support constant growth.
dalehikes
Atherosperma moschatum
Atherosperma moschatum
 
Posts: 53
Joined: Mon 04 Mar, 2019 11:33 am
Region: Queensland
Gender: Male

Re: Bushfire season 2019-2020

Postby Warin » Thu 31 Oct, 2019 9:50 am

dalehikes wrote:Australia CANNOT support constant growth.


The world cannot support constant population growth.
User avatar
Warin
Phyllocladus aspleniifolius
Phyllocladus aspleniifolius
 
Posts: 973
Joined: Sat 11 Nov, 2017 8:02 am
Region: New South Wales

Re: Bushfire season 2019-2020

Postby Heremeahappy1 » Thu 31 Oct, 2019 10:52 pm

Population numbers will never qualify 'perfect' or 'ideal'. 5 Mil can inflict same impact as 500 mil. These are first world problems. If you have the time, resources and capacity to recognise global issues you're living a life where you are well fed, watered, enjoy health care, nutrition, education disposable income for hobbies. Life is good. Fatten up, buy developing nation products and consume as we all do. All ecosystems will self regulate, have no fear. Mother nature will fix it for us - she'll flush us all away. Or not. And that is also ok.
Change starts at home, look to individual inputs, small... incremental but ultimately invaluable.
Heremeahappy1
Athrotaxis cupressoides
Athrotaxis cupressoides
 
Posts: 150
Joined: Tue 21 Nov, 2017 6:26 am
Location: Gippsland
Region: Victoria
Gender: Male

Re: Bushfire season 2019-2020

Postby north-north-west » Fri 01 Nov, 2019 6:04 am

Heremeahappy1 wrote:Population numbers will never qualify 'perfect' or 'ideal'. 5 Mil can inflict same impact as 500 mil. These are first world problems. If you have the time, resources and capacity to recognise global issues you're living a life where you are well fed, watered, enjoy health care, nutrition, education disposable income for hobbies. Life is good. Fatten up, buy developing nation products and consume as we all do. All ecosystems will self regulate, have no fear. Mother nature will fix it for us - she'll flush us all away. Or not. And that is also ok.


So . . . ignore all the species we kill off in the meantime and just ignore the problem because it hasn't killed us (yet) and there are people worse off somewhere else. Such a mature outlook. It's no more than than a mashup of "Bugger you Jack, I'm all right" and whataboutery.
"Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens."
User avatar
north-north-west
Lagarostrobos franklinii
Lagarostrobos franklinii
 
Posts: 12378
Joined: Thu 14 May, 2009 7:36 pm
Location: The Asylum
ASSOCIATED ORGANISATIONS: Social Misfits Anonymous
Region: Tasmania

Re: Bushfire season 2019-2020

Postby Heremeahappy1 » Fri 01 Nov, 2019 5:09 pm

Three points; population itself does not equal disaster, Aus is at a 'perfect' population level - yeah sure.
Consumer demand from 1st world countries undoubtedly over represent environmental impact and lastly, I have faith in the planets ability to maintain an equalibrium by balancing the books. It'll be alright in the long run. I dont condone ignorance or species extinction, Ive been putting out fires for years.
I do maintain personal lifestyle and consumer behaviour can provide positive rolemodelling. Mature... dont confuse this with age, we've all had our time to provide positive impacts. Just know youve spent yours well and she'll be alright Jack.
Heremeahappy1
Athrotaxis cupressoides
Athrotaxis cupressoides
 
Posts: 150
Joined: Tue 21 Nov, 2017 6:26 am
Location: Gippsland
Region: Victoria
Gender: Male

November 2019 Fires

Postby LachlanB » Sat 09 Nov, 2019 4:55 pm

So, I've been morosely watching the RFS website and all the blobs of the different fires in north-east NSW getting bigger, and bigger and bigger.
18,153ha burnt in Mt Kaputar NP
2,232ha in Nightcap NP (and still badly out of control)
17,432ha on the edge of Washpool NP
44,753ha in Gibraltar Rang and Nymboida NP
89,750ha across Chaelundi NP, Guy Fawkes River NP and Nymboi-Binderay NP
27,473ha extra in Nymboi-Binderay NP
113,900ha extra in Guy Fawkes River NP (this has been going for a month now..)
10,470ha in Crowdy Bay NP
14,039ha in Tapin Tops NP
11,077ha on the edge of Cottan-Bimbang NP
62,145ha between Cottam-Bimbang and Werrikimbe NP
124,936ha across Carrai NP and Oxley Wild Rivers NP
49,024ha in Willi Willi NP
And sundry extra smaller fires in NPs and state forests.

This is at least 585,384ha of forest burnt. 5853.85km2. This is an area about the size of Kosciuszko NP. *All* of Kosciuszko NP. The only major national parks between Newcastle and Ballina that haven't been badly burnt are Myall Lakes, Barrington Tops and New England NPs.

This is an absolute catastrophe, are we looking at a 2003-fires like event for Northern NSW? With the rest of spring and all of summer still to come? :cry: :cry: :cry:

Just how many precious places are going to be lost in this?
LachlanB
Athrotaxis cupressoides
Athrotaxis cupressoides
 
Posts: 380
Joined: Mon 21 Apr, 2014 5:07 pm
Region: New South Wales
Gender: Male

Re: November 2019 Fires

Postby GregR » Sat 09 Nov, 2019 8:25 pm

Having found myself smack in the middle of this I find it extremely sad. Living as I do in Victoria, I have a tendency to focus more on local issues and problems. Suddenly, it's all to real and has really shaken me to the core and made more aware of the impact this is having on the people, environment and wildlife.
I spent last night at a refuge centre in Taree with a few hundred others plus pets as well as rescued Joey's.
The fires are literally surrounding me for the last few days. Drove up to Port Macquarie yesterday and thought I'd entered the 7 gates of hell.
This is an unfolding tragedy and my thoughts are with everyone involved .
Attachments
IMG_20191109_151011.jpg
Looking across Black Head beach
IMG_20191108_142048.jpg
Heading into Port Macquarie
User avatar
GregR
Athrotaxis cupressoides
Athrotaxis cupressoides
 
Posts: 495
Joined: Mon 07 Jan, 2013 11:24 am
Region: Victoria
Gender: Male

Re: November 2019 Fires

Postby north-north-west » Sun 10 Nov, 2019 11:14 am

I know we're not supposed to be getting political, but . . . budgets for both the RFS and NSW equivalent of the MFB have been slashed, as well as that for other emergency services. The personnel of at least one rural station have recently paid for fuel for their trucks out of their own pockets because the station's fuel card couldn't cover it. State government has refused to pay for overtime and refused to allow city services to assist. The federal government - and we'll leave aside their refusal to act on climate change - has refused assistance offered from the USA, and the only action by the PM has been to offer "thoughts and prayers" on Twitter.

Fuel reduction burning was not possible in most of these places because of the lack of funding and the lack of suitable conditions over the last year.

All these fires, so much damage, lives lost, and it isn't even summer yet! And it's only going to keep getting worse.
"Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens."
User avatar
north-north-west
Lagarostrobos franklinii
Lagarostrobos franklinii
 
Posts: 12378
Joined: Thu 14 May, 2009 7:36 pm
Location: The Asylum
ASSOCIATED ORGANISATIONS: Social Misfits Anonymous
Region: Tasmania

Re: November 2019 Fires

Postby peregrinator » Sun 10 Nov, 2019 11:33 am

Perhaps it's now time when 'getting political' is a vital necessity. While reading all of the preceding posts on an earlier thread, and then absorbing LachlanB's alarming data at the top of this page, I've been pondering one fundamental question. How is it possible that a supposedly advanced nation still relies on volunteers to fight rural fires? We don't expect suburbanites to put fires out. What's the #%&*^$@ difference?
peregrinator
Athrotaxis selaginoides
Athrotaxis selaginoides
 
Posts: 1300
Joined: Fri 15 Apr, 2011 2:50 pm
Region: Victoria

Re: November 2019 Fires

Postby peregrinator » Sun 10 Nov, 2019 2:16 pm

Clarification required from me.

(1) I was not implying that volunteers provide a less than adequate service compared with professionals. Far from it, in fact.

(2) I realise that, at least in Victoria and perhaps in other states as well, the boundary between so-called rural and metropolitan zones was drawn up many decades ago. So I was incorrect in referring to suburbanites not being involved in fire-fighting. Melbourne's geographical centre is, I think, roughly where one edge of this boundary occurs.

(3) Related to both of those points, what I am bamboozled by is why is funding so lacking for an essential task, apparently becoming more urgent with every passing summer? (Oh yeah, we gotta splurge on armaments to please the US of A.)
peregrinator
Athrotaxis selaginoides
Athrotaxis selaginoides
 
Posts: 1300
Joined: Fri 15 Apr, 2011 2:50 pm
Region: Victoria

Re: November 2019 Fires

Postby tastrax » Sun 10 Nov, 2019 2:20 pm

peregrinator wrote:We don't expect suburbanites to put fires out. What's the #%&*^$@ difference?


I think the time is rapidly approaching when suburbanites WILL be expected to do more and be more responsible of their nearby surroundings, including their own backyards/acreages/bush blocks. Already the fire services are starting to say we may not get to you in the event of a major fire in these conditions.

I just hate seeing folks on the news throwing buckets of water on approaching fires when a good supply of water and hoses and pumps is what is required in many bushland fringe areas. A 20 metre firebreak might help on your back fence, but its not a panacea for all fires. Fire preparedness is a multi pronged approach and is everyone's responsibility.
Cheers - Phil

OSM Mapper
User avatar
tastrax
Athrotaxis selaginoides
Athrotaxis selaginoides
 
Posts: 1815
Joined: Fri 28 Mar, 2008 6:25 pm
Location: What3words - epic.constable.downplayed
ASSOCIATED ORGANISATIONS: RETIRED! - Parks and Wildlife Service
Region: Tasmania

Re: November 2019 Fires

Postby Warin » Sun 10 Nov, 2019 2:41 pm

tastrax wrote:
peregrinator wrote:We don't expect suburbanites to put fires out. What's the #%&*^$@ difference?

I think the time is rapidly approaching when suburbanites WILL be expected to do more and be more responsible of their nearby surroundings, including their own backyards/acreages/bush blocks.

I can handle my own property. But not my next door neighbour .. it is a 'National Park' .. and a real fire hazard with over growth. 40 years ago you could walk through it .. now you have no hope.
User avatar
Warin
Phyllocladus aspleniifolius
Phyllocladus aspleniifolius
 
Posts: 973
Joined: Sat 11 Nov, 2017 8:02 am
Region: New South Wales

Re: November 2019 Fires

Postby north-north-west » Sun 10 Nov, 2019 3:39 pm

peregrinator wrote:... what I am bamboozled by is why is funding so lacking for an essential task, apparently becoming more urgent with every passing summer? (Oh yeah, we gotta splurge on armaments to please the US of A.)


How much was pledged to assist with the Mars project? Would have covered the deficit in emergency services funding nicely.
Ditto money pledged for the Captain Cook monument, and all the War Memorial/Museum expansions and additions. There are people dying, loosing homes, NPs being burnt out, but statues and buildings and submarines and pointless space programs are more important. :roll:
"Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens."
User avatar
north-north-west
Lagarostrobos franklinii
Lagarostrobos franklinii
 
Posts: 12378
Joined: Thu 14 May, 2009 7:36 pm
Location: The Asylum
ASSOCIATED ORGANISATIONS: Social Misfits Anonymous
Region: Tasmania

Re: November 2019 Fires

Postby LachlanB » Mon 11 Nov, 2019 5:40 pm

That looks pretty horrific Greg, hope everything is going ok for you.

All of NSW and the ACT is covered by a Total Fire Ban now, and most of the national parks in NSW are closed. The Hunter, Greater Sydney and Illawarra regions have been assessed as having Catastrophic fire danger. Hope tomorrow isn't as bad as it's shaping up to be..
LachlanB
Athrotaxis cupressoides
Athrotaxis cupressoides
 
Posts: 380
Joined: Mon 21 Apr, 2014 5:07 pm
Region: New South Wales
Gender: Male

Re: November 2019 Fires

Postby rcaffin » Mon 11 Nov, 2019 7:56 pm

but statues and buildings and submarines and pointless space programs are more important. :roll:

I think you miss the point here.
Statues and submarines are essential 'nation building' activities ... and incidentally good photo-ops for the politicians.
(For those who do not know me, pls read this with extreme sarcasm and cynicism switched on.)

Cheers
Roger
User avatar
rcaffin
Phyllocladus aspleniifolius
Phyllocladus aspleniifolius
 
Posts: 878
Joined: Thu 17 Jul, 2008 3:46 pm

Re: November 2019 Fires

Postby Neo » Mon 11 Nov, 2019 8:06 pm

rcaffin wrote:
but statues and buildings and submarines and pointless space programs are more important. :roll:

I think you miss the point here.
Statues and submarines are essential 'nation building' activities ... and incidentally good photo-ops for the politicians.
(For those who do not know me, pls read this with extreme sarcasm and cynicism switched on.)

Cheers
Roger


Best to push on with land clearing and the Adani mine (more miners ready to follow in its footsteps).
We should also encourage more broadacre farming in the dry floodpains.

Not hemp, heaven forbid! Cotton and wheat.

Hey, why not capitalise on the northeren areas. They flood once a year, in theory.
Neo
Athrotaxis selaginoides
Athrotaxis selaginoides
 
Posts: 1425
Joined: Wed 31 Aug, 2016 4:53 pm
Location: Port Macquarie NSW
Region: New South Wales
Gender: Male

Re: November 2019 Fires

Postby Lophophaps » Tue 12 Nov, 2019 5:48 am

With climate change, it seems that drought and bushfires will become more frequent and more intense than in the past. More funding for fire research and making regional brigades staff, not volunteers is part of the solution. Apart from that, what can be done? Fuel reduction burning? Firebreaks? Something else? If anyone has links to these options, please post them.

Bear with me on the following - some is finance-babble. The federal government stripped $200 million from a financial regulator, ASIC, since 2013. Tony Abbott cut $120 million from ASIC and has no regrets.
https://www.afr.com/politics/coalition- ... 023-h16z2z
Another finance regulator APRA also had funding cuts, $23 million since 2014.
https://www.afr.com/companies/financial ... 716-p527p6

The result is the Banking Royal Commission identifying banking misconduct which has cost customers $200 billion
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-08-19/ ... t/11422376

There is a financial metric called return on investment. Invest $10 and get $12 back, a good return. For finance, the federal government has saved around $200 million but cost around $200 billion. In simpler terms, this means save aka invest $200, lose $200,000. It's hard to see that the federal government has economic credibility. And this has been going on for some time, since the resource boom gains were wasted in tax cuts. Norway invested North Sea Oil profits and is now very rich.

This is where we are at with Australian bushfires. Lack of funding to RFS, TFS, CFA et al is saving money but costing a great deal more in property destroyed by fire, loss of life, community trauma and more. The morons making these policy decisions have the IQ of small rock. Many of them believe that climate emergency - was climate change - is still subject to confirmation.

As is often the case with governments, action that is at odds with their ideology will only be taken when the facts become so overwhelming and public opinion is so strong that they have to act. This was the case for same sex marriage and the Banking Royal Commission. Hopefully, bushfires are next.

north-north-west wrote:I know we're not supposed to be getting political, but . . . budgets for both the RFS and NSW equivalent of the MFB have been slashed, as well as that for other emergency services.


peregrinator wrote:Perhaps it's now time when 'getting political' is a vital necessity. While reading all of the preceding posts on an earlier thread, and then absorbing LachlanB's alarming data at the top of this page, I've been pondering one fundamental question. How is it possible that a supposedly advanced nation still relies on volunteers to fight rural fires? We don't expect suburbanites to put fires out. What's the #%&*^$@ difference?


Strongly agree.
User avatar
Lophophaps
Auctorita modica
Auctorita modica
 
Posts: 2827
Joined: Wed 09 Nov, 2011 9:45 am
Region: Victoria
Gender: Male

Re: Bushfire season 2019-2020

Postby potato » Wed 13 Nov, 2019 11:25 am

Well that went a bit off topic.

At first I thought this was a Betoota article, but I guess he does say some crazy things:

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-n ... _clipboard
potato
Athrotaxis cupressoides
Athrotaxis cupressoides
 
Posts: 278
Joined: Thu 28 Jan, 2016 1:06 pm
Region: Australian Capital Territory
Gender: Male

Re: November 2019 Fires

Postby tastrax » Wed 13 Nov, 2019 5:58 pm

Warin wrote:
tastrax wrote:
peregrinator wrote:We don't expect suburbanites to put fires out. What's the #%&*^$@ difference?

I think the time is rapidly approaching when suburbanites WILL be expected to do more and be more responsible of their nearby surroundings, including their own backyards/acreages/bush blocks.

I can handle my own property. But not my next door neighbour .. it is a 'National Park' .. and a real fire hazard with over growth. 40 years ago you could walk through it .. now you have no hope.


Just remember in these latest fires there have been fires start many kilometres ahead of the firefront (embers carried in the air) so its not just your neighbour that shares the responsibility. Most park managers will welcome neighbours involvement in park management and planning, including support of fuel/hazard reduction but also remember the parks are often there for conservation values which may be lost through regular burning.
Cheers - Phil

OSM Mapper
User avatar
tastrax
Athrotaxis selaginoides
Athrotaxis selaginoides
 
Posts: 1815
Joined: Fri 28 Mar, 2008 6:25 pm
Location: What3words - epic.constable.downplayed
ASSOCIATED ORGANISATIONS: RETIRED! - Parks and Wildlife Service
Region: Tasmania

Re: Bushfire season 2019-2020

Postby Warin » Thu 14 Nov, 2019 8:41 am

If we can learn for the Aborigines we may be much better off.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-09-18/ ... e/10258140
User avatar
Warin
Phyllocladus aspleniifolius
Phyllocladus aspleniifolius
 
Posts: 973
Joined: Sat 11 Nov, 2017 8:02 am
Region: New South Wales

Re: Bushfire season 2019-2020

Postby tastrax » Thu 14 Nov, 2019 2:25 pm

....however they will need a MASSIVE funding injection....

"The current funding we have allows for about 15 days of field work, which includes preparation as well as burning," said Glenn Willcox, CEO of the Bega LALC.
Cheers - Phil

OSM Mapper
User avatar
tastrax
Athrotaxis selaginoides
Athrotaxis selaginoides
 
Posts: 1815
Joined: Fri 28 Mar, 2008 6:25 pm
Location: What3words - epic.constable.downplayed
ASSOCIATED ORGANISATIONS: RETIRED! - Parks and Wildlife Service
Region: Tasmania

Re: Bushfire season 2019-2020

Postby Warin » Thu 14 Nov, 2019 3:42 pm

They need to teach others how to do it... and even that will require funding ... jobs and growth.
User avatar
Warin
Phyllocladus aspleniifolius
Phyllocladus aspleniifolius
 
Posts: 973
Joined: Sat 11 Nov, 2017 8:02 am
Region: New South Wales

Re: Bushfire season 2019-2020

Postby potato » Fri 15 Nov, 2019 6:59 am

That might work in certain areas, but you cant cut-and-paste that approach across different landscapes and vegetation types.
potato
Athrotaxis cupressoides
Athrotaxis cupressoides
 
Posts: 278
Joined: Thu 28 Jan, 2016 1:06 pm
Region: Australian Capital Territory
Gender: Male

PreviousNext

Return to Bushwalking Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests