Grim story of Snowy Mountains' cannibal horses

[mattburga]

Story by some bushwalkers on what they UN expectantly found while hiking in The Snowy Mountains, and the impact of horses in parks in general.

Please be aware there are photos of dead horses in that link.

https://theconversation.com/the-grim-st ... rses-31691

[maddog]

You might find this interesting too

[geoskid]

Story by some bushwalkers on what they UN expectantly found while hiking in The Snowy Mountains, and the impact of horses in parks in general.

Please be aware there are photos of dead horses in that link.

https://theconversation.com/the-grim-st ... rses-31691

After reading the article Matt, what do you think of the Authors use of the word cannibal in the title of the article?

It don't impress me much.

[Strider]

How would you refer to it geoskid?

[GBW]

Even horses hate horses!

[mattburga]

I posted the story because I thought it interesting to *some in the walking community about the effects of national parks/govt policy, especially with the popular hunting in national parks topic also on this subforum. I value this forum and check it daily but infrequently post.

I didn't write the headline, I just pasted. I don't see why people are thinking it's click bait when horses are actually eating horses.

My post number on this forum has been low over the years so I doubt you could accuse me of trying to gain attention or anything like that. If admins think the post is inappropriate they can delete it and I'll go back to infrequently contributing with a lesson learned.

[DarrenM]

My guess is they were simply eating the grass found in the intestines.

[maddog]

The photos, purporting to prove cannibalism, show nothing more than a couple of brumbies sniffing a carcass. The authors project death rates (by starvation, cannibalism, etc) to exceed actual populations. Do the 'cannibal' brumbies in the photo really look on the brink of starvation?

A career defining headline for the two ecologists?

[icefest]

I posted the story because I thought it interesting to *some in the walking community about the effects of national parks/govt policy, especially with the popular hunting in national parks topic also on this subforum. I value this forum and check it daily but infrequently post.

I didn't write the headline, I just pasted. I don't see why people are thinking it's click bait when horses are actually eating horses.

My post number on this forum has been low over the years so I doubt you could accuse me of trying to gain attention or anything like that. If admins think the post is inappropriate they can delete it and I'll go back to infrequently contributing with a lesson learned.

I don't think there is anything wrong with the way you posted it. No personal attacks and no flaming.
The problem is that it's a contentious issue with many strong personal feelings both for and against.

The photos, purporting to prove cannibalism, show nothing more than a couple of brumbies sniffing a carcass.

They say in the video that they tried to get photos but that the horses ran off. They do not say that the photos prove cannibalism, but rather that these were the only photos they managed to take.

The authors project death rates (by starvation, cannibalism, etc) to exceed actual populations.

You must have missed the bit where this is projected over the next ten years.

Do the 'cannibal' brumbies in the photo really look on the brink of starvation?
A career defining headline for the two ecologists?

I'm no expert at assessing body condition, but from this and the fact the the ribs are visible in the horses on screen I'd say they have a body condition of 4, moderately thin. I'm not sure what condition horses should be in by the middle of winter as I don't have the time to research journal articles about the topic. I do think that these horses do not look to be "on the brink" but they are certainly not well fed.

[photohiker]

http://www.fishpond.com.au/Books/Deadly ... 1590480038

[GPSGuided]

Seriously, it's all natural. Unless one is willing to completely remove this introduced species, starvation/cannibalism are hardly a basis for expending resources to cull. That's natural selection.

[Nuts]

The photos, purporting to prove cannibalism, show nothing more than a couple of brumbies sniffing a carcass. The authors project death rates (by starvation, cannibalism, etc) to exceed actual populations. Do the 'cannibal' brumbies in the photo really look on the brink of starvation?

A career defining headline for the two ecologists?

It's a poor word to use, cannibalism. The authors do question 'what had done that?' 'foxes..?' etc - it's a pity, straight away cannibalism is the headline, detracts from the focus of what they're suggesting.. What they describe is just opportunity surely?, a chance for a nibble (technically not cannibalism?).. so they ate party digested grasses.

Not much can be made of the one experience..? the horse/s may have even just been sick. What is interesting is the concept, Murder (or dispatch), a certain number in the short term or the job will just get more distasteful (and obviously increasingly expensive).. made 'crueler' by managing the issue for sentiment? The point could have been made more clearly without mentioning cannibals.

[Kainas]

:lol:
My guess is they were simply eating the grass found in the intestines.

My thoughts too.

[maddog]

The problem is that it's a contentious issue with many strong personal feelings both for and against.

Not from me. I don't like horses. But if the case is to be made for aerial culling it should be done without pushing exaggerated population numbers and attempting to manufacture a crisis with sensational nonsense. At this point the broader prosecution of the case may be considered, by the reasonable observer, as misleading. Some might say downright dishonest. Such tactics will not secure the support of concerned interest groups.

They say in the video that they tried to get photos but that the horses ran off. They do not say that the photos prove cannibalism, but rather that these were the only photos they managed to take.

The scholars published a remarkable 'eyewitness' account of brumbies engaged in cannibalism. Without this, it is unlikely their 'report' would have been of any interest to anyone. But they fail to produce evidence to substantiate their claim. Given they chose to publish such claims without evidence it is fair to hold them to account and the report in contempt.

You must have missed the bit where this is projected over the next ten years.

I did not miss that bit. The whole report is unconvincing.

I'm no expert at assessing body condition, but...

The scholars claim:

The first inkling we had that all was not well was our observation that these animals were emaciated, with ribs and bony hips protruding, skin sagging.

I'm with you here icefest. This description does not appear to match the cannibals in the photographs. Comparing the photographs with the chart below, a condition description of moderate to good would seem fair. Not bad considering we may assume that the photos were taken towards the end of winter. High protein diet perhaps?

condition.jpg (67.91 KiB) Viewed 13295 times

[Nuts]

(your link was given in another recent topic matt, and some attitude may follow from there, don't be too upset)

The concept is otherwise quite simple and easy to accept, regardless. Not managed, at some stage there will be too many horses!
Why does it matter what they eat people eat each other in dire times!

As that happens ('too many horses') the public will see a growing number in poor condition.
This won't be allowed to continue.. after a point.. as management seems to be going- the public won't allow it.

But the problem is compound, the figures are just not that important.
It can be seen that the managers (perhaps on behalf of minority of users) are responsible for the horses that breed from now, their offspring.. and as will happen, lots of unnecessary death.

[mattburga]

got it. Thanks Nuts, Icefest.

[geoskid]

How would you refer to it geoskid?

Hey Strider, G'day,

I think I would have just restricted myself to purely describing what I saw, without jumping to conclusions.
If these guys really thought they witnessed cannibalism in horses, that is a bigger story than what they actually wrote about. Motivated reasoning- there should be no surprise that it happens in academia. Meh.

[geoskid]

I posted the story because I thought it interesting to *some in the walking community about the effects of national parks/govt policy, especially with the popular hunting in national parks topic also on this subforum. I value this forum and check it daily but infrequently post.

I didn't write the headline, I just pasted. I don't see why people are thinking it's click bait when horses are actually eating horses.

My post number on this forum has been low over the years so I doubt you could accuse me of trying to gain attention or anything like that. If admins think the post is inappropriate they can delete it and I'll go back to infrequently contributing with a lesson learned.

G'day Matt,

There is no problem with posting what you did.
There is another thread on here about this which I have read and have stayed away from.
My Question? - of course you dont have to answer it - we are just dribbling here really.