Gundungura Map - Now Available

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Gundungura Map - Now Available

Postby DaveNoble » Thu 16 Nov, 2017 9:11 pm

I have mentioned in earlier posts that the Gundungura Guide Book and the Nelly's Glen Sketch Map produced in the 1960/70's by Sydney University Rover Crew have been placed in the public domain. Thanks to Dr Geoff Ford, I have recently received scanned copies of the Gundungura Sketch Map in its first three editions. The maps were scanned and saved as pdf's. I have converted them to jpg files to reduce their size and make downloading easier.

Copies can be downloaded from http://www.david-noble.net/SURC/GundunguraGuide.html

Many thanks to Geoff Ford for making these copies available.

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Re: Gundungura Map - Now Available

Postby ribuck » Thu 16 Nov, 2017 11:54 pm

That's an excellent quality scan; thanks Geoff and Dave.
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Re: Gundungura Map - Now Available

Postby LachlanB » Fri 17 Nov, 2017 12:52 pm

Thank you so much Dave and Geoff for making this available! The map may not be new, but it's a fantastic resource.

Mind if I ask what the difference between the three different editions is?
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Re: Gundungura Map - Now Available

Postby DaveNoble » Fri 17 Nov, 2017 12:55 pm

The main (only?) difference is the nomenclature.
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Re: Gundungura Map - Now Available

Postby ribuck » Fri 17 Nov, 2017 7:12 pm

There was also a fourth edition (1973), the metric edition with the grid in kilometres, the heights in metres, and the scale changed to 1:33333 (3cm=1km). I'm happy to donate my copy if someone wants to scan it.

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Re: Gundungura Map - Now Available

Postby geford » Wed 22 Nov, 2017 12:07 pm

Gundungura (aka Kanangra) / ‘Kowmung Country’ topic:
I had responded to earlier posts in a thread about the 1960s SURC project, by renouncing copyright of our publications so they can be shared in the public domain, and Dave Noble has responded. For comparison, some revised legacy maps by Myles Dunphy have been reprinted for purchase, and his formidable archives are available for research studies.

It is confusing in this forum to find that on 4 Nov 2017 “Allchin” transferred that topic to the Nelly's Glen thread. (Be aware that in 1950s, like me, Dunphy used spelling “Nelly”.) [Allchin”? That’s an antique steam engine, isn’t it?]
And that’s my ‘Last Post’.
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Re: Gundungura Map - Now Available

Postby geford » Sat 23 Dec, 2017 4:09 pm

Coming back from Nelly's Glen topic to topic of Gundungura (aka Kanangra) / ‘Kowmung Country’:
27 Nov was obviously not my last post: my contributions to bushwalking in 1950s-1960s seem to be worrying some readers whose knowledge of those times 60 years later they want to be better than those who participated then.

Some of contributions to this “Forum” make me wonder about my response to requests whereby I renounced copyright and released 1960's material in Public Domain!
On Wed 20 Dec juxtaposer concluded a post with “Geof it’s time to admit you got this one wrong.” Actually, we (SURC members) had never ‘got this one right’:- which is why in 1961 wanting to acknowledge Myles and Bert's feat with the recognition of their “Lost Rock” we asked Dunphy for more information so it could be located. (Instead, should we have asked juxtaposer then?) On first edition of the Gundungura map drawn 1961 we chose the tor which best fitted the description Dunphy had given for “lost rock”. Perhaps we’d missed others. As already mentioned here Mon 28, on Wed 21 Oct 1914 Myles and Bert had to be back up on ‘The Boyd’, to recover the trail they’d missed from Ginkin. At that era before ‘Bushwalking’, the activity was ‘Trailing’ when people in the bushland followed trails of the prospectors, cattle men and timber-getters. Routes marked by blazed trees were shown on the available government maps. It seems ironic that they probably camped on the trail they were looking for but they’d missed the surveyors' blazed trees. Juxta notes they’d pitched their tent on the track they then spent most of Wednesday looking for!


How about juxta, the poser, coming out. I invite her or him to join the courteous conversation offline with the contributions he or she has to make. First read the material now online about Genesis of Gundungura Project. By 1996 I’d hoped that Dunphy's Lost Rock and our Revelation Rock would be the same place . . . a sort of Sacred Site.

As already mentioned here, Myles Dunphy retrospectively rewrote and redrew his records. His daughter-in-law Beverley testified ‘You could never win against Myles; he always shifted his position’. Dexter his younger son, said it was not unusual to change sides in the course of an argument. Of course, we youngsters in SURC did not argue, we just wanted information to be available for bushwalkers! Dexter described in their first Oatley home his father's congested study. (Rather like mine was!) When they moved to the new house, Myles himself said he had ‘about 6 tons’ of material. After 1963 on retirement, he wrote all his journals. How much was reminiscence and how much from stored records, I do not know. From my studies as a history research scholar, I do know that old men's recollections have to be checked from another source.

Myles remained paranoid about being the only person capable of mapping and naming “His” country. An example is an isolated rock near Kanangra Walls: Myles had it on his 1953 Gangerang map without a name. We young walkers and climbers used it theatrically like a podium: so on our map drawn 1961, The Podium. But on his 1963 Kowmung map he named it: Isolated Rock - in order to remove somebody else’s suggestion! He constantly argued with the Surveyor-General (or his Dept) about nomenclature.

The map now available marked 1914 appears drawn or redrawn after Revelation Rock had been named, so that’s where he relocated his Dungall Boulder site, with text to fit. But, Dunphy had written there was no view of Christy's Country until they got further down the Boyd Range. What you described, juxta, was Revelation Rock (what Dave noted was an angled slab). I’ll try to insert map here, but I’m technically out-of-touch so it may not copy. The map loops (drawn by an expert draftsman) hardly reflect wandering about “lost”. Near their camp the then Lands Dept map has a couple of blazed blackbutt trees. These blazes were cut deep into the wood to be permanent, yet they must have kept walking past the trees! They knew the bridle trail was in use (and they were on it) when they’d walked past the stock yard just north of their camp. And a map loop goes past Gallop Rock Lookout, so why is it not shown?
In any case, if you have map with Matheson's Creek, Myles had named that later after his first fiancé... so it wouldn’t be 1914.

When Col Gibson shared his findings about this in 2008 from Myles's then available records, there was a clear distinction between diary and his journal written to relate to his readers. (What research historians need are the original note book entries.) The conclusion from this was that when Dunphy plotted his later Lost Rock / Dungall Boulder, he positioned it at Revelation Rock: but this did NOT fit with the text which (in 2008) I was able to plot - I have been an expert navigator (bush training by my dad, then skills training by Military Intelligence - that says a lot about my age).

Keep looking, guys! There is still a mystery with a solution to be shared.

Geoff, geford@tpg.com.au
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Re: Gundungura Map - Now Available

Postby Allchin09 » Sat 23 Dec, 2017 5:34 pm

geford wrote: I’ll try to insert map here, but I’m technically out-of-touch so it may not copy.


Here's the map extract Geoff was trying to upload. Taken from Dunphy's Journal 4 held in the State Library, recounting his 1914 Kowmung epic.

Journal 4 - map 4_Dungall_Extract.JPG
Extract from Map 4, Journal 4, 1914
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Re: Gundungura Map - Now Available

Postby geford » Thu 28 Dec, 2017 3:55 pm

It’s good of Alex to put up the map (he’d sent me) that ‘I was trying to upload’ 23 Dec 2017. Thanks.
This is to what he was referring 04 Nov2017 in his post under topic of “Nellies Glen Sketch Map”:
The map of 1914 trip features names not given until much later so can not have been made at that time. Alex said it came from Journal 4: Because the journals were written after Dunphy retired in 1963, it’s no use looking there for original source material of 1914! He’d play with names, on ‘The Boyd’ even changing official geographical term Banshea to Banshee (a mythical Irish spirit).

It’d be significant to be able to confirm the actual date of drawing and revision for what ‘Allchin09' wrote (04 Nov) << The Kanangra Tops and Environs map from 1937 has Lost Rock in roughly the same place as it is today, although it's a little hard to place it exactly as the map isn't the most accurate in that area >>. Yet, ‘Juxtaposer’ wrote 20 Dec 2017 that Dunphy changed the name of 1914 Dungall Boulder to Lost Rock in 1934. It’s hoped that source can be verified with evidence of source date, not a Re-vision or a Re-description of something from that date! It’s not easy being a research historian! But back in 1960 we were just youngsters who loved mountain exploring, and wanted a sketch map to use.

For those of you following this with curiosity, you can follow the map Alex put up: Myles and Bert camped 20 Oct 1914 where their ‘Misery’ ridge reached the Boyd Range (later, Dunphy's Mt Goondel). Here they were on the surveyed [blazed trees] cattlemen's “trail” from Ginkin which they’d missed at Budthingeroo. They were looking for this trail because they’d wanted to follow it down the Boyd Range. The miserable cloud had cleared, it was a fine morning. The map shows a loop going north where they went up the trail onto plateau. By then they were lost. Yet the map shows them going towards Christy's Creek which was shown on the survey map. But at this location as on the map there is a good view revealing the Boyd Range across Christy's Creek: That’s why SURC named the lookout Revelation Rock. For armchair travellers there’s a good photo on Google Earth of this view showing the Boyd Range below the lookout [copyright international adventurer Tremaine Dickenson].
But Dunphy did not see this view. His map dated 1914 shows them continuing on another loop across the surveyed trail swinging to west [past a lookout not shown, later Dunphy's Gallop Rock] and back above Christy's Creek again. When you’ve been lost, did you wander in neat draughtsman's loops? They’d been shooting wildlife, and only knew they’d been there before by seeing spent cartridges. Miraculously they were able to scramble across the gully directly back to where they’d started, now knowing that their camp was on the trail. Can you see why I’d like SURC Revelation Rock to have been Dungall Boulder? But in 1961 Myles could not tell me if there was a view when I’d asked him about plotting ‘Lost Rock’.

It could be concluded this map dated 1914 was drawn after the Gundungura map was published. So where was (is) ‘Lost Rock’? By 1974 when he was to write “Lost Rock, which Gallop and I had mounted in 1914 to see Mount Colong and to try to find the beginning of Boyd Range”, Myles Dunphy had apparently convinced himself that Revelation Rock was Dungall Boulder. In 1914 they were looking for the cattle trail - no cattle trail would go past Revelation Rock! I don’t know where ‘Lost Rock’ really was. I don’t remember what records from Myles I had even when I asked him in 1961 for better description to plot it. Looking at what Col Gibson shared in 2008, I got the impression that Bert was the real leader in the bush, but (given his character) that Myles would over-rule him. That would explain a lot. I’m sorry that with my disabling condition, I cannot go back to look more, so it’s up to younger people to correct it.

To east of Boyd Range Myles renamed Christy's Creek on the survey maps as Wooglemai Creek. The creek to west he named after Doris Matheson. On the other side of his Misery Ridge, he named Matheson's Creek. I understand contact with the family came later, so name would not be mapped at same time as Dungall Boulder. (Matheson? Doris b.1894 later married John Fisher; Hazel b.1895 became engaged to Myles; George b.1897 became member of subsequent Mountain Trails Club.)
In 1914 Dunphy had only to follow the watershed (‘main ridge’) to west of Christy's Creek shown on the Parish survey map. The 1900 Banshea map shows trail from Ginkin coming from north across Charles Jensen's blocks (Portions 10, 11) past blazed “Gum”, along boundary of Portion 12 covering “Main Ridge” (Crown Lease) to the Boyd Range.

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Re: Gundungura Map - Now Available

Postby geford » Wed 17 Jan, 2018 1:20 pm

Concerning interest in the location at Kanangra for the real (original) ‘Lost Rock’ of the Dungall 1914 expedition, there has been lots of work with maps since my previous post. The conclusion is that “Lost Rock’ was nearly half a kilometre to the north east of the SURC Revelation Rock. Perhaps in rewriting his ‘memoirs’ after retirement Dunphy was desperate to get it relocated in his campaign to eliminate as much of the original Gundungura map as he could. Myles was very like another prominent conservationist I studied, J.D Tipper, founder of Muogamarra Sanctuary - who in retirement rewrote history for his memoirs to present as a benign public spirited man - in contrast with his original correspondence fifty years earlier and with the views of his family. I’ve already made a mea culpa, at Nelly's Glen, so I repeat: writings of old men (like me) should be checked to use for history.

Reviewing the records, it is likely that Myles Dunphy with Bert Gallop in 1914 had intended walk the cattle trail (Pfeffer's Track) from Ginkin to ‘The Boyd’ on the way from Jenolan to Yerranderie. Trying to get back onto it they’d become ‘lost’. Here is a summary for ‘Lost Rock’ mapping. I am encouraged by other cartographiles who contribute.

In 1961 I drew the Gundungura sketch map from aerial photos - with field checking by the then 16 participants over weekends and uni vacations. We used every published map available from Myles (sold by Paddy) - but that did not include the 1937 map. I listed the maps in my 1996 story published by Dave Noble, URL:
https://www.subw.org.au/archives/press- ... undungura/ .
In the 1996 story I admired Myles the Magnificent - that very much holds true. But I was mistaken in referring to him as Munificent when he published his own Kowmung Country map. Rather, he’d become Malevolent, even in writing to the SURC years after I’d left Sydney. Although the Gundungura records at uni disappeared in 1980s, Greg Middleton had taken some which he returned later and Phil Harrison showed me (2017). Athol Abrahams as SURC leader had been replaced by Greg - who (when I tracked him in 2017), told me he’d communicated with Myles without identifying himself as SURC, thus explaining alterations to the later Gundungura map editions! Long after I’d left, Myles had accused me of drawing from the provisional maps which came out after my sketches. Why would I? We’d have just used them if they’d been available! The Lands Dept had been preparing for publication topo maps - at first provisional, from the same military aerial photos I’d been privileged to use. But in his retirement Myles did not access these restricted photos, so what was source for his 1963 map which in 1961 he was not able to do?
I’ve been making a new comparison of the 1960s sketch maps, and the efforts are amazing that were put in by Myles to erase as much as possible of the original SURC efforts. We had a policy of no (zero) use of names from living people, quite the opposite of the Dunphy practice! Terms he contrived like Whalania, Dungalla we thought sounded good, but certainly not historic geographical names which he claimed! (Roly Whalan died 1941, Bert Gallop 1958) The original cast of the MTC feature prominently, but that’s another story, several stories.


Altho it’s disappointing ‘Juxtaposer’ did not contribute anything, ‘Allchin09' has been a tower of strength in sharing some of his research into Dunphy archives, with copies of maps for personal study. The key is the 3rd September 1934 map in the State Library archives (donated 1987) identified “Done for Raphael C. Doyle” [of the MTC - he died 1972]. This is the most beautiful map I’ve ever seen! It appears to be a preview for map 14-4-1937 (also donated 1987). Myles lived until Jan 1985 when he was still rewriting his memoirs. I’m surprised Dave Noble said 11 Nov 2017 that Paddy sold the 1937 map (in 1950s?). He did not tell me altho’ he was mentoring my mapping. If I’d seen it I would not have had to ask Myles in 1961 about the location of ‘Lost Rock’!
Dungall Boulder is not shown in 1930s, but the location on these maps for ‘Lost Rock’ is Dunphy's original position. Using specialist techniques, I have examined this carefully, comparing with later sketch maps and the Lands Dept topo map (Yerranderie sheet): The original 1914 ‘Lost Rock’ Myles drew on Wheengeewhungee Heights, 435 metres north east of the new “Lost Rock” located at Revelation Rock. The image Alex put up for me here 23 Dec2017 is not from 1914: it’s a 1960s/70s re-drawing with Dungall Boulder re-located to Revelation Rock. The view of Mt Colong and the Boyd Range, rather than from Dungall Boulder in 1914, is from Revelation Rock in 1961.

A 435 m (more than 1/4 mile) difference would have been important to Myles . . . near the camp at Pfeffer's selection, he noted the distance between Morong Ck and Landrigan's Ck was out by just 1/8 mile (ca.200 metres). He was too competent to have mistakenly relocated ‘Lost Rock’ - his obliteration of SURC Revelation Rock was deliberate - no wonder he fought with the Lands Dept until 1969 to have his re-location accepted by Geographic Names Board. I’m forum illiterate so I’ll ask Alex to put up here my Google image showing the locations.

There is so much more to share about Myles and his MTC, who had made a trail along the route later used for the Uni Rover Trail - condemned by Myles! Next step for finding the real ‘Lost Rock’ is field proofing. Back to Alex! Then there’s the matter of correcting the Lands Dept.
I’m thinking of you in my dreams: Good Walking.
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Re: Gundungura Map - Now Available

Postby rcaffin » Wed 17 Jan, 2018 9:02 pm

Hi Geoff

J.D Tipper, founder of Muogamarra Sanctuary - who in retirement rewrote history for his memoirs to present as a benign public spirited man - in contrast with his original correspondence fifty years earlier and with the views of his family.

Happens.
References? To before and after?

Cheers
Roger
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Re: Gundungura Map - Now Available

Postby geford » Thu 18 Jan, 2018 2:31 pm

Roger, what a pity you did not ask when you were doing Bushwalker magazine - while I was active! Reference is:- “finding by Dr G.E. Ford, history research scholar, in study of J.D. Tipper's life and times with the foundation of Muogamarra Sanctuary”. This exhaustive Muogamarra study was circa 1996 to 2006. It was then, when going through Crown Lands archives for 1920s, that I came across M.J. Dunphy's confrontational correspondence. The quote here I did mention p.99 in research work Ford 2010 (there are nine instances of mention of Tipper). Published as a book with limited distribution, this work is freely available at identifier: http://hdl.handle.net/2123/7745 . Some readers, seeking more information on the Aboriginal people of the Blue Mountains, have printed and bound their own copies. It is not part of 1960s SURC project of this topic. For further discussion, please contact me directly.
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Re: Gundungura Map - Now Available

Postby Allchin09 » Sun 21 Jan, 2018 11:02 pm

geford wrote:A 435 m (more than 1/4 mile) difference would have been important to Myles . . . near the camp at Pfeffer's selection, he noted the distance between Morong Ck and Landrigan's Ck was out by just 1/8 mile (ca.200 metres). He was too competent to have mistakenly relocated ‘Lost Rock’ - his obliteration of SURC Revelation Rock was deliberate - no wonder he fought with the Lands Dept until 1969 to have his re-location accepted by Geographic Names Board. I’m forum illiterate so I’ll ask Alex to put up here my Google image showing the locations.


Image, as supplied by Ford.
Locations of the 'Rocks'.jpg
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Re: Gundungura Map - Now Available

Postby rcaffin » Wed 24 Jan, 2018 1:30 pm

Hi Geoff

Roger, what a pity you did not ask when you were doing Bushwalker magazine - while I was active!

There are many, many things I should have (well, could have) enquired about around the world, but time ... sigh.

Btw, The Bushwalker mag is NOT dead, just the print version. We are trying to transition to a web-only version. It needs server space. Contributions are still welcome!

Reference is:- “finding by Dr G.E. Ford, history research scholar, in study of J.D. Tipper's life and times with the foundation of Muogamarra Sanctuary”.

Can't find that at the URL you gave, just your thesis on the Darkinung.
Help?

Cheers
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Re: Gundungura Map - Now Available

Postby geford » Mon 30 Apr, 2018 5:15 pm

Gundungura map and Dunphy ‘Lost Rock’ Mystery thread:
Since the post 21Jan2018 when Allchin09 put up the location I’d calculated using data by Myles Dunphy, there have been more discussions off-line. During my scientific research studies, discussing issues with outsiders over coffee was always fruitful. There may be scope here for more people to contribute to the present study, so I trust Alex does not mind this post.
While Juxtaposer 20Dec2017 thought that the uni Revelation Rock lookout was Dunphy's ‘Lost Rock’, that is not so: In 1930s Dunphy himself plotted what he then called the ‘Lost Rock’ on WheengeeWhungee Heights. There was no view so it cannot be Revelation Rock: for the 1914 trip, Myles said their first view of Christy’s Country was when down on the Boyd Range later. At that period, Christy's Creek was shown on the survey maps for what he re-named Wooglemai Canyon.

It’s no secret Myles was miffed by the Uni Rover Gundungura map drawn 1961 (available from Paddy 1962), and he chose to use Revelation Rock to re-position the ‘Lost Rock’ for his1963 map and subsequent writings.
Now, everybody has heard of Dick Smith who has supported so many conservation issues in recent decades! He sat admiring the view from Revelation Rock lookout recently, and determined to get to the bottom of the re-naming. With him was a member of SBW whom he commissioned to see the correct names officially applied.

Re-confirming: There used to be a blazed surveyors' trail from Ginkin across The Boyd, to Yerranderie. This was to be followed by Myles Dunphy and Bert (Herbert) Gallop on their 1914 trek. But they missed it - instead of staying in the hut at Pfeffer's selection on the range top, they stayed in the hut at Venn's selection on the river flats. From the present study, it has been gleaned that in 1914 when Dunphy and Gallop were searching on The Boyd for this mountain trail they’d missed [hence discovering the fantastic Morong Deep by error], they found from bullet cartridges that they’d been wandering in circles. A rock where they found their spent cartridges Myles referred to as the Dungall Boulder. The sketches neatly drawn by Myles, to accompany his journals written more than 50 years later in retirement, are unrealistic (see post 23Dec2017). The Dungall Boulder had to be shown because it is part of the 1914 story, and he had called it ‘Lost Rock’ on 1930s maps when he couldn’t locate its site. But there was never a justification to have taken over the Revelation Rock as its location. Dave Noble pointed out 06Nov2017 the geology is different anyway.

Unless something else turns up in the tons of archives Alex has been studying in the Mitchell Library, it seems that on the Christmas 1931 and 1932 mapping expeditions, this site could not be found, so for his 1930s maps, Myles had plotted a ‘Lost Rock’ on WheengeeWhungee Heights. No wonder he could not tell the Uni Rovers anything about its location when I asked in 1961! It’s worth analysing ‘The Bushwalker’ magazine Apr.1932 account of the 1931 expedition: “Plateau Plodding” by Frank Mort (reprinted Mar.1961, online from SBW).

Re-examining the position now, the site is east of the Mountain Trails Club marked trail on the 1930s maps.
Readers can see that the 1960s Uni Rover marked trail is also east of where the MTC trail was. So, the possibility exists that the “best-fit” position of the ‘Lost Rock’ on the SURC Gundungura map drawn 1961 could be Myles's actual site after all! Old persons' memories are unreliable. I don’t remember why I wanted to plot Dunphy's ‘Lost Rock’ on the Uni Rover map, seeking guidance from him. I don’t remember his Kanangra Tops and Environs map, but perhaps I had seen it after all!

I can’t get out now. For those who’ve been in touch, it’s appreciated. Forgive me when I repeat myself. Please excuse the typos. For all you lovers of Kowmung Country, please share your discoveries with Alex - he’s been working on it since the centenary re-enactment. Share the Joy.

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Re: Gundungura Map - Now Available

Postby geford » Wed 02 May, 2018 9:50 am

PostScript - A query raised is to be answered: with such a mass of records from Myles Dunphy archived at the Mitchell Library, where are the records from Geoff Ford? Well, apart from my publications as a Research Scientist and Research Historian, my records no longer exist. The documents for the 1960s Gundungura project were all kept in the storeroom of the Rover-Scout den at the Uni. With priceless pre-war heritage material from the 1930s, they were dumped in the 1980s. The sad story has been told briefly on second page of the document, Genesis of the Gundungura Project. Remember that at that time, single ‘r’.
After I renounced copyright for SURC Gundungura publications, public domain material has been hosted on line, being available from Dave Noble site at URL: http://www.david-noble.net/SURC/GundunguraGuide.html ; and available from Peter Medbury Dingo Gap site, at URL: https://www.dingogap.net.au/gundungura- ... oklet-1970 . For Genesis, check background notes.
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