Private Property signs on Corang Loop

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Private Property signs on Corang Loop

Postby Huntsman247 » Sun 22 Jul, 2018 6:05 pm

The other weekend I did the Corang Arch Loop track near Wog Wog. And noticed a ridiculous amount of no trespassing signs near the campsite by the Corang Cascades. The track has been around for ages and I've done it a while ago and didn't see any signs.
Coming back home I checked the maps a bit better and yes it is just slightly out of NP. Has anyone encountered issues with anyone there? Or know any further info about why so many signs. It's obviously been used as a walking track for ages and a well-established campsite I'm wondering why they are trying to stop it now.
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Re: Private Property signs on Corang Loop

Postby michael_p » Sun 22 Jul, 2018 6:37 pm

Interesting development.

Google: "Kirriford Estate". It appears that the property may have been subdivided and sold off. Maybe the new owners don't like the idea of bushwalkers crossing their property. You would have thought that anyone purchasing the property would have been informed of the existence of the walking track across the property as it's been a walking route for decades.

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Re: Private Property signs on Corang Loop

Postby Huntsman247 » Sun 22 Jul, 2018 6:48 pm

michael_p wrote:Interesting development.

Google: "Kirriford Estate". It appears that the property may have been subdivided and sold off. Maybe the new owners don't like the idea of bushwalkers crossing their property. You would have thought that anyone purchasing the property would have been informed of the existence of the walking track across the property as it's been a walking route for decades.

Cheers,
Michael.


Hmmm... Yeah interesting... Not much on it though. But a key selling point is that its ' "Kirrirford Estate" is a secure land estate offering only access to land owners.' But yes the signs are plentiful. Someone doesn't want hikers in the area.
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Re: Private Property signs on Corang Loop

Postby wildwanderer » Sun 22 Jul, 2018 7:00 pm

Wow.. Will be a fence at some time in the near future judging by the effort already gone to.. :(

I had no idea that area wasnt in the national park.

A bit of googling has 100+ acre lots being sold off.. in new land release. Thanks NSW gov.

https://www.realestateview.com.au/real- ... -11405760/
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Re: Private Property signs on Corang Loop

Postby Huntsman247 » Sun 22 Jul, 2018 7:26 pm

wildwanderer wrote:Wow.. Will be a fence at some time in the near future judging by the effort already gone to.. :(

I had no idea that area wasnt in the national park.

A bit of googling has 100+ acre lots being sold off.. in new land release. Thanks NSW gov.

https://www.realestateview.com.au/real- ... -11405760/
Yeah. Rather sad. Such a great spot.
I could have taken more pics of signs but got bored with it. Plenty more there.

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Re: Private Property signs on Corang Loop

Postby tom_brennan » Mon 23 Jul, 2018 11:32 am

I did a lot search for DP755970/105 and the immediately prior owner was listed as Crown Land. So it does appear to have been sold off by the government. How galling.

That particular lot should have been added to the NP estate.

It's very frustrating that by the time you find out about these things, it's too late.
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Re: Private Property signs on Corang Loop

Postby tom_brennan » Mon 23 Jul, 2018 12:11 pm

I was going to blast off an email to Crown Lands to try and understand what the process had been, but from this document dated 2007, it looks like the transfer to private hands was some time in the past:
http://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/resou ... rategy.pdf

Might be worth contacting NPWS as they were aware of the track and the previous access issue.
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Re: Private Property signs on Corang Loop

Postby Warin » Mon 23 Jul, 2018 2:39 pm

Needs a new track inside the NP .. about 2 km.

I have added some creek detail to OSM in the bypass area to help with some navigation ... the topo line suggest that it is not too steep for a walk around as long as you don't go to the cliff line.
I have also marked that section of the track as no access.
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Re: Private Property signs on Corang Loop

Postby wildwanderer » Mon 23 Jul, 2018 2:49 pm

Warin wrote:Needs a new track inside the NP .. about 2 km.

I have added some creek detail to OSM in the bypass area to help with some navigation ... the topo line suggest that it is not too steep for a walk around as long as you don't go to the cliff line.
I have also marked that section of the track as no access.


Might be a bit premature to start marking the area as no access. Lets give National Parks and user groups time to negotiate with the landholders first. If we start marking maps, then the landholders can point to them and say its already 'known' that the area is no longer a walking track.
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Re: Private Property signs on Corang Loop

Postby Warin » Mon 23 Jul, 2018 2:58 pm

wildwanderer wrote:
Warin wrote:Needs a new track inside the NP .. about 2 km.

I have added some creek detail to OSM in the bypass area to help with some navigation ... the topo line suggest that it is not too steep for a walk around as long as you don't go to the cliff line.
I have also marked that section of the track as no access.


Might be a bit premature to start marking the area as no access. Lets give National Parks and user groups time to negotiate with the landholders first. If we start marking maps, then the landholders can point to them and say its already 'known' that the area is no longer a walking track.


Good Point.
It will tak a while for the data to go through to any GPS/phone map .. at least a month. So I'll just remove the access tag and put a comment on it.
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Re: Private Property signs on Corang Loop

Postby tom_brennan » Mon 23 Jul, 2018 5:11 pm

Warin wrote: ... the topo line suggest that it is not too steep for a walk around as long as you don't go to the cliff line.

The topo map doesn't show the scrub!!
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Re: Private Property signs on Corang Loop

Postby LachlanB » Mon 23 Jul, 2018 6:37 pm

Is it just my imagination, or has there been access problems on the Corang Lagoon track before? I could swear that someone has told me at some point that a landholder tried to close the track a few years ago, but gave up?

Warin wrote:Needs a new track inside the NP .. about 2 km.

This wouldn't be much good, as the current Corang Lagoon campsite is on the south side of the river, and thus in private property. Even worse, the park boundary is on the north side of the river, and set back from it a touch (based on the topo maps). Wouldn't this leave the entirety of Corang Lagoon and the cascades downstream of it on private property?
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Re: Private Property signs on Corang Loop

Postby wildwanderer » Mon 23 Jul, 2018 7:37 pm

LachlanB wrote:
Warin wrote:Needs a new track inside the NP .. about 2 km.

This wouldn't be much good, as the current Corang Lagoon campsite is on the south side of the river, and thus in private property. Even worse, the park boundary is on the north side of the river, and set back from it a touch (based on the topo maps). Wouldn't this leave the entirety of Corang Lagoon and the cascades downstream of it on private property?


Yep seems Corang Lagoon/cascades is now private property :(

I think Warin is referring to reducing the 'loop' and making it within the park boundaries. Which would be a shame because then walkers could not visit corang lagoon/cascades, which is one of the highlights of the trip.

Making a new trail would take some effort. Likely requiring mechanical hedge trimming tools etc. As Tom said the scrub is thick and tough.

Lets hope sane heads prevail and there is an agreement with the landholder.

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Re: Private Property signs on Corang Loop

Postby Huntsman247 » Mon 23 Jul, 2018 9:48 pm

tom_brennan wrote:I did a lot search for DP755970/105 and the immediately prior owner was listed as Crown Land. So it does appear to have been sold off by the government. How galling.

That particular lot should have been added to the NP estate.

It's very frustrating that by the time you find out about these things, it's too late.


Yeah very frustrating. You'd think that NPWS staff would be more interested in maintaining the special spots. But then again I believe that one of the owners of the property that borders on the NP entry at sassafras is an NPWS employee. So who knows what agendas are in play.

Warin wrote:Needs a new track inside the NP .. about 2 km.
I have added some creek detail to OSM in the bypass area to help with some navigation ... the topo line suggest that it is not too steep for a walk around as long as you don't go to the cliff line.
I have also marked that section of the track as no access.

Let's not give up this easily. :(
Tom is right. It's pretty flat but scrubby. Not the worst but solid scrub nonetheless.

LachlanB wrote:Is it just my imagination, or has there been access problems on the Corang Lagoon track before? I could swear that someone has told me at some point that a landholder tried to close the track a few years ago, but gave up?

I noticed a fair bit of rusted barbed wire crossing the track at some point. It appeared to be wrapped around some trees and disappeared into the shrub. (at S35° 15.735' E150° 06.354') In hindsight, it would seem as though someone tried to stop walkers. But after just checking now it seems it was a bit before the property boundary but could have been an attempt to stop people.

Who normally initiates the talks with the landowners to discuss an agreement?
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Re: Private Property signs on Corang Loop

Postby LachlanB » Mon 23 Jul, 2018 9:53 pm

wildwanderer wrote:Yep seems Corang Lagoon/cascades is now private property :(


That would be really sad. It's such a special place!

It would also be unfortunate to have to cut another track through the area when the current track is a better alignment. That part of the private property block is so far away from the main part of the property and so remote from any other access infrastructure that doesn't come through the national park. Plus the soil there is so scrappy it wouldn't be much use for any sort of farming. Last thing the Corang area needs is another Cockpit Swamp-style mess.

So I'm hoping that the signs are just a stunt by the estate agent to secure their turf during a sale, and it'll all blow over in a few months. The signs will fall down or decay, and the status quo will return.
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Re: Private Property signs on Corang Loop

Postby LachlanB » Mon 23 Jul, 2018 10:06 pm

Huntsman247 wrote:Let's not give up this easily. :(

I totally agree! It's one of the best circuit walks in the region, and we shouldn't give up on it without a fight. :evil:

Huntsman247 wrote:Who normally initiates the talks with the landowners to discuss an agreement?

I've got no idea, but I think talking to NPWS should probably be the first port of call.
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Re: Private Property signs on Corang Loop

Postby Walk_fat boy_walk » Mon 30 Jul, 2018 9:37 pm

The main cascades (at the rock ribs) are just below the confluence with canowie brook, so assuming the green line on the above map is the park boundary, they are not on private property. But yeh selling the lagoon area is a *&%$#! disgrace. Have a mind to go for a walk one weekend and 'relocate' some signs

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Re: Private Property signs on Corang Loop

Postby Grabeach » Tue 31 Jul, 2018 9:59 am

One for Bushwalking NSW Tracks and Access?
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Re: Private Property signs on Corang Loop

Postby LachlanB » Tue 31 Jul, 2018 10:34 am

Walk_fat boy_walk wrote:The main cascades (at the rock ribs) are just below the confluence with canowie brook, so assuming the green line on the above map is the park boundary, they are not on private property. But yeh selling the lagoon area is a *&%$#! disgrace. Have a mind to go for a walk one weekend and 'relocate' some signs

Yeah, the Corang Cascades/Many Rock Ribs would definitely be in the national park. Sorry I wasn't clear, there's another set of cascades just downstream of the Lagoon. These look like they would probably be private property.

I was wondering about the big No Trespassing signs. Do they have any force under NSW law, or would a landholder have to trespass you personally?

Also, my (totally inexpert) Googling seemed to indicate that trespass is only applicable if the land is enclosed by a fence, either fully or with other obvious features such as a combination of fences and cliffs. Seeing as the lot doesn't seem to be fenced on the side abutting the park is it possible that bushwalkers have access anyway?
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Re: Private Property signs on Corang Loop

Postby crollsurf » Tue 31 Jul, 2018 11:59 am

It depends who bought the land but so long as everyone is respectful, there wont be problems. I'd say those signs are up there for purely legal reasons. So if you're on their land and get injured, you have no legal recourse.
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Re: Private Property signs on Corang Loop

Postby Huntsman247 » Tue 31 Jul, 2018 12:28 pm

crollsurf wrote:It depends who has bought the land but so long as everyone is respectful, there wont be problems. I'd say those signs are up there purely for legal reasons. So if you're on their land and get injured, you have no legal recourse.
Let's hope so. Seems like a bit much effort just for that. Anyways been in contact with NPWS but the person who can help is currently not available... Let's see if they contact me back.
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Re: Private Property signs on Corang Loop

Postby Huntsman247 » Tue 31 Jul, 2018 4:42 pm

So bit of an update...

Apparently the Ranger that looks after the wog wog area is currently away until the end of August.

The Ulladulla NPWS office that looks after the wog wog area has already been informed by someone else of the respective signs. Once the ranger gets back, one of the things he has on his list of things to do is speak with the land owners and see if they can organise some sort of arraignment.

This is unlikely as the liability issue is a big factor apparently. NPWS is rather limited in what they can do in these cases. According to the person I spoke to, that property is on the list of properties that NPWS want to make part of the park but is not a priority due to budget constraints. Also that the property was crown land but already had a 90yr lease.

Long story short and reading between the lines. Best option for now is to go though till your warned not to, as there is no fence. Nothing NPWS can really do for our benefit of the owner doesn't want people there.

The guy from NPWS will be looking into it and taking to the property owners.
He may be able to shed some more light on the issue when that takes place.

The guys name is 'Rob' and is reachable by contacting the ulladulla NPWS office. Who knows if a few of us ring and POLITELY ask about the signs when he gets back to work it may just be bumped up the priority list.
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Re: Private Property signs on Corang Loop

Postby jdeks » Tue 31 Jul, 2018 6:10 pm

Lets hope he doesn't own a ute and/or shovel....
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Re: Private Property signs on Corang Loop

Postby Huntsman247 » Tue 31 Jul, 2018 7:02 pm

jdeks wrote:Lets hope he doesn't own a ute and/or shovel....
? You've lost me
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Re: Private Property signs on Corang Loop

Postby wildwanderer » Tue 31 Jul, 2018 7:46 pm

Huntsman247 wrote:So bit of an update...

This is unlikely as the liability issue is a big factor apparently. NPWS is rather limited in what they can do in these cases. According to the person I spoke to, that property is on the list of properties that NPWS want to make part of the park but is not a priority due to budget constraints. Also that the property was crown land but already had a 90yr lease.
.

Dam nanny state... It ridiculous that I can sue a land owner if I voluntarily walk on to their property, trip on a rock and impale myself on a stick. The law needs a personal responsibility clause.

Meanwhile the big companies can keep legitimate cases of compensation held up in the courts for years… until the plaintiff runs out of money or dies. :(
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Re: Private Property signs on Corang Loop

Postby tsweetna » Tue 11 Sep, 2018 12:27 pm

All,

Having come across the new "Private Property / No Tespassing" signs this weekend, 9 Sep2018, I have done some additional investigation and can confirm that the Corang Lagoon and the part of the track lying between the two new "No Trespassing" signs is on what used to be Crown Land detailed in Deposited Plan 755970 lot 105 which was granted as a perpetual lease on the 19-Aug-1942 for a current annual rental of $139- ha ha. (see line 2827 in the spreadsheet http://www.smh.com.au/specials/leases/leases.xls which also provides other details).

From the 1 July 2018 it is possible for lease holder to convert their perpetual lease to freehold see https://www.industry.nsw.gov.au/__data/ ... -sheet.pdf. I suspect this is the reason for the new signs. Clearly as the lawyers say "time is of the essence" and the crown land may have already been converted to freehold. I do note however that there is a requirement for consultation with other parties that may have an interest in the land. Clearly for DP 755970/150 this should have included bush-walkers. If this hasn't happened then there may be some legal redress. Who are the lawyer bush-walkers?

Note the Kirriford Estate subdivision and sale of land referred to earlier in this discussion appear to relate to lot 88 which is futher to the west, with road access from the junction of Nerriga Rd and Charlies Forest Road

Best Regards, Tony Sweetnam
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Re: Private Property signs on Corang Loop

Postby tsweetna » Tue 11 Sep, 2018 5:06 pm

Sorry the latest news is not particularly good.

I made further enquiry to the NSW Department of Industry, Crown Lands and the reply received was:

"Good Afternoon Mr Sweetnam,

In regards to your query in relation to Lot 105 DP 755970, this land is freehold. It ceased to be Crown Leasehold land January 2011.

Kind Regards,
Lisa Burton
NSW Department of Industry | Lands and Forestry Division - Dubbo Business Centre
Postal: PO Box 2185, DANGAR NSW 2309
T: 1300 886 235 | F: 02 4925 3517 | E leases@crownland.nsw.gov.au W: http://www.crownland.nsw.gov.au"

I believe there are three options for maintaining acess to Corang Loop track and the Corang Lagoon, but none of them will be likely or easy.
1) Negotiate with the owner for access
2) Get the Land and Environment court to grant and easement
3) Get the NSW NPWS to resume and incorporate the Eastern end of Lot 105 DP 755970 with the track and lagoon into the Morton National Park.

Regards, Tony Sweetnam
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Re: Private Property signs on Corang Loop

Postby Allchin09 » Tue 11 Sep, 2018 6:29 pm

Thanks for looking into this Tony, how did you find the leases spreadsheet? I can't seem to find the original website, just trying to work out how up to date it is.
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Re: Private Property signs on Corang Loop

Postby ribuck » Tue 11 Sep, 2018 7:31 pm

tsweetna wrote:I believe there are three options for maintaining acess to Corang Loop track and the Corang Lagoon

(4) Raise enough money to make the owner an offer they can't refuse, and buy the little pocket of the land that is valuable to bushwalkers. It's possible that the owner's main interest is in the parts of the property that have practical road access.
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Re: Private Property signs on Corang Loop

Postby Adventure Matt » Sun 23 Sep, 2018 7:05 pm

Hey guys has anyone camped at the Lagoon camp site since the signs have gone up?
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