50km tunnel under blue mtns..... Proposal

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50km tunnel under blue mtns..... Proposal

Postby wildwanderer » Thu 17 Jan, 2019 9:34 am

Bit of a crazy idea discussed between Jeremy Buckingham (former greens mp and now running as independent) and Elron Musk..

Sounds absurd and wouldn’t be worth mentioning but the SA battery idea got up.

Under the Grose/Govett Valley from the photo. :x Surprised a former greens mp was involved!

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/sou ... 50ru7.html

Im not against tunnels per say.. but I suspect there would need to be allot of above ground work done during construction and potentially fume extraction stacks positioned in world heritage bushland. Which would not be acceptable to me.
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Re: 50km tunnel under blue mtns..... Proposal

Postby michael_p » Thu 17 Jan, 2019 9:44 am

Isn't it illegal to mine/tunnel under a NP?
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Re: 50km tunnel under blue mtns..... Proposal

Postby potato » Thu 17 Jan, 2019 10:03 am

Yes, its not a very well thought out proposal. Typical of Musk to jump on board with a "solution" and no doubt the musk fans will support it.
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Re: 50km tunnel under blue mtns..... Proposal

Postby Zapruda » Thu 17 Jan, 2019 10:18 am

michael_p wrote:Isn't it illegal to mine/tunnel under a NP?


Its not stopping them from doing it in Kosciuszko NP as part of the Snowy Hydro 2.0 nonsense...
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Re: 50km tunnel under blue mtns..... Proposal

Postby clarence » Thu 17 Jan, 2019 11:14 am

michael_p wrote:Isn't it illegal to mine/tunnel under a NP?


Depends on the Reserve. Some have allowances for mining under them. Some reserves vary in the depth of their application.

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Re: 50km tunnel under blue mtns..... Proposal

Postby climberman » Thu 17 Jan, 2019 7:34 pm

clarence wrote:
michael_p wrote:Isn't it illegal to mine/tunnel under a NP?


Depends on the Reserve. Some have allowances for mining under them. Some reserves vary in the depth of their application.

Clarence


Typically (NSW) you can mine under a State Conservation Area (hence the Illawarra longwalls), and not under a NP.

For a transport corridor you would revoke that portion of the NP via an amendment to the NPW Act through Parliament, as currently happens where required.

Musks costs? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: 50km tunnel under blue mtns..... Proposal

Postby crollsurf » Thu 17 Jan, 2019 9:46 pm

Seems Roads and Power lines can do as they please in NSW NP's. With the government we have at the moment, they would spend at least that in consulting fees and then buy trains that don't fit in the tunnel. Don't laugh, they've done that recently. :roll:
It's good idea and will probably happen one day but I think a high speed train Wollongong/Sydney/Newcastle would be higher up the list.
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Re: 50km tunnel under blue mtns..... Proposal

Postby GPSGuided » Fri 18 Jan, 2019 4:14 am

Elon Musk and his florid crazy ideas. Too many ideas on the table and I doubt he would channel his money this way. Not worth worrying.
Just move it!
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Re: 50km tunnel under blue mtns..... Proposal

Postby ribuck » Fri 18 Jan, 2019 7:20 am

wildwanderer wrote:... potentially fume extraction stacks positioned in world heritage bushland...

If only electric vehicles can use the tunnel, it should be possible to avoid fume extraction stacks.

It doesn't make economic sense, but it makes environmental sense. Why consume energy to get Lithgow-bound vehicles up to 1000m above sea level, only to take them down Victoria Pass?
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Re: 50km tunnel under blue mtns..... Proposal

Postby wildwanderer » Fri 18 Jan, 2019 7:59 am

ribuck wrote:
wildwanderer wrote:... potentially fume extraction stacks positioned in world heritage bushland...

If only electric vehicles can use the tunnel, it should be possible to avoid fume extraction stacks.

It doesn't make economic sense, but it makes environmental sense. Why consume energy to get Lithgow-bound vehicles up to 1000m above sea level, only to take them down Victoria Pass?


If it could be done without breaking the surface in the national parks during construction or operation and had no effect on the water table. And there was no noise/vibration filtering through to the surface then Id be all for it. Could go a long way to counter the argument that we need to build on the Warragamba flood plain. Send people/business west instead... there is now a fast transport route.

However, these tunnels need emergency exits and oxygen towers (even if no fume extraction stacks). to build those roads would need to be pushed through. Don’t think id want emergency exit buildings dotting the blue mountains NP landscape, someone would probably decide their need to be an access road to them as well.
More info.
https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/pub ... 50rzp.html
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Re: 50km tunnel under blue mtns..... Proposal

Postby climberman » Fri 18 Jan, 2019 8:48 am

crollsurf wrote:Seems Roads and Power lines can do as they please in NSW NP's. With the government we have at the moment, they would spend at least that in consulting fees and then buy trains that don't fit in the tunnel. Don't laugh, they've done that recently. :roll:
It's good idea and will probably happen one day but I think a high speed train Wollongong/Sydney/Newcastle would be higher up the list.


Having been very involved in road/NP interface projects it is certainly very, very, very far from 'do as they please'. Regional communities deserve safe travel too.

I've no problem with buying improved fleet that requires some network upgrade. We upgrade the road network all the time in part to allow for road fleet changes, no issue from my end about occasional amendments to minor parts of the network to get improved assets to service the whole network, and that most of the network can benefit from while changes are happening.

It'd be interesting to see how much of Penrith to Lithgow underground has similar issues to Syd-Wollongong in terms of stability/historic coal seam extraction, current live extraction, etc.

Regardless of venting etc for operation, pre-construction investigations would require considerable surface access. It's 50k's or so of tunnel; that's some considerable set of geotech investigations and drilling to even get a concept design let alone detailed design.

I am also confused about how a road between Lithgow and Penrith does anything but exacerbate Sydney's road traffic.
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Re: 50km tunnel under blue mtns..... Proposal

Postby potato » Fri 18 Jan, 2019 8:53 am

climberman wrote: I am also confused about how a road between Lithgow and Penrith does anything but exacerbate Sydney's road traffic.


Buckingham = Latham lite.
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Re: 50km tunnel under blue mtns..... Proposal

Postby Mark F » Fri 18 Jan, 2019 8:59 am

Surely the easiest solution is to run the road up the Grose Valley and then a 2 to 3km tunnel under the Darling Causeway to Hartley Vale and the Great Western Highway. We could get a lay-by complete with McDonalds at Blue Gum Forest. :twisted:
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Re: 50km tunnel under blue mtns..... Proposal

Postby climberman » Fri 18 Jan, 2019 9:31 am

The easiest solution is to use the GWH or BLR.
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Re: 50km tunnel under blue mtns..... Proposal

Postby kjbeath » Fri 18 Jan, 2019 1:37 pm

Estimates from people who actually build tunnels are that he is a factor of 10 to 50 out, that is the tunnel and associated infrastructure would cost $10 to $50 billion.
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Re: 50km tunnel under blue mtns..... Proposal

Postby rcaffin » Sun 20 Jan, 2019 9:11 am

Mark F wrote:Surely the easiest solution is to run the road up the Grose Valley and then a 2 to 3km tunnel under the Darling Causeway to Hartley Vale and the Great Western Highway. We could get a lay-by complete with McDonalds at Blue Gum Forest. :twisted:


Thank you Mark. Humour is always helpful.
Wouldn't it be cheaper to use a clean nuke to remove Darling Causeway instead? :mrgreen:

Cheers
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Re: 50km tunnel under blue mtns..... Proposal

Postby outjb » Sun 20 Jan, 2019 9:38 am

kjbeath wrote:Estimates from people who actually build tunnels are that he is a factor of 10 to 50 out, that is the tunnel and associated infrastructure would cost $10 to $50 billion.


His whole model is to try to innovate to drastically cut the cost of tunnelling in order to overcome the hurdles posed by legacy methods. So not very surprising to hear experts with careers wedded to the legacy models say he’s under-estimating.

He’s also built a tunnel under LA to test his theories so reasonable to think some of the theories must have shown promise.

It was also interesting to hear the media or the experts in old-school tunnelling talk about “additional cost if it involves duplicating road and rail tunnels”. Worth them having a look at the Boring Company tunnel design...is anything but traditional high cubic volume roads, and replaces the need for trains....hence the projected lower cost.
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50km tunnel under blue mtns..... Proposal

Postby outjb » Sun 20 Jan, 2019 9:41 am

Have to say it’s surprising to hear people getting a bit worked up over a tunnel under the mountains.

When you’re faced with the real alternative in the longer term of a 4-6 lane Bells Freeway bulldozed over the mountains or an even wider GNH, the thought of a tunnel well underground, without exhaust stacks/emissions, and most importantly leaves our bushland untouched might seem a little less panic-worthy.
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Re: 50km tunnel under blue mtns..... Proposal

Postby Grabeach » Sun 20 Jan, 2019 4:17 pm

Not the first time the idea of a tunnel under the Blue Mountains has been raised, though none received anywhere near the publicity routinely associated with Elon Musk. The first time I recall was 20 plus years ago. There were also a couple of letters in April 2018 mostly discussing cost , suggesting a more recent proposal. Interestingly, information on the 18km long 3.4m dia. Katoomba to Hazelbrook sewer tunnel suggests that the Musk estimate may be reasonable.
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Re: 50km tunnel under blue mtns..... Proposal

Postby mandragara » Fri 01 Feb, 2019 12:08 am

This seems almost as ludicrous as that time they wanted to built a railway through the Colo.

Musk is a scientifically under qualified dot com billionaire who outright lies in order to promote his ventures. I have no faith in him.

The Greens are great but they're still pollies and therefore a bit thick and gullible.
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