KNP name change to Kosciuszko

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KNP name change to Kosciuszko

Postby Lophophaps » Sat 02 May, 2020 2:26 pm

This report
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2006-12-05/ ... ry/2145852
says that:
"The Kosciuszko State Park was declared in 1944 and the Kosciuszko National Park in 1967."

My understanding is that Kosciusko State Park became Kosciusko National Park, and that the name was changed to Kosciuszko National Park in 1997. I am unable to find an online reference confirming or denying this. I have a number of maps showing Kosciusko NP, such as Kosciusko 1:100,000 printed in 1975, and Tim Lamble's 1979 Jagungal and the Brassy Mountains (lovely map).

Clarification would be valued. TIA.
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Re: KNP name change to Kosciuszko

Postby tastrax » Sat 02 May, 2020 2:56 pm

Check out the management plan and search for 1967 and it will give an outline of the name change

https://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/-/me ... 140319.pdf

The passage of the National Parks and Wildlife Act in
1967 (consolidated and amended in 1974)resulted in the
transfer of management responsibilities from the
Kosciusko State Park Trust to the newly-created National
Parks and Wildlife Service. This was accompanied by the
renaming of Kosciusko State Park to Kosciusko National
Park and later to Kosciuszko National Park.
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Re: KNP name change to Kosciuszko

Postby tastrax » Sat 02 May, 2020 3:04 pm

..... and more on the name change date

https://www.gnb.nsw.gov.au/place_naming ... KWwGjzsETR
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Re: KNP name change to Kosciuszko

Postby Lophophaps » Sat 02 May, 2020 4:03 pm

Phil, thanks. The links you provided support what I said. The 2006 management plan says the name went
Kosciusko State Park; then
1967 Kosciusko National Park, and
later Kosciuszko National Park.
There is no date for when the name "Kosciuszko National Park" was adopted.

My CMA 1:50,000 Khancoban first edition was printed in around 1980, and this has Kosciusko National Park, as do all my maps of that decade. So it seems that perhaps in the period 1985-2000 the name was changed to Kosciuszko NP.
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Re: KNP name change to Kosciuszko

Postby Mark F » Sat 02 May, 2020 4:48 pm

From tastrax's link Mt Kosciusko changed to Mt Kosciuszko on 18 April 1997. No reference on the gnb website for Koscius(z)ko National Park but I expect the change would be the same date or very near.

Checking a few other sources, the 2001 LPI NSW Topo map catalogue has the park shown as Kosciuszko NP while the 1:50k and 1:100k maps are shown without the z. Also the Geographic Names Board was running ads about the name change proposal in November 1996 https://trove.nla.gov.au/work/56548901?q&versionId=69531137.

From the NSW Government Gazette
GEOGRAPHICAL NAMES ACT 1966
PROPOSAL TO ALTER A GEOGRAPHICAL NAME
From Mount Kosciusko to Mount Kosciuszko
THE Geographical Names Board of New South Wales
proposes to correct the spelling of the name of Australia's
hignest mountain and invites submissions regarding the
proposal.
On IS February 1840, Paul Edmund Strzelecld was the
first European to ascend the mountain. He named it Mount
Kosciuszko in honour of the Polish freedom fighter,
General Tadeusz Kosciuszko.
Since 1841, when die name first appeared on maps, it
has been shown as Mount Kosciusko. The Geographical
Names Board, under the provisions of Section 8 of the
Geographical Names Act 1966, now proposes to alter the
name from Mount Kosciusko to Mount Kosciuszko.
Further, the Geographical Names Board invites
submissions regarding the proposed alteration of the
following geographical names:
Kosciusko (trig, station)
Kosciusko (parish, county of Wallace)
Kosciusko (parish, county of Selwyn)
Kosciusko Creek (creek)
Kosciusko National Park (reserve)
Kosciusko (locality)
Written submissions are invited and should be forwarded
to the Secretary, Geographical Names Board of N.S.W.,
P.O. Box 143. Bathurst, N.S.W. 2795, or fax (063) 33 5217
by 31 January 1997.
D. M. GRANT. AM.,
Chairman.
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Re: KNP name change to Kosciuszko

Postby north-north-west » Sat 02 May, 2020 7:33 pm

So glad this conversation is happening online rather than real life, because I get so sick of correcting the pronunciation of Kosciuszko.
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Re: KNP name change to Kosciuszko

Postby Tortoise » Sat 02 May, 2020 7:39 pm

north-north-west wrote:So glad this conversation is happening online rather than real life, because I get so sick of correcting the pronunciation of Kosciuszko.

I'd be interested to know what the 'correct' pronunciation is. I think there's quite a continuum when a word gets incorporated into a language that doesn't have phonemes that correspond with the source language. I had a Polish student once, who tried to help me use the 'right' ones...
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Re: KNP name change to Kosciuszko

Postby Lophophaps » Sat 02 May, 2020 9:20 pm

Mark, agree. Around mid-1997 seems right. Logically the national park name would change at the same time as the mountain was renamed.

https://culture.pl/en/article/what-is-t ... -there-one
"the Polish pronunciation of Kościuszko, which is Kosh-chush-ko"
The pronunciation varies depending on where you are.
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Re: KNP name change to Kosciuszko

Postby peregrinator » Sat 02 May, 2020 9:39 pm

Lophophaps wrote:Mark, agree. Around mid-1997 seems right. Logically the national park name would change at the same time as the mountain was renamed.

https://culture.pl/en/article/what-is-t ... -there-one
"the Polish pronunciation of Kościuszko, which is Kosh-chush-ko"
The pronunciation varies depending on where you are.


Um, like, so whether you're in Point Leo or Preston or, even, Poland? And in which century? This is Shtrzticczky Schtuctzff!
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Re: KNP name change to Kosciuszko

Postby north-north-west » Sun 03 May, 2020 12:24 pm

peregrinator wrote: This is Shtrzticczky Schtuctzff!


Look, his name was Strzelecki. Can't you *&%$#! Anglophones get anything right? :roll:
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Re: KNP name change to Kosciuszko

Postby crollsurf » Sun 03 May, 2020 3:38 pm

Here is what I believe is the correct pronunciation of Kosciuszko, "Kos-choos-ko"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlhqYEAGkSQ

I've always thought it disrespectful to mispronounce countries, places etc but fact is, some names are impossible for us to pronounce. The most recent for me was Qatar. Native speakers will tell you it's pronounced like Guitar with a K "Kr-tar". But they're only being polite, the correct way to pronounce Qatar is impossible for us English speakers without a lot of practice.
Last edited by crollsurf on Sun 03 May, 2020 9:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: KNP name change to Kosciuszko

Postby north-north-west » Sun 03 May, 2020 6:21 pm

crollsurf wrote:Here is what I believe is the correct pronunciation of Kosciuszko, "Kos-choos-ko"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlhqYEAGkSQ

I've always thought it disrespectful to mispronounce countries, places etc but fact is, some names are impossible for us to pronounce. The most recent for me was Qatar. Native speakers will tell you it's pronounced like Guitar with a K "Kr-tar". But their only being polite, the correct way to pronounce Qatar is impossible for us English speakers without a lot of practice.


What I was taught (by Polish parent) was:
Cos as in cost without the t; choosh, as in chook with an sh instead of the k; co, as in cot without the t. The i and the z are consonantal modifiers, in much the same way we use h in written English. Apart from stuffing that up, the biggest errors are in turning the first sibilant into a z, and lengthening two of the vowels into diphthongs.
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Re: KNP name change to Kosciuszko

Postby crollsurf » Sun 03 May, 2020 7:03 pm

Cos-choosh-co where the second h is almost none existant but still hinted. Apparently in his home town, it is pronounced differently again but I'll go with that for now.

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Re: KNP name change to Kosciuszko

Postby peregrinator » Sun 03 May, 2020 8:57 pm

north-north-west wrote:
peregrinator wrote: This is Shtrzticczky Schtuctzff!


Look, his name was Strzelecki. Can't you *&%$#! Anglophones get anything right? :roll:


Possibly not. Many Australian Anglophones seem to pride themselves on mangling the English language. Hence, Kossie being our ugly, lazy, juvenile and disrespectful way of referring to our highest peak and the national park.

Paweł Edmund Strzelecki’s family name is treated in similar fashion. Not that I actually mentioned him in my post that you quoted. Au contraire, in writing 'Shtrzticczky Schtuctzff', I was indulgently re-writing the words ’Tricky Stuff’; but I now realise I was inviting trouble in trying to be cute with my spelling. ‘Tricky Stuff’ was intended as a reference to Lophophaps’ post on a Polish pronunciation of Kościuszko, where he also provided a link to an article stating half a dozen other plausible variant pronunciations.

What’s right, what’s wrong? Very tricky. Crollsurf’s Qatar example is useful here. ‘Native speakers will tell you it's pronounced like Guitar with a K, Kr-tar'. Fine, but is the emphasis on the first or second syllable? Compare our g-TAR with USA’s GEE-tar. Other examples that are more important to me are the many variable spellings of Indigenous words in our part of the world.

Finally, I will now mention Sir Paul, as Strzelecki was also known once he’d been naturalised as a British subject in 1845. Wondering how his pronunciation of the local lingo was received in that most Anglo of Anglophone nations.
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Re: KNP name change to Kosciuszko

Postby puredingo » Mon 04 May, 2020 9:20 am

You people really need to get out walking....
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Re: KNP name change to Kosciuszko

Postby Aardvark » Mon 04 May, 2020 9:57 am

Yeah, get out and exercise your body.
The purpose of language is communication. The receiver just has to get the message and the meaning the sender is providing.
I blame our old fashioned education system for making me so pedantic about spelling and grammar all my life. Elitism i suppose.
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Re: KNP name change to Kosciuszko

Postby Tortoise » Mon 04 May, 2020 7:47 pm

A linguistic discussion. Yay!!

crollsurf wrote:Here is what I believe is the correct pronunciation of Kosciuszko, "Kos-choos-ko"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlhqYEAGkSQ

I've always thought it disrespectful to mispronounce countries, places etc but fact is, some names are impossible for us to pronounce. The most recent for me was Qatar. Native speakers will tell you it's pronounced like Guitar with a K "Kr-tar". But they're only being polite, the correct way to pronounce Qatar is impossible for us English speakers without a lot of practice.


Re Qatar: While a bit of googling hasn't helped, I assume it starts with a voiceless uvular plosive rather than our velar one. That is effectively a 'k' as in 'sky', but made further back at the uvula, which we trill when we gargle. Fun to practise, easy once you get it. The rest probably wouldn't be difficult for Aussies, but I couldn't find the name written in IPA to check.

Taking words from one language to another is fraught with challenges. How far do we go in adjusting it to our sound system, and our sociolinguistic framework?

I would argue that 'Kozzie' is a time-saving and affectionate term, much like the commonly used 'Ulvy' for 'Ulverstone' in Tassie. There I go again, saving a syllable, and a long one at that! (That's one way to usually tell if someone grew up here. Tasmania has 3 syllables, not 4, with a longer, more nasalised vowel in the 2nd syllable. And the 'i' functions as a 'y'. But I digress.) Is 'Tassie' disrespectful? Or is it different because it's ours, and we're not imposing our habits on other countries? Possibly.

Re 'Kos-choos-ko: If I remember rightly, the 'ci' and 'sz' in 'Kosciuszko' are Polish sounds I never mastered, even teaching phonetics. Few languages use them. Is it reasonable for us to approximate to 'ch' and 's'? I reckon!! Those approximations are much closer to the original than the traditional Aussie kos-i-os-ko.

The 'o' on the end is more controversial. We do have the sound, as nnw pointed out, as in 'cot' without the 't'. But we never (iirc) have that sound on the end of words. Therefore it has a sound we have in Australian English, but it doesn't fit with our sound system in terms of where the sound can occur. It's like 'Ng' in Vietnamese, or Maori, as in Ngauruhoe. We have that sound, as in the sound after the vowel in 'sing', or between vowels, as in 'singer'. But we never have it at the beginning of a syllable. And most English speakers struggle to produce it there, rather than substituting the more comfortable 'n'. Or adding things, like 'Mr Nig, or Mr En Gee'. We even use syllabic nasals in English (where we don't need a vowel), but not on their own. Mmm. Actually, we do, but that's not considered a word by most.

So, should we use the vowel we know, in a place we never use it (as in 'cot' without the 't')? I think that's pushing it, forcing us outside our sound system. Hence I find it acceptable to use the vowel sound as in 'toe' on the end.
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Re: KNP name change to Kosciuszko

Postby rcaffin » Tue 05 May, 2020 4:22 pm

Me, I refuse to even acknowledge the latest name change. It was originally named without the Z, and so it should remain. The rest is just PC.
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Re: KNP name change to Kosciuszko

Postby Zapruda » Tue 05 May, 2020 6:22 pm

If only we had the same respect for indigenous place names...
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Re: KNP name change to Kosciuszko

Postby puredingo » Tue 05 May, 2020 9:09 pm

Exactly Zap. This is the reason I’m withholding my opinion...far too a sensitive subject for me.
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Re: KNP name change to Kosciuszko

Postby north-north-west » Wed 06 May, 2020 8:18 am

Zapruda wrote:If only we had the same respect for indigenous place names...


Indeed. Even today it's a struggle to get dual naming much less full out replacement of "our" names with the old indigenous ones.
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Re: KNP name change to Kosciuszko

Postby north-north-west » Wed 06 May, 2020 8:34 am

rcaffin wrote:Me, I refuse to even acknowledge the latest name change. It was originally named without the Z, and so it should remain. The rest is just PC.


No it wasn't. Strzelecki named it and used the full Polish spelling of Kosciuszko.
Strictly speaking, it was "originally" named something else but there are limited records of the indigenous names used in the area, so we seem to be stuck with the modern name.

In some ways I do agree with your mindset. I'm not keen on the change of Niggerhead to Jaithmathang. First, the Jaithmathang group never accessed the Bogongs so it's not an associated name and many traditional custodians don't approve of it. And hiding the racism inherent in giving that name in the first place by changing the name is a lie. Face up to the history, make sure the bad name is remembered, along with the necessity for change. ,,
Then there's Yop Yop, the last (and hardest) bit at the southern end of the Prince of Wales Range. That's what Truchanas called it, so that's what I'm sticking with, even though some meal-mouthed so-and-so convinced the nomenclature board that Lithuanian swearwords are not appropriate as Tasmanian place names. Sod 'em. If it's good enough for Truchanas, it's good enough for the rest of us (and everyone I know who has been on the PoWs acknowledges that it's a fitting name for the place).

End of rant.
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