Mount Warning Closure.

NSW & ACT specific bushwalking discussion.
Forum rules
NSW & ACT specific bushwalking discussion. Please avoid publishing details of access to sensitive areas with no tracks.

Re: Mount Warning Closure.

Postby duncanm » Tue 02 Mar, 2021 11:46 am

FatCanyoner,

you make some very cogent arguments, then throw it all away with more ad-hom attacks - guilt by association and name-calling.

Can't we stick to the topic?

crollsurf - I would argue "sustainable visitor or tourist use and enjoyment" means that visitor and tourist use can be enjoyed ad-infinitum, with no increasing degradation of the area.
duncanm
Nothofagus gunnii
Nothofagus gunnii
 
Posts: 18
Joined: Thu 13 Jul, 2017 3:25 pm
Region: New South Wales

Re: Mount Warning Closure.

Postby JohnnoMcJohnno » Tue 02 Mar, 2021 12:16 pm

As a local, and someone who used to regularly walk up to the 2nd or third evac point for a bit of exercise, I find the closure extremely disappointing. It was/is my local walk. Murwillumbah looks like its surrounded by National Parks on a map, but Mt Warning is the only decent bushwalk that is a 15 minute drive from town. Every other National Park requires over an hours drive or more. There is simply not much publically accessible land in the vicinity. With respect to the aboriginal ownership issue, I have heard the Bundjalung say it is sacred, and I have heard the Minjungbal say it isn't Bundjalung country. I wish I knew what the truth was.

It certainly is a popular walk, and it's the major reason tourists come to Murwillumbah. I have met people from all over the world on the track. Chinese, Malaysians, Italians, Germans, South Africans, Finnish, you name it. The walk has been ridiculously crowded at times, with the carpark inadequate for the visitors it attracts. Rescues happen all too often, and I know of at least two deaths. The costs associated with restoring the track have been high particularly after cyclone Oswald came through.

There may be good reasons for closing the walk, but it's still disappointing, if that is the final outcome.
JohnnoMcJohnno
Atherosperma moschatum
Atherosperma moschatum
 
Posts: 68
Joined: Wed 03 Apr, 2019 8:25 pm
Region: New South Wales
Gender: Male

Re: Mount Warning Closure.

Postby CBee » Tue 02 Mar, 2021 12:49 pm

Hint: Just because you don't see harm doesn't mean it isn't there.

Hint for hint: just because you do see harm doesn't mean it is there.
CBee
Athrotaxis cupressoides
Athrotaxis cupressoides
 
Posts: 269
Joined: Fri 21 Dec, 2018 7:18 am
Region: Queensland

Re: Mount Warning Closure.

Postby freetoroam » Tue 02 Mar, 2021 1:00 pm

I'm writing this from a walking track near Mt Victoria looking over the Kanimbla Valley. The walk I'm on is no more dangerous or any less "sacred" than the walk up Mt Warning, yet one is banned and the other is ok.
It seems some above live in a very small world and need to get out more often. You'd think the open space they claim to walk through would open minds rather than close them.
Having spent some time researching the differing Aboriginal views about access it's quite surprising some would choose to insult the memory of the much respected Marlene Boyd whose family are the true custodians of the mountain in such an awful way. Aboriginal women cop it from all quarters it seems even from ignorant white folks. Her mother Millie perhaps the last connection to the people who knew the cultural stories about the mountain first hand. Her views are backed up by other elders.
When I next climb up Mt Warning, while I don't consider that I need anyone's permission, it's nice to know I'll be honouring Marlene's wishes.
User avatar
freetoroam
Nothofagus gunnii
Nothofagus gunnii
 
Posts: 24
Joined: Mon 23 Jul, 2018 8:44 am
Location: Sydney - northern suburbs
Region: New South Wales
Gender: Male

Re: Mount Warning Closure.

Postby north-north-west » Tue 02 Mar, 2021 2:02 pm

CBee wrote:
Hint: Just because you don't see harm doesn't mean it isn't there.

Hint for hint: just because you do see harm doesn't mean it is there.

So now I'm imagining things? Neat attempt at gaslighting.
"Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens."
User avatar
north-north-west
Lagarostrobos franklinii
Lagarostrobos franklinii
 
Posts: 13189
Joined: Thu 14 May, 2009 7:36 pm
Location: The Asylum
ASSOCIATED ORGANISATIONS: Social Misfits Anonymous
Region: Tasmania

Re: Mount Warning Closure.

Postby Nuts » Tue 02 Mar, 2021 3:09 pm

freetoroam wrote:Having spent some time researching the differing Aboriginal views about access it's quite surprising some would choose to insult the memory of the much respected Marlene Boyd whose family are the true custodians of the mountain in such an awful way. .


How so?, there is either a cultural connection linked to closing tracks, in which case P&W has a basis for management, or else there isn't?
The sentiment about awe and wonder (hopefully due courtesy can be assumed); why would people ticking off a climb relate their involvement to aboriginal culture?
Wild Wildest Wilderness WHA All Sensitive, All Precious!
User avatar
Nuts
Lagarostrobos franklinii
Lagarostrobos franklinii
 
Posts: 8444
Joined: Sat 05 Apr, 2008 12:22 pm
ASSOCIATED ORGANISATIONS: Summit Pooper Press
Region: Tasmania

Re: Mount Warning Closure.

Postby CBee » Tue 02 Mar, 2021 3:33 pm

So now I'm imagining things? Neat attempt at gaslighting.

Show me some facts that walking on Mt. Warning (if you know where it is) causes harms. Not posting about walking on private property or mine sites, not interested.
CBee
Athrotaxis cupressoides
Athrotaxis cupressoides
 
Posts: 269
Joined: Fri 21 Dec, 2018 7:18 am
Region: Queensland

Re: Mount Warning Closure.

Postby crollsurf » Tue 02 Mar, 2021 4:40 pm

While its well documented that the traditional Anangu owners wanted Uluru closed to climbers, Marc Hendrickx happily ignores there wishes! People like freetoroam would say that was disrespectful and insulting to the Anangu people. But when it comes to Mt Warning, Hendrickx uses the wishes of a traditional owner as an argument to keep it open. Does Hendrickx have any real interest in the traditional owners wishes unless it suits his agenda?
User avatar
crollsurf
Athrotaxis selaginoides
Athrotaxis selaginoides
 
Posts: 1456
Joined: Tue 07 Mar, 2017 10:07 am
Location: Sydney
Region: New South Wales
Gender: Male

Re: Mount Warning Closure.

Postby north-north-west » Tue 02 Mar, 2021 4:46 pm

CBee wrote:
So now I'm imagining things? Neat attempt at gaslighting.

Show me some facts that walking on Mt. Warning (if you know where it is) causes harms. Not posting about walking on private property or mine sites, not interested.


Northern NSW, not that far from Mullumbimby. Nice little walk; been up there twice, but not for a couple of decades.
All human use causes harm to the natural environment. The more heavily used a route is, the more harm there is. The more infrastructure, the more harm. Plants get trampled, weeds and pathogens are spread, wildlife is disturbed. This is why I talk about minimal impact rather than Leave No Trace, as the latter is simply not possible.
In relation to the issue of loss of access due to requests from traditional custodians, psychological harm to people is also real. Ignoring Aboriginal linkage to their lands can cause such distress. It isn't a problem to you because you aren't in the group that is harmed, but it is still a problem to others.
"Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens."
User avatar
north-north-west
Lagarostrobos franklinii
Lagarostrobos franklinii
 
Posts: 13189
Joined: Thu 14 May, 2009 7:36 pm
Location: The Asylum
ASSOCIATED ORGANISATIONS: Social Misfits Anonymous
Region: Tasmania

Re: Mount Warning Closure.

Postby CBee » Tue 02 Mar, 2021 5:23 pm

Like any part of the world, including Tasmania. As you step in the bush, you cause impact. Animal trails too. Mt. Warning is heavily trafficked: but the traffic walks on a manicured path with steps etc. and the summit has platform. So I can't see the damage to environment to the extreme of closing the track. You would cause more impact by walking in the SW Tassie, on any tracks/off-track. But in saying this, what is the point of a bushwalking forum where members advocate track closures because of impact?
As per psychological harm to aboriginal people, I can tell you (if you care, of course), I lived and worked for more than one year in a small aboriginal community not far from Coraki in the nineties, with the gurrigai. In fact just next to one of their elder leaders. And we shared chats, meals and fires almost every evening. In my free time I used to swim at the black rocks and had tens of runs up Warning to keep fit, right in the heart of Bundjalung Country. Locals knew what I was doing and I never noticed doing any psychological harm to them. I have been told so many stories but none of them about not walking on the mountain or swimming by the rocks.
CBee
Athrotaxis cupressoides
Athrotaxis cupressoides
 
Posts: 269
Joined: Fri 21 Dec, 2018 7:18 am
Region: Queensland

Re: Mount Warning Closure.

Postby freetoroam » Tue 02 Mar, 2021 6:54 pm

Crollsurf.
The situation at Mt Warning is playing out along what is becoming a well worn pathway by public sector park managers determined to close down awe and wonder regardless of the facts and consideration of the long term consequences. It's unsafe, damages the environment and it goes against someone's ideology. It is quite bizarre and unique to Australia.
At Ayers Rock the views of the old men who were born at the rock were ignored in favour of the views of a group of outsiders who moved in when there was rent to claim. I would suggest getting a copy of my book to gain a full appreciation of the injustice done. Parks Australia tied in spurious safety claims in the same way that NPWS are doing at Mt Warning. The 2 deaths at Mt Warning due to a lightning strike and a heart attack to an 80 year old on the lower part of the hill, nothing to do with the steep section of the track. At Mt Warning the views of the traditional custodians have been ignored in favour of a group that has no ties to the Mountain. To top it off there has been virtually zero environmental impact at Mt Warning despite 100000 walkers annually.
It's a pity the bushwalking community are allowing this to happen without it being challenged. Give it time and the only bushwalking you'll be doing will be on a well paved, wheel chair accessible pathway that goes around a carpark.
User avatar
freetoroam
Nothofagus gunnii
Nothofagus gunnii
 
Posts: 24
Joined: Mon 23 Jul, 2018 8:44 am
Location: Sydney - northern suburbs
Region: New South Wales
Gender: Male

Re: Mount Warning Closure.

Postby clarence » Wed 03 Mar, 2021 7:37 pm

NPWS often use very blunt instruments to manage, and transparency and consultation are not their strong points.

If the relevant parties thought this through they could make it a huge win for all involved.

Strictly limit numbers. Make it a guided walk, managed and interpreted by the Aboriginal community. Use this as a method for educate people, share their culture, and minimise environmental impact.

Funds could be used to education of white fellas and overseas tourists alike, track maintenance and interpretation.

It is more about how it is climbed, rather than a yes or no question.

There are a lot of options between open slather and completely closed.

Clarence
clarence
Athrotaxis cupressoides
Athrotaxis cupressoides
 
Posts: 311
Joined: Sun 12 Feb, 2012 7:52 pm
Region: Tasmania
Gender: Male

Re: Mount Warning Closure.

Postby wildwanderer » Wed 03 Mar, 2021 8:13 pm

clarence wrote:NPWS often use very blunt instruments to manage, and transparency and consultation are not their strong points.

If the relevant parties thought this through they could make it a huge win for all involved.

Strictly limit numbers. Make it a guided walk, managed and interpreted by the Aboriginal community. Use this as a method for educate people, share their culture, and minimise environmental impact.

Funds could be used to education of white fellas and overseas tourists alike, track maintenance and interpretation.

It is more about how it is climbed, rather than a yes or no question.

There are a lot of options between open slather and completely closed.

Clarence


Where is that like button! :D

As long as the fee is reasonable, run by npws and not by a commercial company aka scenic world/bridge climb this would be an excellent way of keeping the mountain open. And because the numbers are managed they wouldn't need multitudes of ugly safety fences and installed high traffic walk ways like royal and grand canyon.
User avatar
wildwanderer
Auctorita modica
Auctorita modica
 
Posts: 1359
Joined: Tue 02 May, 2017 8:42 am
Region: New South Wales
Gender: Male

Re: Mount Warning Closure.

Postby Nuts » Thu 04 Mar, 2021 6:15 am

In a perfect world these options (good ideas) would have already been exhausted. You'd not need a local group doing their own consultations and making their own proposals as a countermeasure to any shadowy lurking agenda.
Wild Wildest Wilderness WHA All Sensitive, All Precious!
User avatar
Nuts
Lagarostrobos franklinii
Lagarostrobos franklinii
 
Posts: 8444
Joined: Sat 05 Apr, 2008 12:22 pm
ASSOCIATED ORGANISATIONS: Summit Pooper Press
Region: Tasmania

Re: Mount Warning Closure.

Postby JohnnoMcJohnno » Thu 04 Mar, 2021 8:10 am

There might be many good ways of reconciling access with environmental, spiritual, ownership or other issues. What there has not been is any consultation locally about what could be done. It is the major tourist drawcard for Murwillumbah, and I would have thought that its potential impact on the local community would at least be discussed with them. Letters to the local MP's and Tweed Council indicate that they are either in the dark as much as anyone else (or possibly in the loop and not talking). At this point, the only official reason stated for closing the climb has been "safety issues", initially because of Covid-19, and later stated due to the integrity of the chains at the top.

No idea where this will end up, but there has certainly been no attempt to take the local community and/or the bushwalking community along with them to wherever they are going.
JohnnoMcJohnno
Atherosperma moschatum
Atherosperma moschatum
 
Posts: 68
Joined: Wed 03 Apr, 2019 8:25 pm
Region: New South Wales
Gender: Male

Re: Mount Warning Closure.

Postby dalehikes » Thu 04 Mar, 2021 4:11 pm

Freetoroam, while I am against the closure of Wollumbin, I find it incredible that you cant even attempt to refer to Uluru or Wollumbin as such. The majority of people have taken them on board and happily use them, it creates its own individual Australian identity (that no other country can copy) and were their names way before Ayers rock or Mt Warning were ever muttered. Its a simple and easy transition to make.

I'm interested to know your opinion on Kurraragin? It used to be a very popular climb and yet there is almost unanimous acceptance of it cultural sensitivity closure.
dalehikes
Atherosperma moschatum
Atherosperma moschatum
 
Posts: 83
Joined: Mon 04 Mar, 2019 11:33 am
Region: Queensland
Gender: Male

Re: Mount Warning Closure.

Postby Aardvark » Thu 04 Mar, 2021 8:41 pm

Really? Why do we all have to be the same? We're not sheep you know.
It's only a name.
You're not the boss of me.
Ever on the search for a one ended stick.
Aardvark
Athrotaxis cupressoides
Athrotaxis cupressoides
 
Posts: 329
Joined: Sat 28 Jul, 2012 6:15 am
Region: Queensland
Gender: Male

Re: Mount Warning Closure.

Postby ribuck » Fri 05 Mar, 2021 8:24 am

Names are complicated when they are politicised, but it's clear that Uluru has become the most-used name by far. The official government name is "Uluru / Ayers Rock", with a note that either or both parts may be used. Uluru was originally the name of the waterhole above Mutitjulu, not of the whole rock.

Interestingly, the adjoining resort at Yulara has been owned by the Indigenous Land and Sea Corporation since 2011 and they have chosen to keep the name "Ayers Rock Resort".
User avatar
ribuck
Athrotaxis selaginoides
Athrotaxis selaginoides
 
Posts: 1566
Joined: Wed 15 May, 2013 3:47 am
Region: Other Country
Gender: Male

Re: Mount Warning Closure.

Postby freetoroam » Fri 05 Mar, 2021 8:28 am

Kurraragin or any other place declared "sacred" by idealogues - A basic premise is that the public have a right to enjoy any established walking track on public land, and a right to negotiate access on private land. I was not aware of this one - It's now on my to to list. Thanks.
User avatar
freetoroam
Nothofagus gunnii
Nothofagus gunnii
 
Posts: 24
Joined: Mon 23 Jul, 2018 8:44 am
Location: Sydney - northern suburbs
Region: New South Wales
Gender: Male

Re: Mount Warning Closure.

Postby Nuts » Fri 05 Mar, 2021 4:25 pm

The irony there being that you provide a recognisable cultural excuse for blanket closures.

We shouldn't allow management infrastructure to be one.
Minimal Impact is reasonable, circuit bagging should be a thing (I smile)
Wild Wildest Wilderness WHA All Sensitive, All Precious!
User avatar
Nuts
Lagarostrobos franklinii
Lagarostrobos franklinii
 
Posts: 8444
Joined: Sat 05 Apr, 2008 12:22 pm
ASSOCIATED ORGANISATIONS: Summit Pooper Press
Region: Tasmania

Re: Mount Warning Closure.

Postby freetoroam » Tue 16 Mar, 2021 5:02 pm

A group of locals have started a facebook page to re-open the Mt Warning Summit walk. This is one of Australia's most popular walks. It's supported by the true custodians. Please lend your support! https://www.facebook.com/groups/427241145015683
User avatar
freetoroam
Nothofagus gunnii
Nothofagus gunnii
 
Posts: 24
Joined: Mon 23 Jul, 2018 8:44 am
Location: Sydney - northern suburbs
Region: New South Wales
Gender: Male

Previous

Return to New South Wales & ACT

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests