Wollangambe River Tragedy.

[Nuts]

No. I'd say local rangers, perhaps at senior ranger level would pretty much deal with information about remote walks in their area and given out by staff.
I'd imagine in Gloucester and the other small offices mentioned you may have even spoken to a 'ranger' ? If that is the case then there really is no excuse for 'inaccurate' information
(but then you cant really blame them for choosing what to disclose, they probably Are understaffed and overworked. Making assumptions about callers probably does save some time)
If it is coming from seasonal staff then they aren't Really 'rangers'.

[johnw]

Rangers principally do what they are told to do, and that would include who gets what sort of information. They're understaffed and underfunded and have no chance of doing everything that needs to be done or even keeping up to date with the state of the parks.
It's the bureaucrats and politicians who make the decisions on these things, not the rangers themselves.

damn right and well put.

+1. 100% accurate in my experience and I couldn't express it better. Validated by past conversations I've had with the one or two rangers and other park staff I've gotten to know personally.

Warren, I hear your pain and It's disappointing that you've had some negative experiences, but I don't think it's fair to tag all "rangers" with such vitriole. They certainly don't set the agenda and have to submit work plans to area managers and the like who, in turn, are answerable to a horrendously top heavy bureacracy and their political masters. It's often the case that rangers are forced to spend much of their time in the office writing proposals to gain funding for various projects and working on policy matters etc. I know that they can get very frustrated and embarrassed at not being able to do important field work that's needed. And they're usually very grateful for feedback from bushwalkers about park conditions, which helps with planning for when they do have field staff available to address problems. OK, we shouldn't be relied upon to do that but it's a sad fact of life that no one else is likely to, for the reasons outlined by NNW.

That said, I have also (thankfully, rarely) encountered the odd officious bureacrat when making phone enquiries. It saddens me that such people can get into those roles. But I think it's very much the exception rather than the rule.

You indicate Royal NP as one problem location. This is one of the closest reserves to home for me and I know it well, although I don't know the staff there. I think the issue there is that it's one of the most highly visited NSW parks, with a giant city plonked around it. Most of their visitors are simply looking for picnic spots, beaches and the like. Go into the (frighteningly busy) visitor centre on a weekend and spend 1/2 an hour listening to some of the inane questions that are asked. Sheesh, some people sound like they'd get lost finding their way from the car park to the toilet.

Unless you specifically asked for a ranger it's more likely that you'd be talking to a customer service officer or similar, trained to handle routine enquiries. They're often not used to fielding more advanced requests from seasoned bushwalkers/cyclists like yourself, and they tend to respond to everyone the same way, using the same canned answers.

Regardless of which park, when wanting detailed information about more remote or obscure locations I've had the most success by asking to speak to the ranger responsible for that territory and explaining my level of experience, existing knowledge or research of that area, and intentions. This has usually resulted in friendly and helpful advice. At one location some years ago the ranger was even kind enough to photocopy part of the topo map and draw on it some trackless routes he recommended, even though I hadn't specifically asked for it.

[tasadam]

They're understaffed and underfunded and have no chance of doing everything that needs to be done or even keeping up to date with the state of the parks.
It's the bureaucrats and politicians who make the decisions on these things, not the rangers themselves.

Unless you specifically asked for a ranger it's more likely that you'd be talking to a customer service officer or similar, trained to handle routine enquiries. They're often not used to fielding more advanced requests from seasoned bushwalkers/cyclists like yourself, and they tend to respond to everyone the same way, using the same canned answers.

Although this topic has nothing to do with Tasmania, I thought I would throw my hat in, sharing that in my experience these two quotes are somewhat relevant here.

Warren good luck getting the information you need. My advice would be to try and find the right person to talk to in the relevant Parks office, then go & see them & explain that you're not a weekend warrior or a Croc Dundee Wannabe, detail your experience, intentions and expectations, and see if you can work with someone to build a rapport and get the information you are after that way. Then in future you will have someone to talk to who knows you next time you are wanting something.

As for Lantana, Yuk! Good exercise with the Machete, that's about it. I grew up with it.

[Nuts]

We all like to set the balance if someone makes such strong comments and draws such one sided conclusions.

However! Whilst it might be an excuse to be understaffed and underfunded Parks aren't really so any more or less than any other public service. (They definitely don't face the same struggle At any stage that many business owners face ) If it is the case that funding/staffing plays a major role then it has always done and part of the job is dealing with that, someone Is responsible.

In amongst Warrens posts are some factual observations and these are valid aren't they?, he does offer to detail them further...
While it might also be true that (as with the other recent topics) someone else might be responsible for mapping and information it is just an assumption that these people are generally any more or less competent than public ('front line') staff, they may have even started there in the Parks case. Also (from what ive seen) its an assumption that there is any sort of meticulous planning as to what is passed on (information wise) from any individual.

(ime) Rangers are no better or worse than the average Joe. Laziness, Greed, Incompetence, Malaise and Malice aren't exclusive to mere mortals!

Getting back to the original topic, I would agree with Dave's ideas that signage at the beginning of such walks is enough. Even these start to take away responsibility.
I had a similar incident in Ettrema George long ago. It resulted in a crushed hand and luckily not tragedy. There were no signs, we tried to exit on the wrong spur and it ended in a technical climb we weren't prepared for. Thinking back perhaps if we weren't prepared for that (or to avoid it) then we hadn't done enough planning?

(edit: just to add that all these comments are with 'an ideal world' in mind, it all falls apart when things go wrong. Such accidents whilst out doing something like this really are just 'tragic', so many lives in turmoil)

[north-north-west]

(selective quoting)
Whilst it might be an excuse to be understaffed and underfunded Parks aren't really so any more or less than any other public service.

No? I'd love to do a comparison between Forestry and TasPAWS.

[Nuts]

Yer, silly me, I wasnt thinking of Forestry Tasmania
(are they a public service?)

[tasadam]

(are they a public service?)

That made me laugh out loud.

[Ent]

Forestry Tasmania is a Government Business Enterprise, not a service as such but is also one of the road authority in the state of Tasmania so allows access over roads that in private hands would be closed off. Many walks and map information was and is provided by Forestry but this gets forgotten about by their harden critics, sadly.

Anyway back on track, I am with Nuts on the thin blue line defence. There are many great people and a few bad in any organisation. But I am not sure what if any impact this had this particular event. Am I correct in assuming that there is an ongoing concern over marking the river exit point?

Brett

[Nuts]

Perhaps none Brett. They May have planned to exit earlier and missed the exit, nothing here or in the reports so far really says that. Its just suggested as a possible reason why they weren't out of there and safe. Without resorting to 'blame' it seems others, even in whats here could be equally responsible if that is a focus of concern. Somehow an assumption was made that 'parks' could be responsible. None of which really matters, they are only straws, perhaps the assumption that the sign would be easy to spot (as it may have been on the earlier trip) was equally a factor? The ideas of blame and responsibility in the wilderness interest me.

[north-north-west]

Yer, silly me, I wasnt thinking of Forestry Tasmania
(are they a public service?)

*snigger*

[WarrenH]

Scavenger or what ever you are called this month? I'm not one for admiring people who change their call signs, it is not respectful of those who read you.

"Rangers principally do what they are told to do, and that would include who gets what sort of information." - said a post Scavenger aka NNW whatever.

I dispute that. It is only lame Central Coast, Northern NSW and Victorian National Parks Rangers who do, because they are bluffed by their poor administration, to run with a western administrator's, Culture of Fear.

If you have talked to an LHPA Ranger or a State Forester? ... they are encouraging, they show and have a desire to see that we Australians enjoy our wild places, and to enjoy them fully. I suggest that you do not slag-off all Rangers. Get it together Post Scavenger, or what ever your name is this week.

Post Scavenger you called me a winger? ... that was a big mistake because on the odd occasion, although Elephants are known to forget things, I'm not an elephant.

Warren.

[Son of a Beach]

WarrenH and NNW... Some of these posts are heading into the realms of being impolite and unfriendly to other forum members and therefore are not within forum rules. Please avoid aggravating each other here any further.

[north-north-west]

*incredulous*
What did I do?

Warren:
I wasn't trying to insult any Rangers.
I was, in fact, defending them. All of them.

I've dealt with a lot of Rangers, from Tozzie to the Territory; from the Barrier, over the mountains, through the deserts, to the Western coastline. I've seen the system from within and without. And, while I would never be so foolish as to pretend that they're all angels (I could tell some right horror stories from my years with TasPAWS, for instance), Rangers are, on the whole, decent, hardworking people who really care about the parks.
But they have three sets of masters, who often give them mutually exclusive goals:
their own administration and management toffs;
the politicians;
and the general public.

They don't have it quite as bad as police, but they're in an impossible position, because no matter what they do they can't keep all their bosses happy. And they never have the time or money to do what needs to be done.

btw, I never called you a winger. Lachie Turner is a winger. Drew Mitchell is a winger. James O'Connor looks like turning into a pretty good winger. But you? No way.

[curlywood]

I agree with Dave that this area is a wilderness area and so therefore should be no signage whatsoever excepting maybe at the entrance to an area. It is unfortunate that people die in the wilderness but, in a lot of cases, this comes down to people not gaining enough experience before they go into these areas.
I myself have been lucky on a number of occasions when I was inexperienced and out of my depth. I don't regret these instances as sometimes lessons are made all the more poignant when they are unpleasant (you wouldn't make the same mistake twice would you?). And I certainly wouldn't have blamed anyone else.
I believe that stripes must be earned, so to speak, before going too far into the wilderness. The further out there you plan to go the more time should be spent gaining experience.
Talk to more experienced people, read books, get out exploring and go further each time. Bush savvy doesn't come overnight.
What an adventure!
I love it.
Speaking of such, maybe some of the people in this forum should get out there, it's a great way to relax.
Take it easy my friends.