Camping fees for Victorian National Parks

Victoria specific bushwalking discussion.
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Victoria specific bushwalking discussion. Please avoid publishing details of access to sensitive areas with no tracks.

Camping fees for Victorian National Parks

Postby tsangpo » Wed 23 Oct, 2013 8:43 am

So Dennis wants to charge for any sort of camping in every National Park in Victoria.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-10-23/g ... ection=vic

http://www.depi.vic.gov.au/forestry-and ... ation-fees
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Re: Camping fees for Victorian National Parks

Postby Travis22 » Wed 23 Oct, 2013 9:24 am

I havent read the links but as for the topic...

We were actually discussing the idea of fee's around the campfire this weekend...

With more people wanting to use the bush, easier access then ever before, cheaper and more readily available equipment, and better equipment etc... IMO something will have to be done one day in the future.

Our discussion was prompted by the fact that we have been visiting the ANP now very regularly for about half of my lifetime - say 15years. In the last few years we have personally seen a dramatic increase in the number of people out there both midweek and on the weekends.

Ive got no answers, but boy it seems like a real can of worms.

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Re: Camping fees for Victorian National Parks

Postby Hallu » Wed 23 Oct, 2013 10:48 am

There's already been an increase in camping fees in July... In Wyperfeld and Hattah-Kulkyne it went from 14 $ a night last year to 19.80 $ right now, a 40% increase, that's in no way "modest", and it's the price of a tent site in a caravan park (so with showers; flush toilets and cooking facilities)... I would agree if this increase meant better facilities, but it didn't. If they want some free campsites such as Johanna Beach, Aire River, or Lake Crosbie to stop being free, fine, but show us the improvement.
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Re: Camping fees for Victorian National Parks

Postby Earwig » Wed 23 Oct, 2013 11:10 am

Hallu wrote:There's already been an increase in camping fees in July... In Wyperfeld and Hattah-Kulkyne it went from 14 $ a night last year to 19.80 $ right now, a 40% increase, that's in no way "modest", and it's the price of a tent site in a caravan park (so with showers; flush toilets and cooking facilities)... I would agree if this increase meant better facilities, but it didn't. If they want some free campsites such as Johanna Beach, Aire River, or Lake Crosbie to stop being free, fine, but show us the improvement.


Do you want every camping spot to be a caravan park?
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Re: Camping fees for Victorian National Parks

Postby tsangpo » Wed 23 Oct, 2013 11:12 am

I think the thing that shocked my attention was charging for dispersed camping where there aren't actually facilities anywhere in NP's like the Alpine NP.
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Re: Camping fees for Victorian National Parks

Postby icefest » Wed 23 Oct, 2013 11:33 am

tsangpo wrote:I think the thing that shocked my attention was charging for dispersed camping where there aren't actually facilities anywhere in NP's like the Alpine NP.

Agreed, that's dodgy. :/
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Re: Camping fees for Victorian National Parks

Postby Hallu » Wed 23 Oct, 2013 12:16 pm

Earwig wrote:
Hallu wrote:There's already been an increase in camping fees in July... In Wyperfeld and Hattah-Kulkyne it went from 14 $ a night last year to 19.80 $ right now, a 40% increase, that's in no way "modest", and it's the price of a tent site in a caravan park (so with showers; flush toilets and cooking facilities)... I would agree if this increase meant better facilities, but it didn't. If they want some free campsites such as Johanna Beach, Aire River, or Lake Crosbie to stop being free, fine, but show us the improvement.


Do you want every camping spot to be a caravan park?


No I just want uniformity. It now costs 20 $ to camp in Hattah-Kulkyne which has pit toilets and untreated water, while the exact sames facilities are present in Lake Crosbie for free. It also used to cost 27.90 $ at Lake Catani in Mt Buffalo with flush toilets, showers and drinking water (now it's 31.9 $ so again, it has gone more expensive). Honestly, I'd prefer to pay an annual pass to Victorian parks and have cheaper campground fees. There's no point in pumping up campground prices to maintain a free access to NPs... If VIC parks need money that bad, they should just admit it. 7 $ per day as in NSW parks is perfectly acceptable, especially when you see the huge amount of work done on the VIC Parks website, where every park has a PDF detailed note with map and walks (which NSW parks don't have).
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Re: Camping fees for Victorian National Parks

Postby Snowzone » Wed 23 Oct, 2013 4:49 pm

Firstly I'm happy to pay fees to use our NP's as long as the money raised is being put back into our parks in some way. BUT its getting a bit pricey for those of us that solo camp if we are paying by the night. I would much rather see an overall pass like that used in Tassie where we can purchase something annually or a shorter time for visitors.
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Re: Camping fees for Victorian National Parks

Postby neilmny » Wed 23 Oct, 2013 5:03 pm

Read the DEPI document from page 87 on "Detailed figures on the estimated cost of providing camping facilities in parks and
reserves managed by Parks Victoria for the 2013-14 financial year are provided in Table A.1."
Basic & Very Basic (dispersed camping) cost more than 3 times ($6.7m)the Very High service camping areas ($2.1m) and more than 50% of the overall costs per annum ($12.4m)
yet they will charge $18.00 per night (see page 77) for nothing as opposed to $66.00 for the very high service powered sites.

What the :shock: is this some sort of joke :roll:
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Re: Camping fees for Victorian National Parks

Postby iGBH » Wed 23 Oct, 2013 6:12 pm

neilmny wrote:Read the DEPI document from page 87 on "Detailed figures on the estimated cost of providing camping facilities in parks and
reserves managed by Parks Victoria for the 2013-14 financial year are provided in Table A.1."
Basic & Very Basic (dispersed camping) cost more than 3 times ($6.7m)the Very High service camping areas ($2.1m) and more than 50% of the overall costs per annum ($12.4m)
yet they will charge $18.00 per night (see page 77) for nothing as opposed to $66.00 for the very high service powered sites.

What the :shock: is this some sort of joke :roll:


Then read the bit that estimates the number of users for each type of camping. Dispersed camping is done by many more people, hence lower cost.
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Re: Camping fees for Victorian National Parks

Postby mbikeboy » Wed 23 Oct, 2013 6:30 pm

Hallu wrote:In Wyperfeld and Hattah-Kulkyne it went from 14 $ a night last year to 19.80 $ right now, a 40% increase, that's in no way "modest", and it's the price of a tent site in a caravan park (so with showers; flush toilets and cooking facilities


I visited Hattah-Kulkyne mid-last year, not realising that there was a charge and subsequently never paid...I arrived at 3am on the motorbike after a 6hr ride after work, battling cold, sand, fatigue and being surrounded by hoards of kangaroos intent on knocking me over. The only "real" facilities I saw were filth-infested long-drops, and just some cleared out areas to park a 4x4 and pitch a tent.

Having just learned now of how much the new charges for use are for this area, I find rather offensive! Throughout my touring of Aus on a motorbike, most caravan parks charge $15-20, which includes showers, hot water, flushing toilets, electricity and manicured grassy areas to pitch your tent in a safe environment! Quite often on the eastern side you could negotiate a price down to a paltry $10 (being 1 person and no burden on space), and in NT you'd only pay $5!! I appreciate the fact that there are tracks to be maintained for access, etc, but charging the premium price per use for use of substantially-lesser facilities, which we already pay taxes towards to enjoy?! Many schools contribute to activities like track-building for free in their outdoor education curriculum saving the system a pretty penny. Spring St has got to be kidding...far from impressed! :(
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Re: Camping fees for Victorian National Parks

Postby mbikeboy » Wed 23 Oct, 2013 6:42 pm

Hallu wrote: Honestly, I'd prefer to pay an annual pass to Victorian parks and have cheaper campground fees


I'm very much on your side of things with this suggestion. I had a discussion not long ago with a mate about this idea. When I was a CFA volunteer, we were issued a card for free access, but there's no reason why a similar styled system could not be managed with an annual or short-stay system here. Far easier to understand and manage than a daily-pay system which discourages people from doing the right thing imo. ;)
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Re: Camping fees for Victorian National Parks

Postby tsangpo » Wed 23 Oct, 2013 6:46 pm

mbikeboy wrote:
Hallu wrote:...Many schools contribute to activities like track-building for free in their outdoor education curriculum saving the system a pretty penny. Spring St has got to be kidding...far from impressed! :(


Plus summer DEPI firefighters can do track maintenance and construction when there aren't fires to fill in time.

Also I could just imagine a ranger trying to get details out of someone that didn't want to give them to be fined halfway down a rafting trip on the Snowy or out past Mt Nelse.

Could also discourage people writing in intentions books which just makes it more expensive if rescues need to happen.
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Re: Camping fees for Victorian National Parks

Postby neilmny » Wed 23 Oct, 2013 7:11 pm

iGBH wrote:
neilmny wrote:Read the DEPI document from page 87 on "Detailed figures on the estimated cost of providing camping facilities in parks and
reserves managed by Parks Victoria for the 2013-14 financial year are provided in Table A.1."
Basic & Very Basic (dispersed camping) cost more than 3 times ($6.7m)the Very High service camping areas ($2.1m) and more than 50% of the overall costs per annum ($12.4m)
yet they will charge $18.00 per night (see page 77) for nothing as opposed to $66.00 for the very high service powered sites.

What the :shock: is this some sort of joke :roll:


Then read the bit that estimates the number of users for each type of camping. Dispersed camping is done by many more people, hence lower cost.


The bigger issue is we pay (if you pay for your water) an annual parks levy.........what is that for........let me see now.........must be for 4 or 5 nights free dispersed camping.....nice one Dennis. :wink:
Don't kid yourselves that things will improve....... it's another rip off. They even mention Devils Cove at Eildon NP that is part of the maintenance cost....it's a wreck that's been closed for years.....hasn't seen one minute of maintenance in that time.....no maintenance no cost. :evil:
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Re: Camping fees for Victorian National Parks

Postby mbikeboy » Wed 23 Oct, 2013 7:13 pm

tsangpo wrote:
mbikeboy wrote:
Hallu wrote:...Many schools contribute to activities like track-building for free in their outdoor education curriculum saving the system a pretty penny. Spring St has got to be kidding...far from impressed! :(


Plus summer DEPI firefighters can do track maintenance and construction when there aren't fires to fill in time.

Also I could just imagine a ranger trying to get details out of someone that didn't want to give them to be fined halfway down a rafting trip on the Snowy or out past Mt Nelse.

Could also discourage people writing in intentions books which just makes it more expensive if rescues need to happen.



Agreed totally Tsango!! One other concern by this sudden jump in prices, is that people will find their own tacks and spots, which can lead onto bigger things like being lost, triggering a bushfire, search and rescue (putting those at risk). It's a stupid idea implemented by people who don't use or appreciate the outdoors, and potentially could put many people at risk.

I always tell dad where I'm going, via which routes, a list of my gear, highlighted map, and an eta for return. Doesn't matter whether it's in 4x4, motorbike or on foot. That attitude came in handy once when I got caught in a massive thunderstorm in the High Country for 2 days, and he rang up the Mansfield Police to inform them I was late for a return. He was able to give them the list of my entire load-out, and told them I knew the area very well. The cops were great about putting him at ease and assured him that I was well prepared and weren't concerned. 2 days later I reported in at the station to be greeted with a hot coffee, smiles and a thanks for doing the right thing! I doubt people are going to do this if it means avoiding paying or being where they're supposed to tbh, and this worries me. ;)
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Re: Camping fees for Victorian National Parks

Postby Lophophaps » Thu 24 Oct, 2013 7:58 am

At the same time that fees are going up, funds and staff are being stripped. Not good.
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Re: Camping fees for Victorian National Parks

Postby sambar358 » Thu 24 Oct, 2013 9:55 am

If people want to use caravan-park-type facilities in NP's with toilets, showers, provided firewood, serviced camp sites or cabins with water, power etc then IMO they should be expected to pay a reasonable fee for it. However those that prefer to disperse camp where-ever they like and require nothing apart from a bit of flat ground to pop a tent on should not be slugged with any fees. These are in essence just "NP access fees" under the guise of a daily or annual fee for the use of non-existant facilities. The quote below from the RIS should also be of some concern as it clearly implies that the Vic Gov intends to extend access/usage fees outside the NP's to include other public land classifications....an annual "camping pass" and "annual vehicle acces fee" proposals to me just smacks of a revenue grab and if implimented we'll see very little or likely none of the money raised go back where it should for the maintenance and protection of our NP's or valued public land areas.

From the RIS : "These revenue estimates are modelled on full implementation of the proposed fees across all parks and reserves managed by Parks Victoria. In practice, a staged implementation is proposed, with permit camping within national parks being implemented during 2013/14. Fees associated with dispersed camping, such as a ‘camping pass’ and other tenures such as other Crown land and forests will be implemented in subsequent years once legislative and/or regulatory processes are completed. As such, the actual revenue yield will be less than modelled here in the early years." Cheers

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Re: Camping fees for Victorian National Parks

Postby Snowzone » Thu 24 Oct, 2013 2:53 pm

I think this is going to end up costing the government more money than they think they are going to raise out of this.
Take the Grampians for an example; a good percentage of people that camp in the Gramps already avoid paying the camping fees now because half the campgrounds are nowhere near Brambuk where you are supposed to pay the permit fee. OK yes you can phone and pay by credit card but most people cannot get any service at a lot of the campgrounds. Its a stupid setup already and raising prices will only encourage more people to avoid paying.
Now of course to combat this they will have to have Parks employees running around all over the place checking to see everyone is legal! As if that's going to happen, they don't have enough employees now. And if they're all busy running around chasing camping fees who is actually going to be doing any maintenance anyway! :evil:
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Re: Camping fees for Victorian National Parks

Postby Lophophaps » Thu 24 Oct, 2013 8:11 pm

Snowzone wrote:I think this is going to end up costing the government more money than they think they are going to raise out of this.
Take the Grampians for an example; a good percentage of people that camp in the Gramps already avoid paying the camping fees now because half the campgrounds are nowhere near Brambuk where you are supposed to pay the permit fee. OK yes you can phone and pay by credit card but most people cannot get any service at a lot of the campgrounds. Its a stupid setup already and raising prices will only encourage more people to avoid paying.
Now of course to combat this they will have to have Parks employees running around all over the place checking to see everyone is legal! As if that's going to happen, they don't have enough employees now. And if they're all busy running around chasing camping fees who is actually going to be doing any maintenance anyway! :evil:


Too true. I have no difficulty about a modest fee for something that gives more than a remote camp site. The places I go to often start at focal points, such as the foot of Mt Rosea in the Grampians, Round Mountain in Koscy, and Fish River going to the Walls in Tassie. But a few hours later it's often goodbye to tracks, people and recognised camp sites.

I don't know how much a ranger earns, but it would have to be low to cover the cost of enforcing camping fees. In any case, I seek the remote places and the ranger will not easily come across me, or people like me.
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Re: Camping fees for Victorian National Parks

Postby Hallu » Thu 24 Oct, 2013 9:18 pm

A ranger earns about 40k before taxes, at least that's what a NT guide told me last year when I asked him why he was a guide rather than a ranger. And I don't think I've ever seen a ranger being peckish about fees, they have so much else to do. What would be the point of him asking for trouble ? It was like when bus drivers were supposed to control fraud as well... The hope is that people abide by the rules, but with such a rapid increase in prices, foreign tourists will have no remorse just leaving early in the morning without paying...

To me the main problem I face is this : free NP campgrounds are just as scenic and have the same level of maintenance as 20 $ campgrounds. That's not right. The most famous example are Lake Crosbie, Johanna Beach and Aire River. So when you go elsewhere and have to cough up 20 $, that's a bit irritating.

And as mentionned many times before, we would all like to see EXACTLY how the fees we pay are used to maintain the parks. That'd make the pill easier to swallow... We don't mind paying for parks, we mind not seeing any improvement despite increases in price. We'd all like some sort of newsletter with all the good that has been done somewhere in our NPs (like "wild goats have been removed from..." or "thanks to your money we build a new track/bird hide/campground there").
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Re: Camping fees for Victorian National Parks

Postby madmacca » Thu 24 Oct, 2013 10:00 pm

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Re: Camping fees for Victorian National Parks

Postby vicpres » Sat 26 Oct, 2013 10:04 pm

Bushwalking Victoria will be making a detailed submission in response to this proposal. Anyone is able to make their own submission direct to DEPI or alternatively can make their views known to BWV or by posting on this forum. While it is still early in the process I (I am BWV vice-president) can pretty safely say that we will be arguing strongly that where no facilities (the minimum being a toilet) are provided there should be no charge. We agree that there is currently a deal of inconsistency of charges and their application and this should be addressed.

We would also want to see not just an assurance, but legislation that ensures that camping fees collected are used by Parks Vic & DEPI for providing and maintaining camp facilities and not just tipped into general revenue. We would also NOT want to see funding to Parks Vic reduced even further by the amount of revenue from camping fees.
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Re: Camping fees for Victorian National Parks

Postby Lophophaps » Mon 28 Oct, 2013 3:28 pm

Chis, thanks. I would go a bit further. While bushwalkers tend to leave no trace - sadly not always - it is often the non-bushwalkers that cause more impact. I have seen this a few times. On one occasion we were ensconced in our tents, stoves and maybe a small fire (can't recall). The other half had a huge and I mean really big fire, litter and bottles. They were creating damage by driving off the camp site, flattening bush. This may not be representative but should perhaps be mentioned. The trouble is that it's a value judgement and will be almost impossible to enforce. One wit said that there should be security cameras, but was voted down in favour of ... land mines. I cannot possibly comment on this.
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Re: Camping fees for Victorian National Parks

Postby Earwig » Mon 28 Oct, 2013 3:41 pm

The regualtory statement also says: "camping fees will be introduced for forests and other areas of public land". In time it won't be just national parks but all public land that these camping fees will apply to.
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Re: Camping fees for Victorian National Parks

Postby sjm » Tue 29 Oct, 2013 11:06 am

I think this proposal raises more questions than it answers, particularly in the area of overnight hiking.

As a bushwalker/hiker/remote camper, I don't care about roofed accommodation or showers, and only occasionally stay in serviced campgrounds. I estimate that over the past 30 odd years, I've spent more than 1000 nights camping in remote, unserviced locations, and over the past 12 months I've forked out several hundred dollars for overnight hiking at the Prom, car-camping at Buffalo, and canoeing along the Glenelg River, so I am certainly not opposed to paying.

The introduction of a hiking permit seems to be a separate issue to the camping fees. This is an area that needs clarification. When and where is the hiking permit appropriate? If I do an overnight hike in Lerderderg, camping in the bush with no facilities, do I need a permit? It's clear that if I camp by the car at O'Briens Crossing, then I'll need a Mid-level permit, and pay $37.80 for it. But if I walk a few hundred metres upstream, and camp by the river, how is that classified? Does that become a Very-Basic site, so I pay $19.30?

As for needing a hiking permit for the alpine area, this really needs to be clarified. The Razorback to Feathertop is probably a good candidate, as it will ease the stress on the toilet at Federation hut, but for all overnight walks on the high plains? Clarification is required. The $10 booking fee for an overnight hiking permit needs to be addressed as well.

It's interesting that the proposal states that the cost of track maintenance is not covered by the camping fee. The camping fee only covers facilities at a campground, such as providing a toilet and signage. So why then, are they proposing a remote area hiking fee? I presume it's to cover the cost of maintaining toilets at places like Bivouac hut and Cleve Cole? But what about areas where there aren't toilets? Or even tracks?

It seems to me that the annual camping pass is kind of pointless - it's only valid in a handful of very obscure parks. Having an annual pass will not allow you to camp in the popular parks, you'll still need to purchase permits in addition to holding an annual pass.

I really think this document should be in two parts - one for car-based, campground patrons who expect toilets and fireplaces (essentially the caravan park experience in the bush), and one for bushwalkers and hikers who don't want or expect any services or facilities.
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Re: Camping fees for Victorian National Parks

Postby sambar358 » Tue 29 Oct, 2013 1:53 pm

This "user pays" proposal goes way beyond just targetting bush walkers by way of daily access/camping fees as there are a variety of user-groups who have an overnight presence in a Vic NP without actually being a bushwalker as such that these would also apply to. As a deer hunter I spend around 40-50 days a year in the Apline National Park on 4-7 day backpacking trips hunting sambar deer in remote country within the Park. So I'm essentially (for the purpose of a fee application) a bushwalker too....but with a rifle ! And there are plenty like me who do the same each year. So now it seems that we are going to be charged a daily fee for doing this too or maybe Parks haven't thought about that yet.....and the other regular Parks users such as fishermen, fossickers, mountain & trail bike riders, 4WD'ers, horse riders and all the rest. I'm sure they won't be targeting "just" bushwalkers but working out a system to get everyone coughing-up may be a bit of a challenge I think. I'm opposed to any sort of fees beyond what currently apply for Parks caravan park camping and cabin type accommodation...if you want the comfort of the serviced facilites then there should be a reasonable fee paid. If you prefer like I do to get into the pack and head-off cross-country and camp in the bush far away from anything and any body....then this should not attract any sort of a "service fee" at all. To me this all smacks of a revenue raising exercise where the cost of administration will far outweigh revenue raised, we'll see little or none of this ploughed-back into our Parks and our Vic PV staff will start to morph into traffic wardens like they are in the Kosi Park around Thredbo.....checking cars for valid parking stickers and writing vistors up with a hefty fine for overstaying their permit ! Cheers

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Re: Camping fees for Victorian National Parks

Postby vicpres » Tue 29 Oct, 2013 8:56 pm

I found out a bit of background to this proposal today.

Firstly, don't blame Parks Victoria. My information is that it was proposed from the Minister's office and senior people in Parks and Department of Environment and Primary Industries (DEPI) were forced to sign confidentiality agreements prior to being briefed on the details (so much, yet again, for open and transparent government). Furthermore, the details of the proposal were leaked to the media, forcing the Minister to publicly release the full details before he was ready to do so.
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Re: Camping fees for Victorian National Parks

Postby Hallu » Tue 29 Oct, 2013 10:57 pm

The fact that it wasn't intended to be made public right until the end is clearly a sign that all these new fees are not intended to help taking care of the parks...
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Re: Camping fees for Victorian National Parks

Postby Snowzone » Wed 30 Oct, 2013 7:44 am

vicpres wrote:I found out a bit of background to this proposal today.

Firstly, don't blame Parks Victoria. My information is that it was proposed from the Minister's office and senior people in Parks and Department of Environment and Primary Industries (DEPI) were forced to sign confidentiality agreements prior to being briefed on the details (so much, yet again, for open and transparent government). Furthermore, the details of the proposal were leaked to the media, forcing the Minister to publicly release the full details before he was ready to do so.

Thanks for passing on information Chris.
I don't think anyone is blaming Parks, we all know that most Parks staff feel the same way we do and are flat out trying to give us the best possible experiences in our National Parks.
This is a government decision that stinks of a blatant grab for cash.
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Re: Camping fees for Victorian National Parks

Postby Hallu » Wed 30 Oct, 2013 2:07 pm

With stupid measures like this, you're gonna see more fraud, then park rangers won't care about catching the culprits since they're against this increase, and the government can't employ people to do it as it would destroy their profits... So in the end all they'll gain is impopularity and not even more money.
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