Deer Control Bogong High Plains resumes for Summer

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Deer Control Bogong High Plains resumes for Summer

Postby Xplora » Wed 22 Nov, 2017 8:16 am

This is a copy of the email I received regarding operations for the summer

Parks Victoria has commenced the 2017-2018 Deer Control Trial on the Bogong High Plains.
Please find attached information regarding the program and upcoming ground shooting operations.
In summary please note:

1. Contract operation will take place from Monday 4th to Monday 11th December in Treatment Area D. In general, the operation will start in the late afternoon/early evening and continue until just after midnight. This may change depending on the results. The contractor will be using an All-Terrain Vehicle along the Fainter Fire Trail to access parts of their control area.

2. ADA and SSAA operation, in Treatment Area B, is scheduled to start on Thursday 7th December and will continue until Thursday 14th. Volunteer activities also start in the afternoon and continue until just after midnight.

1718_Map_Treatment Area B.pdf
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1718_Map_Treatment Area D.pdf
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Should anyone observe illegal deer hunting in the park then please report it to the Parks office in Mt.Beauty. We found a headless carcass just off the road near Langford West on Monday. If you have any concerns regarding the control operations or the activities of those involved then this should also be discussed with Parks Mt. Beauty.
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Re: Deer Control Bogong High Plains resumes for Summer

Postby neilmny » Wed 22 Nov, 2017 8:54 am

Xplora, thanks for this info.
We'll be up there part of the week before the 4th. So that's worked out well.
What is the reg on deer hunting in the area. None or deer stalkers only?
Thanks.
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Re: Deer Control Bogong High Plains resumes for Summer

Postby Xplora » Thu 23 Nov, 2017 5:16 am

No hunting of any kind on BHP apart from those involved in the control during the times stated. The deer we saw shot was between the two campsites which are being used by school outdoor ed groups currently. Likely shot at night under spot but a pro job of taking the head for a trophy as it was skinned past the forequarter. If anyone is unsure of where hunting is allowed then you can view maps here
http://www.gma.vic.gov.au/hunting/deer/ ... -locations

Spotlighting is prohibited on all public land.
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Re: Deer Control Bogong High Plains resumes for Summer

Postby neilmny » Thu 23 Nov, 2017 6:34 am

I saw one a couple of years back that was less than a 100 meteres off BHP Rd. near Watchbed Ck. I didn't go and inspect it. I can't imagine that it dropped from old age. Looked like a potential spotlight case given the proximity to the road. Will keep an eye out next week.
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Re: Deer Control Bogong High Plains resumes for Summer

Postby Xplora » Fri 16 Feb, 2018 7:30 am

For information - a copy of the email regarding the next operation about to start.

Parks Victoria wishes to advise of upcoming ground shooting operations as part of the 2017-2018 Deer Control Trial on the Bogong High Plains from Monday 19 February to Sunday 11 March 2018.
In summary please note:
Contract operations will take place:
Monday 19 February – Thursday 22 February 2018 in Treatment Area D (attached).
Monday 5 March – Saturday 10 March 2018 in Treatment Area B & D (attached)
In general, the operation will start in the late afternoon/early evening and continue until just after midnight. This may change depending on the results. The contractor will also be using an All-Terrain Vehicle along the Fainter Fire Trail to access parts of their control area.
ADA and SSAA operations will take place Friday 23 February – Thursday 1 March 2018 in Treatment Area B (attached).
Volunteer activities also start in the afternoon and continue until just after midnight.
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Re: Deer Control Bogong High Plains resumes for Summer

Postby Xplora » Sat 10 Mar, 2018 5:21 am

For information - a copy of the email regarding the next operation about to start.

Parks Victoria wishes to advise of upcoming ground shooting operations as part of the 2017-2018 Deer Control Trial on the Bogong High Plains between Tuesday 20 March to Sunday 8 April 2018.

In summary please note:

1. ADA and SSAA operations will take place Tuesday 20 March – Monday 26 March 2018 in Treatment Area B (attached).

2. Contract operations will take place Tuesday 3 April – Sunday 8 April 2018 in Treatment Area B & D (attached)

Note: In general both Volunteer and Contractor activities will start in the late afternoon/early evening and continue until just after midnight. This may change depending on the results. The contractor will also be using an All-Terrain Vehicle along fire trails to access parts of the control area.
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Re: Deer Control Bogong High Plains resumes for Summer

Postby sambar358 » Sat 10 Mar, 2018 6:46 am

Parks are certainly giving the sambar a flogging this summer Xplora......how are they actually going number-wise though ?

It seems that PV will be giving aerial culling using helicopters and pro-shooters a go in May this year on the Bogong High Plains and an area NE of Licola which would most-likely be on the Howitt HP where some trial ground culling has been going on. Parks must have a great big bag of $$$$ for this as keeping a helo in the air and paying for the support crew will be very serious dollars indeed. I find it interesting that Parks are quite comfortable embracing shooting sambar deer from an aerial platform yet doing exactly the same for feral horses is not even on the short-list. Here is some information on the proposed aerial culling of sambar deer in these areas which I would expect to be closed to the public over the duration of the cull. Cheers

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Deer cull: Aerial shooting trial in Alpine National Park

KATH SULLIVAN, The Weekly Times
February 28, 2018 12:00am
Subscriber only
HELICOPTERS and paid shooters will be used to cull deer in a Victorian national park for the first time.

Parks Victoria chief conservation scientist Mark Norman confirmed a three to five-day aerial shooting trial would take place in May, but would not specify which dates.

The aerial cull trial is part of a wider deer-control program in the Alpine National Park.

“The overall trial is occurring in four relatively small focused areas which contain sensitive alpine ecological communities, susceptible to damage from deer.” Dr Norman said.

“Two of these areas occur on Bogong High Plains, near Falls Creek, and two in the Southern Alps, north of Licola.

“The aerial trial will be undertaken in an area of the park that is not open to recreational hunting, and outside the area that is the focus of the ground shooting trial.”

The Australian Deer Association and Sporting Shooters Association of Australia are working with Parks Victoria as part of the wider trial.

Australian Deer Association spokesman Barry Howlett said helicopters should be used as the last resort on welfare, economic and social grounds.

He said aerial culling of deer had had “varying success” in NSW and South Australia.

“Parks Victoria has a lot of work to do before there are any guns in the sky,” he said. “Our clear expectation is that there will be robust monitoring to ensure that any aerial culling is both humane and necessary.”

Sporting Shooters Association of Australia’s Victorian spokesman, David Laird, said “helicopter culling may be appropriate in some circumstances” but recreational hunters should be seen as the first option to cull deer.

“Deer hunters are estimated to have taken nearly 100,000 deer in Victoria in 2016 and contribute in a very significant way to overall population control” he said.

Parks Victoria said the trial was a chance to assess the effectiveness, efficiency and cost of aerial shooting in Victoria.
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Re: Deer Control Bogong High Plains resumes for Summer

Postby Xplora » Sun 11 Mar, 2018 5:31 am

Sambar, I don't think the helicopter will be used on BHP and I would suggest its use will not be ongoing. I met David Laird a little over a month ago as we spoke of some ongoing problems associated with illegal hunting. He seems a very nice man but wrong about the use of volunteers long term. As we have discussed before, they cannot keep up with the pros and are proving to be more expensive. The entire program is one huge trial and they have to evaluate the various ways of control to work out what gives best 'bang for buck' long term and when the evaluation period is over they will determine which method continues. I don't have the latest figures but they will send them to me annually and I will post. I should get a call from the ranger in charge shortly so if I talk to him I may find out. Mostly I am out and miss the call. Operations on BHP have ramped up because they will not work over winter and the thick vegetation lower down where there is no snow is, as you know, not conducive to bagging large numbers. There are lots of deer down low now so you should head up this way. Mornings are cool to cold and fewer flies around. We have one in the fridge now to process.
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Re: Deer Control Bogong High Plains resumes for Summer

Postby sambar358 » Sun 11 Mar, 2018 7:17 am

PV were always going to give aerial shooting a go with this trial but I think they'll quickly find with sambar that it'll be hard to justify the cost with the numbers likely to be shot. Sambar don't "herd" like red and fallow deer so they'll likely be encountered singly or in a small group of 2-3 animals and they'll mostly be in the heavy bush rather than the open country so that'll present some challenges for the pilot and shooter. So while they may get a few the cost will be the killer I think and I understand from talking to a NSW Parks contract helicopter pilot a couple of years ago that it cost about $5000 an hour to keep their Squirrel in the air and pay for the ground support crew, fuel etc. They were shooting pigs and goats mostly in NSW Parks in the Hunter valley.....so a "more target rich environment" compared to sambar in the ANP.

I tend to agree with your view of the current volunteer hunter trial and expect Parks to discontinue that in its current form in favor of using the less labor intensive professional shooters who seem to be getting better results for much the same or slightly less cost. But in defense of the use of the volunteer hunters, these people are giving their time and effort free to PV and being involved has cost them all a reasonable amount of money in fuel and time that could have been spent doing other things elsewhere. The professional shooters on the other hand are charging PV a significant amount of money for their effort but the trade-off is the saving of money and time that PV don't have to commit to the volunteer hunter involvement. The pro shooters of course have all the current stealthy (and illegal to sporting shooters) equipment including night vision & thermal imaging optics, suppressors and self-loading semi-automatic firearms.....plus exclusive access to areas not allocated to the volunteer hunters. So given all that you would expect them to do better but at a cost which I'll add will pale into insignficance when the bill for 4 or 5 days aerial shooting comes in and is balanced against the total of deer taken. But even given this huge effort on the deer on the BHP.....the totals are still relatively small given the likely deer numbers and may not even equate to the annual natural increase and then of course those killed will be quickly replaced by animals from outside the cull areas.

But the whole thing has been an interesting exercise and no-doubt a learning one for Parks.....once the trial concludes and they assess all the information gained it will be interesting to see what their plans for deer control on the BHP will be for the future as most-certainly the deer (and the perceived problems caused by them) will be there for ever. Cheers

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Re: Deer Control Bogong High Plains resumes for Summer

Postby Xplora » Mon 12 Mar, 2018 6:23 am

sambar358 wrote:I tend to agree with your view of the current volunteer hunter trial and expect Parks to discontinue that in its current form in favor of using the less labor intensive professional shooters who seem to be getting better results for much the same or slightly less cost. But in defense of the use of the volunteer hunters, these people are giving their time and effort free to PV and being involved has cost them all a reasonable amount of money in fuel and time that could have been spent doing other things elsewhere.


My understanding is the volunteers are provided with fuel, food and accommodation money.for their travel to and from. Some work on tracks to give them access has been expensive. This was all about making sure overgrown bush did not scratch their vehicles. The pro shooters are now working in the same area as the volunteers (at different times) so a comparison can be made directly. There are no plans at this stage to stop the volunteer program but I think enthusiasm for it may drop when they are not getting the associated benefit for their labours. The respective associations are still keen to have some level of involvement but I am suspicious of their motives and a similar view to mine has been expressed to me by someone involved in the program. I agree that the helicopter trial will not be sustainable and those running the show from PV would know it as well. They also know they are not accounting for the annual increase so at what point do they say they can do nothing about the problem or take more drastic measures as we have discussed before? As to Sambar not herding, I can take you to a place where you will see them thick on the ground. Someone had a shot at one and missed. Sixty odd metres on another lay dead from that shot. Mostly though they are solitary animals as you say.
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Re: Deer Control Bogong High Plains resumes for Summer

Postby neilmny » Mon 12 Mar, 2018 8:19 am

Some interesting comments there xplora.
I find it hard to believe that the volunteers would have insisited on hedge trimming to protect their vehicles before they would be involved.
Looks more like PV wasting money to protect their a#$es again.
It's drawing a long bow to call compensation of costs to provide a service to PV a benefit.
Just because an enthusiast is engaged rather than a professional doesn't make them any less deserving of cost recovery.
Why is the limited money PV has being spent (ie. wasted) on helicopters when those running the program (ie. responsible) would know it will not be sustainable.

Not having a crack at you xplora just curious as to the strong thoughts on the volunteer shooters.
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Re: Deer Control Bogong High Plains resumes for Summer

Postby Xplora » Mon 12 Mar, 2018 1:37 pm

neilmny wrote:Some interesting comments there xplora.
I find it hard to believe that the volunteers would have insisited on hedge trimming to protect their vehicles before they would be involved.
Looks more like PV wasting money to protect their a#$es again.


I do not disagree. I can't say if the volunteers raised it as a concern but then what would happen if one decided to put a claim in for compensation because of the damage to the vehicle. This is not a consideration for the pro hunters.

neilmny wrote:It's drawing a long bow to call compensation of costs to provide a service to PV a benefit.
Just because an enthusiast is engaged rather than a professional doesn't make them any less deserving of cost recovery.


Agree again but it comes down to the best way to spend the money to achieve the outcome and compensation for costs still comes out of the budget and if they cannot return a number appropriate to the cost then there is no comparison. Other cost associated with the volunteers is supervision by PV staff which is not required with the pro hunters.

neilmny wrote:Why is the limited money PV has being spent (ie. wasted) on helicopters when those running the program (ie. responsible) would know it will not be sustainable.

Not having a crack at you xplora just curious as to the strong thoughts on the volunteer shooters.


Because as a trial they need to investigate all possible measures to show which is most effective and also which is not otherwise someone will have a go at them for not considering all possibilities. The trial has progressed in many ways and PV staff are on a steep learning curve. All operations are now in the evening and night and the volunteers have the use of thermal imagery. This has been quite effective. Once a target is spotted with the thermal (this is not night vision) they hit it with the spot and take a shot. The pros have similar technology but also have night vision scopes and suppressors so there is not spot light. At the end of the trial the whole thing will be laid out on the table to judge. The helicopter trial is so far in one area only. I have been critical of some aspects of the trial also.
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Re: Deer Control Bogong High Plains resumes for Summer

Postby sambar358 » Mon 12 Mar, 2018 7:49 pm

Some interesting info there Xplora.......and yep, with this sort of trial (and error) all possibilities need to be investigated thoroughly so an effect plan can be formulated for the future. To get the numbers to make a difference daytime hunting was always going to be ineffective as even for good experienced hunters the sambar will beat you most times....but it needed to be tried of course. When cost is balanced against effort by PV it seems that the pro-shooters are give more "bang for the buck" but then they have the advantage of all the sneaky gear that the volunteer hunters do not. Sambar very quickly learn what a big light in the night means and most will react very quickly to a spotlight. NV scopes, suppressors and semi-auto rifles certainly make it easier for the pro shooters. Will taking a hundred sambar off the BHP each year make any sort of difference ? Time will tell I guess.

I find your comments on PV's reasons for expenditure on track clearing for the volunteer hunters an interesting slant on what I would thought should have been just a normal process for this program. If vehicle usage around the control areas is required then a reasonable track network should be available for that and of course now that the program seems to have moved to spotlighting at night rather than daytime bush hunting then overgrown tracks and poor access would impact on the level of visibility in a lot of that country at night. While it might be acceptable for PV to scratch-up and damage their taxpayer funded 4WD's pushing scrub and bush bashing I think that it's unreasonable to expect the same to be done by the volunteer hunters who of course are using their own often very expensive 4WD's in this program. For the overall effectiveness of these sorts of programs providing good access for "the workers" is just part of the deal really.....if Parks see this as a negative against the volunteer hunter program then they need to step back a bit and re-think that view IMO. And an offshoot of any track clearing of course is a better network of driveable (and walkable) trails throughout the Park which would aid fire suppression, search and rescue efforts and enhance general access for both Parks staff and the visiting public.

While I can't speak for SSAA I can certainly offer the view that ADA doesn't see getting open access for seasonal deer stalking on the BHP as an achievable aim.....it has been "no hunting" for 30+ years since the ANP was created and I think it will remain as such. But now of course we are seeing the results of this with sambar deer numbers quite high and environmental damage evident. The BHP has been a sambar sanctuary for 30+ years and I don't see removing a 100 or so deer from the area annually via a culling program making much difference at all. There is probably scope within the current vast "no hunting" area to pull those boundaries in a bit.....remember initially ALL the Bogong Unit was "no hunting" then some areas were opened up a number of years ago to seasonal stalking.....maybe that needs to be re-visited at some stage. There is certainly keen interest in the deer problems on the BHP from certain elements within the hound hunting fraternity to "fix" Parks problem sambar deer via permitting hound hunting in the Park......and I understand that meetings have been held with government officials to achieve this aim. But essentially this is just a lot of talk and bravado and nothing will come of that....ever. I'm sure PV would rather a sambar deer behind every tree in the ANP than permit open slather hound hunting in Parks.....in this case the sambar would be the lesser of the two evils by a long stretch !

I doubt if any of the volunteer hunters are using their involvement in the cull to "suss out" the area for future illegal hunting activities. These hunters are giving freely of their own time that could certainly be spend doing other things....including hunting sambar without the confines and constraints of the BHP program. All these hunters have passed a comprehensive theory and practical test to become accredited to participate in these programs and they are all thoroughly vetted by ADA before being approved for participation. So a lot of hoops to jump through and quite a bit of time, effort and cost.....just to get on the list. There is no doubt that much of the BHP is getting illegally hunted and this is nothing new really but this is a GMA /PV/ VicPol enforcement issue and not something that should be leveled on the volunteer hunter program as a whole. I find the PV undertone of "distrust" of involving volunteer hunters in this program as being typical of Parks attitude at all levels to legal deer hunting in Parks and they need to address this, accept it and simply get on with their job......like the sambar....we're here to stay !

My comment on sambar "not herding" was to form a comparison for the effectiveness of helicopter culling on deer species that do.....especially red and fallow deer. Helicopter culling of red deer in particular in New Zealand was very effective for 3 reasons : very high deer numbers, open tussock tops and the deer tending to mob-up making them relatively easy to spook into the open country, fly up to and shoot most of the deer in the mob. In NZ it was common for a good pilot and shooter to shoot and recover in excess of 100 red deer in a day....but they were in it for the $$$ as there was big money to be made with the export market to Europe for wild-shot NZ venison. Here......sambar mostly are encountered in small groups or singly and often in heavy bush where they'd be hard to spot from above. Several times in more recent years while backpacking I have glassed up to 30 sambar feeding on a steep face that may be the size of a few footy fields and on a bit of private country on the edge of the ANP I counted over 50 animals one evening along a 2km stretch of back bush line. But of course....fire one shot and they all instantly vanish......and they all become far more wary next time they venture out from cover. I think they will struggle with the helicopter getting the sort of numbers to make that method viable and economic....but this of course is a trial and all potential control methods need to be investigated for their effectiveness or lack of.

And then of course there are all those pesky and untouchable feral horses that also love mushing-up the sensitive peat bogs and heath lands on the BHP and elsewhere.......but ground and aerial shooting of them would be political suicide of course despite it being considered by many as the most effective method of reducing their numbers in the most time effective and economical way. Interesting times ahead. Cheers

s358
Last edited by sambar358 on Tue 13 Mar, 2018 6:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Deer Control Bogong High Plains resumes for Summer

Postby Xplora » Tue 13 Mar, 2018 6:04 am

sambar358 wrote: Will taking a hundred sambar off the BHP make any sort of difference ? Time will tell I guess.

They likely know already that it won't. We all know it won't. We need the population on BHP slashed in the thousand each year. Shooting of any kind will not achieve this.

sambar358 wrote: While I can't speak for SSAA I can certainly offer the view that ADA doesn't see getting open access for seasonal deer stalking on the BHP as an achievable aim.

BHP will always be a no go but the ADA and SSAA are looking to promote themselves as responsible conservationists and a part of the solution to the deer problem. While I am not saying they are not responsible I would (and have previously) discounted their statistics. This has been discussed before on this or a similar thread but again for this, hunters are too selective and prefer not to take the breeding females unless they want dog meat. I don't think access in the past 30 years would have made the current problem any better.

sambar358 wrote: I'm sure PV would rather there was a sambar deer behind every tree in the ANP than permit open slather hound hunting in Parks.....in this case the sambar would be the lesser of the two evils by a long stretch !


Very true. A hound turned up at Cleve Cole hut last ANZAC weekend. Exhausted and without a radio collar. Hound hunting is not far away from the prohibited areas and dogs get lost regularly.

sambar358 wrote: I doubt if any of the volunteer hunters are using their involvement in the cull to "suss out" the area for future illegal hunting activities.

Interestingly enough, the week after one operation (back in the beginning), a group involved were caught by a local in a prohibited area. I didn't find this out until much later and he just told them to bugger off. He recognised them from the previous week when they made a mess of their camp and churned up and access road (and either side of it) through private property (big wet) which resulted in a complaint to the Area Chief Ranger. Once I became aware of the illegal activity I contacted the ranger in charge and since then all has been good.

sambar358 wrote: There is no doubt that much of the BHP is getting illegally hunted and this is nothing new really.....but this is a GMA /PV/ VicPol enforcement issue and not something that should be leveled on the volunteer hunter program as a whole.


PV have no responsibility when it comes to taking action against people with guns. In fact they will not respond to any call about illegal hunting in the park without Police and then Police will take the action. The GMA also cannot do operations without Police. We are looking to address the problems associated with illegal hunting currently and hoping there is some support from the government in time. I was up at 1am this morning because of a spotlighter taking a shot. Apart from the one incident mentioned above, I have not known of any involved in the program doing the wrong thing. We did find an increase in the number of illegal hunters in one of the areas the program was working early in the trial but this was not associated with the volunteers. They may have heard some stories though. Anyway, catch you in a few days. Off to play on BHP.
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Re: Deer Control Bogong High Plains resumes for Summer

Postby Xplora » Fri 16 Mar, 2018 7:13 am

sambar358 wrote:And then of course there are all those pesky and untouchable feral horses that also love mushing-up the sensitive peat bogs and heath lands on the BHP and elsewhere.......but ground and aerial shooting of them would be political suicide of course despite it being considered by many as the most effective method of reducing their numbers in the most time effective and economical way. Interesting times ahead. Cheers
s358


Trapping of horses on BHP has started and ground shooting has not been ruled out entirely. The plan is to remove all the horses from BHP and this is an achievable objective as there is around 80 known. Ground shooting would have been employed now if it were not for the bleeding hearts who want to protect this feral pest. Ground shooting will eventually be common practise once they get through the first part of the management plan. That plan was a bend over and drop your pants to please a small group of people who do not speak for all horse owners.

Spotted a large stag near Ropers hut yesterday and could have shot it half a dozen times at 20m even after making noise (honking at it). It eventually walked off and I suspect it may have been ill.
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Re: Deer Control Bogong High Plains resumes for Summer

Postby sambar358 » Fri 16 Mar, 2018 8:11 am

Interesting comments of the BHP horses Xplora......only 80.....known. Each year I'm seeing more and more horses and horse sign during the winter lower down in the Park and public land where I'm sambar hunting. Without getting too specific here these horses are close-enough to the BHP to supplement any losses from the feral horse removal program on the BHP. Not large mobs like those I've seen on the Plains.....but they are pretty-well everywhere that I've been hunting and a few encounters each day is pretty common. All the usual type of horse sign.....well defined travel trails, mineral licks, dust baths and large bare camp areas. So I think once Parks get the BHP numbers down a bit via their trapping and relocation program there will be a need to look outside the Plains but still within the Park to put a bit of pressure on the neddies lower down to stop them just replacing the ones removed from around the trapping zones.

Interesting account of your honker encounter too.....20m is pretty close to get to a sambar without it crashing off in alarm. But I guess if Ropers is outside the deer cull zones and you had the wind right he probably thought that you posed no threat to him. But certainly he could have been ill ......but if they've not been getting any pressure put on them by hunting and don't encounter people often then he just may not have been all that fussed by your presence. Hard antler or velvet ? Cheers

s358
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Re: Deer Control Bogong High Plains resumes for Summer

Postby Xplora » Sat 17 Mar, 2018 6:03 am

I believe the plan is to attack those further down as well in time to prevent them filtering into the High Plains. A count was conducted a few years back and horse descriptions were recorded. The number back then was around 60 but there have been the obvious increase from new foals. Trapping stopped a few years back because of all the drama and prior to the new management plan they intended to keep the population around 60 and not see any new herds form. The new herd around Nelse is being targeted right now. Trapping is slow, costly and stressful but it is all they can do a present.
The stag we saw had small antlers in velvet (growing), one bigger than the other. He was big and maybe just very old. We saw him right beside the Duanne spur track on the approach to Ropers so he would have encountered people often if he frequented the area. Perhaps he is used to people not bothering him and is now relatively tame like some of the feral horses which we can get to within a few metres. He did not seem to be walking well though.
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