Croajingolong walk - upgrade?

Victoria specific bushwalking discussion.
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Croajingolong walk - upgrade?

Postby Heremeahappy1 » Wed 18 Nov, 2020 11:37 am

FYI
New and iconic...
"These upgrades will allow for the development of an iconic new Coastal Wilderness walk through Croajingolong National Park."
https://www.premier.vic.gov.au/protecti ... promontory
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Re: Croajingolong walk - upgrade?

Postby wobbly » Thu 19 Nov, 2020 4:53 pm

Hmmm interesting. There already is an iconic coastal wilderness walk through Croajingolong. If it's anything like the Grampians Peaks trail walk I guess they will be closing it for at least 5 years whilst they remove the wilderness aspect.
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Re: Croajingolong walk - upgrade?

Postby peregrinator » Thu 19 Nov, 2020 6:12 pm

wobbly wrote:Hmmm interesting. There already is an iconic coastal wilderness walk through Croajingolong. If it's anything like the Grampians Peaks trail walk I guess they will be closing it for at least 5 years whilst they remove the wilderness aspect.


That's great "strategic planning" by the politicians. It might take at least five years for vegetation to replace the charcoal from the 2019-2020 bushfire effecting 70% of the national park.
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Re: Croajingolong walk - upgrade?

Postby JulianS » Sun 22 Nov, 2020 12:36 pm

wobbly wrote:Hmmm interesting. There already is an iconic coastal wilderness walk through Croajingolong. If it's anything like the Grampians Peaks trail walk I guess they will be closing it for at least 5 years whilst they remove the wilderness aspect.


Couldn't have said it better myself.

An "upgrade" to the Croajingolong Wilderness Coast walk was forecast some time ago - it was earmarked as the 4th "Icon Walk" for Victoria (the other 3 being Great Ocean Walk, Grampians Peaks and Falls-to-Hotham)... where these 4 "Icon Walks" were going to be used in a "portfolio" to brand Victoria as an eco-tourism/walking destination. With Grampians Peaks and Falls-to-Hotham under construction or in the late planning stages (respectively), this funding announcement is consistent with Croajingolong presumably being not far behind.

It seems with each new National Park that gets an "upgrade", the extent of development and infrastructure only increases. Just look at the hut/lodge style accommodation and push for commercial involvement with the Falls-to-Hotham proposal.

Croajingolong NP features the last remaining coastal wilderness in Victoria. However, I fear the word "Wilderness" in the name of this walk may end up doing the area a disservice, given the word seems to be increasingly leveraged for marketing/branding. Although there's no detail yet, the prospect of glamping accomm/huts/water tanks/kitchens etc as a blight on what is such a beautiful, unique and special landscape is really saddening to imagine.

I also fear that the remoteness that has allowed Croajingolong to retain its wilderness values means that there will be relatively few people who know enough about it to speak up. And those people who do will be criticised for being obstructive to bushfire/COVID economic recovery efforts.
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Re: Croajingolong walk - upgrade?

Postby hairyfoots » Mon 04 Jan, 2021 1:54 pm

Ok, give me a second here..... #$%#$@$#@#%%# #$@

Sorry. Walking Mallacoota to Wonboyn featured in my most memorable childhood holidays, the first when we were 4, 6, and 8 years old... this about 20 years ago, before our parents had mobile phones or EPIRBs... they were quite keen looking back on it! Usually we'd maybe see a couple of fishermen towards the end, and that was it.

Although, it looks like everything east of Mallacoota is managed by NPWS so this news probably doesn't apply to that section. I guess I better get out and check more of the Victorian section before it becomes less wild (though I think it already seemed a bit less wild). I wonder what they're going to do exactly.
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Re: Croajingolong walk - upgrade?

Postby JulianS » Tue 05 Jan, 2021 9:29 am

hairyfoots wrote:I guess I better get out and check more of the Victorian section before it becomes less wild (though I think it already seemed a bit less wild).


You're right, Cape Conran to Mallacoota is somewhat less wild than Mallacoota to Wonboyn, mainly due to intermittent car camping spots that you need to pass through (in/around Pearl Point, Thurra River and Wingan Inlet), and the hamlet (for want of a better word) at Tamboon Inlet (only accessible by boat). That still leaves many many kms of wilderness coast though... well worth your time. I would recommend you get your hands on Peter Cook's 'Walking the Wilderness Coast' to help with planning (water availability and inlet crossings can present some challenges). Regardless, you'll have to wait a bit unfortunately, as the area is still closed due to bushfire damage.

hairyfoots wrote:I wonder what they're going to do exactly.


Indeed... I wish I knew more about how this process worked. Who comes up with this stuff? Is it a commercial operator who finds someone in government to champion the idea? Do they then drive the design of it? Based on other similar developments (e.g. Ben Boyd), it feels like by the time it reaches public consultation, that is just a box-ticking exercise... they already know what they're going to do...
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Re: Croajingolong walk - upgrade?

Postby hairyfoots » Tue 05 Jan, 2021 10:49 pm

Yep we definitely had a copy of the book.

Box-ticking yes... I work in, and personally care about, urban planning and infrastructure construction, and there is this same meta problem I have no idea where to solve, whereby the government will never actually ask the community "should this be built or not, or maybe something else completely?", only "we're building it, what colour do you want the noise walls to be?".
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Re: Croajingolong walk - upgrade?

Postby Xplora » Thu 07 Jan, 2021 6:38 am

JulianS wrote:Indeed... I wish I knew more about how this process worked. Who comes up with this stuff? Is it a commercial operator who finds someone in government to champion the idea? Do they then drive the design of it? Based on other similar developments (e.g. Ben Boyd), it feels like by the time it reaches public consultation, that is just a box-ticking exercise... they already know what they're going to do...


In the case of the Falls to Hotham walk, the consultation process led to public meetings which addressed many of the inadequacies and a further public meeting which was pretty much just to inform what will be done. Some in attendance at the later meeting thought it was a further opportunity to add negative opinion but in fact their minds had been made up. Years later and still no progress so maybe they have had to address the problems and may actually have listened. I would like to know where these concepts all started. Someone must have had the 'brilliant' idea. Was it Parks or Tourism or a politician? Regardless, places such as the BW forum provide a great range of opinion and information which can help when people make submissions. The submissions are actually available to read online so you can get a good feeling for the real position of the people. My advice is to keep submissions as concise as possible and use point form where applicable to emphasise. If submissions are long then a summary is good.
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Re: Croajingolong walk - upgrade?

Postby paidal_chalne_vala » Mon 18 Jan, 2021 5:38 pm

People who have never walked to the milk bar/ general store have heard of the Overland walk in Tasmania and are planning to do it. This seems like the reason some bright spark in the Vic. Lib /Labs thought " OK, we can make our own cash cow walking routes with nice huts and fancy views and people will pay $$$$$$$ and they will line up to do it. However first we need to make it a bit less wild and take the roughing it aspect out of it or people will get turned off by all those bushes, insects, walking on muddy / rocky paths etc. etc."
Now here we are in 2021 . Just wait for another big bushfire in the places where these "Iconic walks" have been planned or half built ( I need my air sickness bag now , cringe, puke , yuk .. ).....and all that w*nky cr*p will be incinerated and with luck nature will prevail .
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Re: Croajingolong walk - upgrade?

Postby Heremeahappy1 » Mon 18 Jan, 2021 7:32 pm

Pcv, what the? Your post made me cringe and did not contribute to the discussion. Could you try again to articulate your position?
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Re: Croajingolong walk - upgrade?

Postby Baeng72 » Tue 19 Jan, 2021 5:47 am

Heremeahappy1 wrote:Pcv, what the? Your post made me cringe and did not contribute to the discussion. Could you try again to articulate your position?

I speak conversational Pcv, basically: the brass at HQ thought it would be pukka if the boffins came up with an spiffy idea to offer expensive touring to the hoi-polloi in the montaine regions Port-Phillip District like they do in Van Diemen's land. The boffins determined they'd need to make the terrain more suitable to tastes of the tourers by polishing up the track, adding amenities so they can take their privy in peace, and generally rogering the environment so it is more British. This isn't exactly Pcv's cup of tea.
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Re: Croajingolong walk - upgrade?

Postby north-north-west » Tue 19 Jan, 2021 6:22 am

p-c-v is right about that. The Overland Track has a name because it's been there for so long and so many people here and overseas have done it, been enthralled, and spread the word. It became a bucket-list item for walkers, non-walkers, wannabes and bored bogans long before we ever heard the term "bucket-list". Parent-child bonding experience? Do the Overland. Something different for a Christmas/New Year holiday? Do the Overland. Want to show off to new girlfriend/boyfriend? Do the Overland. Bragging points with urban mates? Do the Overland. Motivation to get fit/lose weight? Do the Overland. Even the ones who know they can't walk that far go to Dove Lake because it's seen as part of it.

Bureaucrats in other states are jealous. It's an attraction that generates its own publicity, simply because of its longevity and its very nature, and that publicity is really effective. So others want the same thing and think they can manufacture it. But they also realise that a lot of those who want to do it can't cope with the realities, so they try to engineer something that removes as many of those unpleasant realities as possible.

The Overland is not a money spinner. Track fees are used to maintain and improve the track and facilities and to employ staff. But the flow-on effect for the state ... that's the big thing and that's what others want to replicate but they don't realise it is not something you can manufacture and they already have things with a similar status anyway. Different things, but the impact is the same: the NT has Uluru. Victoria has the Twelve Apostles. Sydney has the Opera House. Queensland has the Barrier. But they want the draw of the Overland as well.

This is getting a bit long-winded and I've said it all before anyway. You can't turn something else into another Overland Track. And you can't sell sanitised bush as wilderness because once sanitised it is no longer wilderness. The Overland has become its own victim: too popular, too famous, too crowded, too tidy, too engineered.
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Re: Croajingolong walk - upgrade?

Postby StephenC » Tue 19 Jan, 2021 10:53 am

The Overland has become its own victim: too popular, too famous, too crowded, too tidy, too engineered.


Couldn’t agree more. The Overland Track was my first multiday walk as a 15 year old in the summer of 1966/67. Some corduroy, lots of mud, and I don’t recall any boardwalk. Oh, and no adults with us; just a bunch of teens, 15 - 17. I walk the new ‘iconic’ (hate that term!) trails and I guess they are enjoyable enough, but don’t come close to that experience. But then maybe nothing is as exciting as when you are fifteen and off the leash for the first time.

Guess I had better walk Croajingalong before the bobcats move in. It has been languishing on the wishlist for far too long.
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Re: Croajingolong walk - upgrade?

Postby paidal_chalne_vala » Tue 19 Jan, 2021 6:36 pm

It would seem some people do understand my looney leftie trail mix addled greenie gibberish and have made my position quite clear for me. You cannot manufacture another overland track and in doing so the goose that lays the golden egg will be plucked, killed and cooked in the process.
Take the 'wild' out of the wilderness and market it in wanky colour brochures and slick web pages as a shiny clean bogan / knuckle dragger / chav friendly commercial commodity. Ka Ching $$$!
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Re: Croajingolong walk - upgrade?

Postby Xplora » Wed 20 Jan, 2021 6:18 am

Perhaps an alternate view. Maybe we should sacrifice some small sections of wilderness (and lets face it, this is inevitable in time) to those less purist who don't want dirty shoes or to sleep on the ground and stop telling everyone how good the rest of the wilderness is. We kill it for ourselves. Don't blame boffins in tall buildings thinking about how to make money or bring in more tourists. Its you and me, we are to blame. Glossy photos in brochures? Tell me how instagram has ruined your favourite quite place. I have to admit, I read some trip reports and they make me want to go there. Are we influencers in some way? I would think so. I started bushwalking (again) seriously after a major injury which saw my entire life turned upside down. There were no forums or instagram. The peace, solitude and ability to connect with the environment helped me adjust to my new life. I would be happy enough to send the hoards to one place if they leave my other places alone. I don't like it but are we in a position to stop it? The problem with not trying to stop is how much further will they go. Where will it stop? Sorry for the rant. Probably just tired of hearing the same old rhetoric from both sides. No offence to my friends here.

I would disagree with NNW on one thing. You can sell sanitised bush as wilderness to those who think wilderness is where you can't get mobile phone reception. People pay big for a sanitised experience. Why do you think there are so many bus tours through the Kimberley? The Kimberley was actually underwhelming for me because I have seen so much better in the wild but it takes effort to get there. For the people doing the sanitised tours it is amazing because they have never experienced true wilderness. That is why it can sell. They know no better.
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Re: Croajingolong walk - upgrade?

Postby JulianS » Thu 21 Jan, 2021 11:50 am

Xplora wrote:Perhaps an alternate view. Maybe we should sacrifice some small sections of wilderness (and lets face it, this is inevitable in time) to those less purist who don't want dirty shoes or to sleep on the ground and stop telling everyone how good the rest of the wilderness is. We kill it for ourselves. Don't blame boffins in tall buildings thinking about how to make money or bring in more tourists.


I think we're agreed on quite a bit, but not sure I'm connecting the dots of the various points you're making here... take this Croajingolong proposal as an example. It is the only section of relatively wild coast left in the state. Everything else is already sacrificed. The Great Ocean Walk is already 'built' & established, surely that is enough to appease those seeking a "sanitised" coastal walking experience. A few hours drive from Croajingolong, there is another great walk (Light to Light in Ben Boyd NP) that will also soon be decked out/hutted/guided (ie ruined).

I'm not big on posting trip reports or photos, and (like many around these parts) hesitate to talk up my favourite spots for fear of crowding. However, even if I did, I doubt it would have much impact given the effort required to access them (this degree of effort obviously being critical to their having kept relatively wild in the first place). So I still do blame "boffins in tall buildings", since they're the ones who facilitate the massive reduction in effort required to access what were previously wild places. I don't think these boffins are responding to demand (ie the masses frothing over someone elses' Insta shots). I think their thinking is more along the lines of "build it and they will come...". Perhaps it's a bit of both...

PS - yes, I'm aware of inherent hypocrisy/entitlement in some of my statements - it's ok for me, but not for others, etc etc... I don't think we need to get sidetracked by that argument. The key point is that there should still be relatively wild places where only small numbers of people should be allowed (to minimise impact). In many cases, there is a convenient correlation with small numbers willing to put in the extra effort to get there... (until a boffin decides there is an opportunity being missed...)

Apologies Xplora if I misunderstood your post.
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Re: Croajingolong walk - upgrade?

Postby paidal_chalne_vala » Thu 21 Jan, 2021 8:20 pm

The so called gatekeeper argument is bollocks. If it is mega hard to to reach somewhere then it will stay wild. That is a good thing.

"Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone ?. They paved paradise and put up a parking lot."

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Re: Croajingolong walk - upgrade?

Postby Baeng72 » Thu 21 Jan, 2021 8:51 pm

paidal_chalne_vala wrote:The so called gatekeeper argument is bollocks. If it is mega hard to to reach somewhere then it will stay wild. That is a good thing.

"Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone ?. They paved paradise and put up a parking lot."

Joni Mitchell.

Mt Everest called, if you have enough $, you can join the queue.
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Re: Croajingolong walk - upgrade?

Postby Xplora » Fri 22 Jan, 2021 6:20 am

JulianS wrote:I think we're agreed on quite a bit, but not sure I'm connecting the dots of the various points you're making here... take this Croajingolong proposal as an example. It is the only section of relatively wild coast left in the state. Everything else is already sacrificed. The Great Ocean Walk is already 'built' & established, surely that is enough to appease those seeking a "sanitised" coastal walking experience. A few hours drive from Croajingolong, there is another great walk (Light to Light in Ben Boyd NP) that will also soon be decked out/hutted/guided (ie ruined).

I'm not big on posting trip reports or photos, and (like many around these parts) hesitate to talk up my favourite spots for fear of crowding. However, even if I did, I doubt it would have much impact given the effort required to access them (this degree of effort obviously being critical to their having kept relatively wild in the first place). So I still do blame "boffins in tall buildings", since they're the ones who facilitate the massive reduction in effort required to access what were previously wild places. I don't think these boffins are responding to demand (ie the masses frothing over someone elses' Insta shots). I think their thinking is more along the lines of "build it and they will come...". Perhaps it's a bit of both...

PS - yes, I'm aware of inherent hypocrisy/entitlement in some of my statements - it's ok for me, but not for others, etc etc... I don't think we need to get sidetracked by that argument. The key point is that there should still be relatively wild places where only small numbers of people should be allowed (to minimise impact). In many cases, there is a convenient correlation with small numbers willing to put in the extra effort to get there... (until a boffin decides there is an opportunity being missed...)

Apologies Xplora if I misunderstood your post.


No need to apologise. I understand what you are saying and I empathise. More than that, I agree there is no need to sanitise (thanks NNW because this describes it perfectly) this particular walk. I worked hard against the Falls to Hotham walk changes but not sure how my efforts and the efforts of others will effect what happens. Perhaps my forehead has just too many lumps on it now and the brick wall is still standing. My main point is more about keeping our favourite wild places quiet.

What is wild? If there is a track or a marker then is it really wild? I don't look at what you have said as being entitled or hypocritic. Many wild places are being trashed because of the sheer numbers of people who can access them now. I see many posts and reports and read them more like the writer is only interest in the 'look at me' factor and then someone else has to do it. It is a dilemma and I don't know where the balance is. I don't want to be a gatekeeper but I also want to protect unique places. I want people (all people) to see and enjoy all the things I do when out in the bush but some clearly do not understand how to treat it when there. Forums can educate so there is a benefit.

Regarding this walk, the government is intent on building something and your job is to help them find a balance, if that is at all possible. Stopping it will be like stopping the tide. Measured words and a commonsense approach can alter the course. Rhetoric gets thrown in the bin.
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Re: Croajingolong walk - upgrade?

Postby Xplora » Fri 22 Jan, 2021 6:20 am

"If it is mega hard to to reach somewhere then it will stay wild. That is a good thing."
Anyone else like to tell him how wrong this statement is? It may not happen in my lifetime or yours but wild places are increasing easier to get to. History is a great tool.
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Re: Croajingolong walk - upgrade?

Postby Baeng72 » Fri 22 Jan, 2021 8:27 am

Xplora wrote:
JulianS wrote: Many wild places are being trashed because of the sheer numbers of people who can access them now. I see many posts and reports and read them more like the writer is only interest in the 'look at me' factor and then someone else has to do it.

I think I resemble that comment.
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Re: Croajingolong walk - upgrade?

Postby Baeng72 » Fri 22 Jan, 2021 8:29 am

Xplora wrote:"If it is mega hard to to reach somewhere then it will stay wild. That is a good thing."
Anyone else like to tell him how wrong this statement is? It may not happen in my lifetime or yours but wild places are increasing easier to get to. History is a great tool.

There's a grain of truth in what Pcv says, while it's hard to get to something, it will remain remote.
But we keep chipping away at the edges, new roads, cities, aiports, and soon what was a long way from anywhere isn't far away at all. It's not that hard to get to most places on the surface of the Earth that aren't in a war zone if you have the money (COVID notwithstanding).
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Re: Croajingolong walk - upgrade?

Postby Xplora » Fri 22 Jan, 2021 9:05 am

Baeng72 wrote:
Xplora wrote:"If it is mega hard to to reach somewhere then it will stay wild. That is a good thing."
Anyone else like to tell him how wrong this statement is? It may not happen in my lifetime or yours but wild places are increasing easier to get to. History is a great tool.

There's a grain of truth in what Pcv says, while it's hard to get to something, it will remain remote.
But we keep chipping away at the edges, new roads, cities, aiports, and soon what was a long way from anywhere isn't far away at all. It's not that hard to get to most places on the surface of the Earth that aren't in a war zone if you have the money (COVID notwithstanding).


This is true and pretty much what I was saying. Some call it progress. It may take longer for some places to be overrun but I can tell you many places which have been in my lifetime. Money does buy access then someone sees a commercial opportunity and offers a regular service. Price drops and others get in on the act. More people want to experience it, post their selfies and tell everyone else how to do it while at the same time saying how breathtaking and wild the experience was. Authorities react and regulate more then put in infrastructure to support (sometimes protect) and you have sanitised wilderness in the making. Chipping away is a good way to explain it. Perhaps we should take a stronger stand.
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