Horses and heritage

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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby LachlanB » Thu 07 Jun, 2018 9:50 am

And the bill passed:
https://www.smh.com.au/environment/cons ... 4zjrn.html
A sad day for the fragile ecosystems of the High Country. :(

Edit: Tom beat me to it...
tom_brennan wrote: So it is effectively now L-A-W law:


Only so long as the current government stays in power. The Opposition has stated that they'll repeal the legislation if elected next year. So that makes it crystal clear to me who I won't be voting for...
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby Lophophaps » Thu 07 Jun, 2018 10:57 am

highercountry wrote:Australian governments have completely ignored United Nations condemnation and damning on human rights issues related to Indigenous imprisonment, migration and environmental issues.
They are impervious to criticism. The truth, scientific evidence and expert opinion doesn't seem to matter these days.
What chance they'll pay any attention to a relatively low profile organisation as the IUCN?
This is not to say that we all lay down and take it up the ....., but what does it take to sway a government from populist BS, bigotry, intolerance and powerful vested interests.


Regretfully I have to agree with you. However, every little piece of opposition adds up. It may be time to start an online campaign, with a major focus on dollars. On a lighter note, drive the ferals into Victoria and shoot them. The horses I mean.
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby peregrinator » Thu 07 Jun, 2018 11:52 am

crollsurf wrote:You have til the 22nd June to make a submission for anyone interested
Notice of Preliminary Determination
The NSW Threatened Species Scientific Committee (NSW TSSC) has made a
Preliminary Determination proposing that the “Habitat degradation and loss by Feral
Horses, Equus caballus” be listed as a Key threatening process in Schedule 4 of the
Biodiversity Conservation Act 2016.

How to make a submission
The NSW TSSC welcomes public involvement...


Link to PDF http://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/resources/threatenedspecies/determinations/PDFeralHorsesKTP2.pdf


But the bill has passed two weeks before submissions close! What the . . . ?
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby crollsurf » Thu 07 Jun, 2018 12:03 pm

I'd say that will be conducted by management committee to replace the management committee that produced the 2016 report which the Govt sat on before passing this legislation. Although there may be an issue with the word "Scientific" once the Govt handpicks the committee.

We can only hope that this ends up as a total balls-up like most things Australian/State politicians touch and sadly for the horses, they all stave to death before the next election and any native species go extinct.
Insane, yes, political, yes, disaster yes. Change of Govt, lets hope so.
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby gayet » Thu 07 Jun, 2018 2:01 pm

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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby DavidB » Fri 08 Jun, 2018 10:15 am

You can try emailing your submission to the Scientifc Committee about the preliminary determination in relation to feral horses but the relevant page states clearly that snail mail is the way to go. So just to be on the safe side I sent mine in the old-fashioned way.

And yes its looks like a change of government is needed to repeal this riduculous legislation.
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby Lophophaps » Thu 28 Jun, 2018 8:07 pm

The ABC's 7.30 program just ran a preview of an item next week about feral horses. No date was given.
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby Zapruda » Thu 05 Jul, 2018 7:10 am

A very worthwhile watch - http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/wild-horses-at-the-centre-of-a-controversial-new/9941254

The 20 year feral horse exclusion zone was shocking. How much more evidence do these people need.
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby north-north-west » Thu 05 Jul, 2018 9:30 am

Zapruda wrote:The 20 year feral horse exclusion zone was shocking. How much more evidence do these people need.


Science and evidence are irrelevant to their world view.
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby Xplora » Thu 05 Jul, 2018 10:35 am

Zapruda wrote:A very worthwhile watch - http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/wild-horses-at-the-centre-of-a-controversial-new/9941254

The 20 year feral horse exclusion zone was shocking. How much more evidence do these people need.


There would be many on this forum who have been there as have we. We were confronted by a mob of horses and challenged by the stallion. I don't feel this report showed enough of the damage but it is a start. It certainly highlighted the back room deals done by a corrupt government looking to help out a former colleague and his business. That is politics. Has nothing to do with science.
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby DavidB » Thu 05 Jul, 2018 1:39 pm

Sad but true. Used to see emus at Cowombat Flat (where the 20 year plots are). Not now. All you see are feral horses and horse dung. I hope I'm wrong but a bushwalker is going to get injured by an agressive horse. Maybe then the pollies will listen.

So at the 2019 NSW election don't vote for those supporting this stupid legislation.
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby Xplora » Thu 05 Jul, 2018 3:19 pm

DavidB wrote:Sad but true. Used to see emus at Cowombat Flat (where the 20 year plots are). Not now. All you see are feral horses and horse dung. I hope I'm wrong but a bushwalker is going to get injured by an agressive horse. Maybe then the pollies will listen.



That should be something brought up and maybe the horses are the reason. Emu were in many areas and are not now but the horses are there. BHP used to have emu but maybe they are gone because of the cattle. I can also see a time when a person on foot will be injured by a feral horse. I have been around horses for almost 50 years and know a few tricks but we were genuinely concerned about an attack. Most of the feral horses we have come across have not been a threat although some of the mares in the new mob around Nelse have shown some aggression recently. The stallion is pretty quiet. A mare with a foal at foot may look to protect her foal. Mostly horses will run away or the stallion will stand guard while the rest of the mob get away and the he will retreat. I have seen a stallion try to decoy us from the main herd. He kept coming back each time we did not follow. The mares and foals just kept going up the road until they were buggered and you could have just thrown a rope over them. Other issues not considered are the danger to road user and I am surprised more have not been hit by cars. Deer are one of the biggest causes of write off's near Orbost. I have seen plenty of feral horses on the sides of major roads around KNP.

This legislation will change with a new government. Time a for a change anyway.
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby Wollemi » Fri 06 Jul, 2018 9:10 am

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal ... l#comments

"...feral horses trampling through the Australian Alps are limiting water available for hydro power as the federal government plans a massive expansion of the project."
Live everyday as if it were your last... one day you will be right.
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby Zapruda » Fri 06 Jul, 2018 9:37 am

Yep, I read that this morning... Double damage to that area at the moment.

I was walking though the Gooandra plain area a few weeks ago and there are porta potties, pumps, worksites, new roads and regraded roads throughout the whole area.

They really need to think hard about the damage that is being done. The plains In that area have been destroyed. And this feasibility study looks more like the start of the actual work for Snowy Hydro 2.0.

It definitely doesn’t feel like a National Park in that area at the moment.
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby juxtaposer » Sun 08 Jul, 2018 8:44 am

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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby Xplora » Mon 09 Jul, 2018 6:17 am

juxtaposer wrote:http://www.spiffa.org/the-myth-of-the-sacred-brumby.html


The sentiments in that article I have echoed on this thread and many of the quotes we have in our books. I recall this one in particular

“they were driven into this long lane, at the end of which stood an expert, armed with a keen knife. As each animal passed, its jugular vein was severed, and the bleeding creature tore madly away into its native scrub, only to stagger and die from loss of blood within half a mile of the trap. This devise, though barbarous, did away with the difficulty of removing carcasses, and became the universal method of destruction.”

It was about saving money, the cost of bullets. So true that now that attitudes have changed since there is no economic loss to the farmer and all this could be a simple matter of sticking it up NPWS for locking them out of the park and stopping their sport. The statement from Barilaro in 2014 pointed the way. He only intended to work with those stakeholders who had an interest in protecting the feral pest and the brumby advocates.

"I will continue to work with stakeholders who recognise the heritage connection that the brumbies bring to the region, I will work closely with brumbie advocates in exploring wild horse management techniques that find a balance between the environment and recognising that brumbies are part of the Kosciuszko landscape. There are few places in the world where wild horses can roam free."
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby Xplora » Wed 11 Jul, 2018 5:37 am

I received an email from the Scientific committee indicating there has been a request for submissions. Did not say who made the request.

'The NSW Threatened Species Scientific Committee has received an access application under the Government Information (Public Access) Act 2009 seeking access to submissions received relating to the Preliminary determination for Habitat degradation and loss by Feral Horses.

Please find attached a consultation letter and facts sheets regarding this access request.'


Obviously my email submission made it through.
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby Lophophaps » Wed 18 Jul, 2018 4:09 pm

http://www.greatwalks.com.au/news/park- ... tPzttTL.01
It seems to say clients will be riding horses to a number of summits. Is this allowed?
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby north-north-west » Wed 18 Jul, 2018 5:31 pm

Seen a few groups riding on the Fainter fire trail, between Pretty Valley and Bogong jacks. Nelse wouldn't surprise me. But surely not Feathertop. The blurb reads more like the people are walking and their overnight gear is carried by the horses between camps. Which is bad enough - but are they expecting everyone to walk up and down Feathertop from the horse yards by the river in one day?
Have also seen riders at Cleve Cole, legal or not.
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby Xplora » Fri 20 Jul, 2018 7:40 am

Lophophaps wrote:http://www.greatwalks.com.au/news/park-trek-offers-pack-horse-alpine-hike#MX5tcPa18tPzttTL.01
It seems to say clients will be riding horses to a number of summits. Is this allowed?

From what I read the clients are walking and the Baird's are only doing pack horse back up. Although Nelse is mentioned in the preamble it is not mentioned in the itinerary. It also appears to be quite ambitious in places. I think most people will be doing the 4wd transfer to the Long Spur. It would be a long, hard day from Big River at Glen Valley (not Glen Wills) to Cleve Cole. The information states 20km which is probably more like 25km (at least) if you head up Kangaroo Creek Track and do not get a lift. There is about 5km of backtracking along 107 and then a river crossing. It would have been better to do the crossing and camp at Pender's (Prender's) flat on Kangaroo Creek track the day before. Not for us to work out the logistics but that would be a pretty ordinary day walking most of it on 4wd tracks. The Baird's may still have a permit to ride or take horses to the summit of Bogong but not sure if they can go down Eskdale Spur. They may also truck the horses to some sites but they are very experienced in the area and should know what can be done. Their pack horses are usually loaded to about 100kg and I think that is a bit cruel. Because it is dead weight it is like them carrying a a much heavier person. Most of these companies are now restricting the weight of riders to 100kg.

$3K is not too bad a price for it but also not sure how the beer will stay cold for that long. Feb is the Baird's slow time so they would be keen to give it a kick. They feel the potential bushfire threat stops people booking. April is fickle weather and likely also to be a quieter time for the Baird's. The Baird's are also keen on the FHAC as they see a potential for pack horse supply of campsites. It is probably a workable concept but their services do not come cheap.
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby TML MHz » Fri 27 Jul, 2018 11:13 am

Did anyone post this here yet? Lifted from the discussion on a certain Australian skiing forum (credit TelemarkPhat).



I am not sure I understand his position, he seems a bit on the fence!
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby Xplora » Fri 27 Jul, 2018 5:38 pm

TML MHz wrote:Did anyone post this here yet? Lifted from the discussion on a certain Australian skiing forum (credit TelemarkPhat).



I am not sure I understand his position, he seems a bit on the fence!


He is not on the fence. If anything he would say all horses should have a fence around them. His position is clearly one of 'get rid of them'. Very much a conservationist in my view.
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby jdeks » Fri 27 Jul, 2018 5:54 pm

Xplora wrote:
TML MHz wrote:Did anyone post this here yet? Lifted from the discussion on a certain Australian skiing forum (credit TelemarkPhat).


I am not sure I understand his position, he seems a bit on the fence!


He is not on the fence. If anything he would say all horses should have a fence around them. His position is clearly one of 'get rid of them'. Very much a conservationist in my view.


That would be the joke, Xplora.


Thanks for the vid TML, sharing it around.
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby TML MHz » Fri 27 Jul, 2018 9:19 pm

jdeks wrote:
Xplora wrote:
TML MHz wrote:Did anyone post this here yet? Lifted from the discussion on a certain Australian skiing forum (credit TelemarkPhat).


I am not sure I understand his position, he seems a bit on the fence!


He is not on the fence. If anything he would say all horses should have a fence around them. His position is clearly one of 'get rid of them'. Very much a conservationist in my view.


That would be the joke, Xplora.


Thanks for the vid TML, sharing it around.


Yes, Sorry, I forgot to use Sarcastica... https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Sarcastica
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby Xplora » Sat 28 Jul, 2018 6:50 am

Probably did not pick it up as I did not watch the vid. Internet speed here has been so slow of late that U tube will not load. Apologies. We rely on an antenna that picks up a bounced signal from a mountain to the tower which is about 30km away. Sometimes the mail is quicker and that only comes twice a week, unless the postie's horse is lame.
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby Franco » Sat 28 Jul, 2018 12:34 pm

The French and Swiss eat horses and so should we or at least the omnivores amongst us.[/quote]
They do in Italy too.
In the small town I grew up in (about 20.000) we had a dedicated horse butcher.
Friends of ours are about to get a bramby, both of his parents were wild.
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby Franco » Sat 28 Jul, 2018 12:38 pm

Xplora wrote:Probably did not pick it up as I did not watch the vid. Internet speed here has been so slow of late that U tube will not load. Apologies. We rely on an antenna that picks up a bounced signal from a mountain to the tower which is about 30km away. Sometimes the mail is quicker and that only comes twice a week, unless the postie's horse is lame.

It will probably not do anything for you, but have you tried switching your modem off , leaving it off for a minute or so and then re-starting ?
It works for me . (the modem should automatically search for the strongest signal available)
Again you probably know this but just in case....
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby Xplora » Sun 29 Jul, 2018 7:50 am

Franco wrote:
Xplora wrote:Probably did not pick it up as I did not watch the vid. Internet speed here has been so slow of late that U tube will not load. Apologies. We rely on an antenna that picks up a bounced signal from a mountain to the tower which is about 30km away. Sometimes the mail is quicker and that only comes twice a week, unless the postie's horse is lame.

It will probably not do anything for you, but have you tried switching your modem off , leaving it off for a minute or so and then re-starting ?
It works for me . (the modem should automatically search for the strongest signal available)
Again you probably know this but just in case....

Thanks Franco, I should explain further but it is a bit off topic. I run internet via mobile phone (hotspot). I could sign up for a very expensive sat NBN but it is also slow, unreliable and as mentioned extremely expensive for data. I also don't like ugly sat dishes on the roof, hence I have also resisted getting TV. I managed to secure a mobile phone tower for the area under the Fed govt. black spot program and that has to be completed by the end of this year. Holding out for that but not sure if it will improve things. I have no idea how it is to be connected to the bigger system. They are still running a copper network in the pits to the exchange as far as I can tell so if it connects to that then it will not be reliable or fast. A landline ADSL will not improve things either (too far from the exchange) and it would cost huge to run the cable to the house. Landlines here also go down when it rains a lot. Usually when the internet is poor I load a page then make a cuppa or read something else. Life is at a slower pace in the country anyway but it can be frustrating at times.

Franco wrote:The French and Swiss eat horses and so should we or at least the omnivores amongst us.


I think most of the horses would only be good for mince meat. I can't see anything wrong with horse meat for human consumption. Australians eat their National emblems and most other things including camel. We eat venison regularly (last night in fact). Meat is meat, well not really, some meat may be better than others but if there is a market for it or it is a marketable product then slaughtered and butchered appropriately horse could be on the table. The amount of horse meat processed which would come from capturing wild animals would be less than 0.1%. In fact it would cost more to capture and transport than the carcass would fetch. The race horse industry already provides and abundant source of very young and old animals but Australians are too hooked up on this heritage stuff with horses or they see horses as having a greater purpose other than providing food. Do you recall the Ikea horse burger stink? Still problems with horses for meat overseas.
In the small town I grew up in (about 20.000) we had a dedicated horse butcher.
Franco wrote:Friends of ours are about to get a bramby, both of his parents were wild.

Was it your friends parent's who were both wild or the horses'? Just kidding, know what you mean. I would talk them out if it if you could. Feral horses are poor in quality and conformation due to inbreeding. There are many problems which have been identified and even the early pioneer settlers considered them worthless. You could not give one away to me and I have 3 horses here which were given to me. I hope they are not paying a lot for it. Green broken then it may fetch $1000 if good.
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby Neo » Mon 10 Sep, 2018 10:16 pm

There is a walk going down in November

https://savekosci.org/register-1/
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby Warin » Thu 08 Nov, 2018 4:04 pm

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