Old Fashioned ( Historical ) Walking

[Moondog55]

I have been thinking of doing a few days walking using only old fashioned gear, the stuff I grew up with in the 1960s.
It was only when i started looking that I realised how little of this old gear there is.
If I wanted to emulate any other historical era it would be relatively easy, but gear from the 50s and through to the 70s is now rare, especially in usable condition. I have a framed rucksack but I think it dates from the middle 80s as dose my japara tent from Paddy Pallin.

peoples thoughts on a starting an historical walking group??
No gear later that say 1975 just to see how hard and tough we were back then

[juxtaposer]

The classic pack from that era in Sydney was the external A frame Paddymade "Bushwalker". It was available in the 40's, if not before, and was sold right through the 50's and into the 60's. It was replaced by the H frame "Explorer" and "Mountaineer" models in about the late 60's/early 70's. Paddyy stopped making tents at a guess in about 1983 .Mark F knows a lot about this topic.

[Moondog55]

Having carried a "Kidney Killer" for quite a few years and a "Mountain Mule" after that I can say they are not really missed

[jackhinde]

and i thought i was old fashioned with my 1980's external frame pack : )

[juxtaposer]

Paddymade packs in the 80's hung on a Karrimor frame. After that they didn't make anymore packs.

[Strider]

and i thought i was old fashioned with my 1980's external frame pack : )

You are

[Moondog55]

Another problem will be getting the right mix of old Army woolen pants and jackets, when I started walking almost everybody wore old army battle dress and black NZ oilskins and our grandmothers knitted our singlets from baby wool

[juxtaposer]

Moondog, I know what you mean about "Kidney Killers". My first pack was a hand me down steel A framed Flinders Ranges. It was the bane of my life until I bought a Paddymade H frame. So I've always thought those earlier Paddymade A frames you see in the old pictures must have been instruments of torture too. Recently, however, I've taken possession of a Paddymade Bushwalker Deluxe of about 1940's vintage. It is in good condition. I filled it up with gear and put it on just to get the feel of it. I was amazed at how comfortably it sits on the back, and it sits a lot higher than I'd imagined it would, not low slung at all. This was the bushwalking workhorse for decades.

[thejungleisneutral]

Great thread.

It's tough to find a lot of the old bushwalking equipment. I've been after a Paddymade Japara tent for a while now but have come up empty so far. Another problem is old leather non-steelcap work boots with leather and sole and cleats or even a "commando" sole. I've basically given up on finding old bushwalking gear and have gone for old army surplus equivalents since if they aren't still available they are often repro'd. For example, since Paddy Pallin based his "kidney killer" packs on the old mountaineering packs like Bergans, I had to find a military pack with the same evolutionary pedigree. For me this was an Aussie-made 1966 dated Pattern 42 Bergan rucksack which looks for all the world like a Paddymade example from the 50s and 60s.

Anyway, I've had the same idea of doing some historical bushwalking but I'm aiming at the 20s and 30s era using a swag and tuckerbag system Myles Dunphy style http://thejungleisneutral.wordpress.com ... challenge/

I might see about getting some later vintage stuff reproduced like the japara tent, zip up water bag and billy bag for rucksack walks. I'm probably going to have to go army style for the boots though.

[Lindsay]

I remember my army battledress jacket. Looked very cool over my scout camp shirt.

[Moondog55]

I still have my japara tent, but it is of a later vintage; late 70s style so a sewn in groundsheet

[stry]

In my shed are 1 Paddy Pallin 2 man A tent (don't remember the model name), 1 Paddy Pallin Era wall tent. Both Stormtite japara, sash cord sewn in ridge rope, cloth tape door ties, no floor, no netting. Last time I checked, no mould. All perfect. I use the wiz bang modern stuff now, but the advances are not that great, in my opinion, apart from weight saving and leech proofing.

Also have a Paddy Pallin Karkampa. Similar spec and condition. Funny, but they don't seem to have the high U/V sensitivity of synthetic fabrics.

Also have Bulldog poles to suit plus a couple of spare sets grabbed at the sale that Moondog dipped out on mamny years ago.

Not sure about swags in the 1920s and 30s. I have photos here of my father and others ski touring in, I think, the early 30s. Dad is using a genuine Bergan A frame with two home made front pockets looking around three to five litres each. Nothing new about that part of an Aarn !! I asked him many years ago what he carried in the pockets and the answer was "potatoes I think".

The pack is long gone - instrument of torture compared to what we now have, but unbeatable for a nostalgia trip . I used it for a few years before my aluminium framed Mountain Mule Everest (?) was bought from Paddy. Still have the M/M plus a lighter version called, I think, the Expedition.

I never use any of this stuff, but am reluctant to part with it. On the other hand, I'd rather see it used than hang on to it for future use by children/grandchildren which may never eventuate. Maybe we should PM ? BTW I have read the book (thejungleisneutral)

Still have, and use the P/P Stormtite water bucket with the zip closure. Have a couple of modern synthetic, lighter buckets, but I simply prefer the old fabric bucket, despite the weight penalty. I feel that the water tastes better.

I still have some bits and pieces of black japara somewhere. Maybe pants and mitts. Still got the wool pants. Wool dress uniform was a nicer cut than battle dress and less military looking. Man, they drag on your knees when they are soaked and you're stumbling along at the end of a long day.

The clunky old boots were all shredded. I think my best effort was one pair destroyed (well worn to the point of being nearly unusable) in approx. two weeks. Rotten things - no redeeming features whatsoever !!

[thejungleisneutral]

PM sent

That's interesting about your dad retrofitting his Bergan with pockets on the harness. Would have worked pretty well I think

Here's a pic of the frame and harness on my 60s army Bergan


To someone like me who grew up with modern hip-loading and fully-adjustable packs, the old A-frame patterns look like a torture rack. However, having loaded it up with about 15kg and taken it out bush for the day, I can concur that they seem pretty comfortable although they do tend to pull straight back on the shoulders and just hang off your frame - particularly on the uphill. Moving some of that weight to the torso by using pouches on the shoulder straps would improve the centre of gravity a fair bit, much like Myles Dunphy and Bert Gallop's dilly bags did or the front pouches on an AARN do.

I forgot all about wool service dress pants. They'd be much more stylish than battledress. I think Moondog55 had another thread here where he mentioned waterproofing the old serge wool army pants so they'd stay warm but wouldn't hold water. I'll have to search for it.

[Moondog55]

I just used TX10 ( Nikwax) although back in my scouting days we used a soap and alum treatment and then dipped in lanolin in solvent and wait for the petrol stink to disappear
Part of me misses the old battle dress jackets with khaki shorts ( the 15 YO part that didn't know any better ) wool service dress is heavier and more tightly cut, we actually preferred summer dress trousers especially if we could get the polyester wool blend. Although we would probably get arrested these days if we went walking with all the stuff scouts usually dressed up in, axes hatchets and bayonets on the belt

[stry]

Not much changed with the Bergans by the look of your photo TJIN.

Near as I can recall, Dad's was identical in attachments, hip strap, placement of the various bits and pieces. Slightly more modern materials in a couple of places on yours.

[Allchin09]

The Jungle is Neutral,

What you are planning on doing sounds very interesting. Good to hear you have been able to get some gear together, even if it isn't exactly what was used by Australian bushwalkers in the 1920-30s.

I have long had an interest in bushwalking history, and the Dunphys being a quite prominent through the years have drawn my attention. I'm not sure if you have, but it is well worth reading through Myles' journals that are held in the Mitchell Library as part of the Dunphy Collection. I've just finished reading two of the early volumes and they are just packed with information, photos, sketches and maps. Detailed lists of foodstuffs are also provided.

Be sure to let us know how your walk goes, and keep up the good work with your blog!

[tas-man]

There are a few threads about " ye olde" bushwalking gear and in this one I posted scans of a late 1960's Paddy Pallin catalogue - the prices make for interesting reading!
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=5040

Here's a photo of me in 1971 having finished the Overland Track in my NZ John Bull boots with tricounis nailed to the arch, NZ pink miners socks, ex army canvas gaiters, navy woollen postmans pants, grey wool flannel miners shirt, NZ black Japara water "resistant" coat, black felt hat, and Flinders Ranges pack - and ex army WWII amunition pouch for my SLR camera bag!

I still have my Flinders Ranges backpack, Fairy Down "Everest" sleeping bag, NZ check wool shirt, and Borde "bomb" petrol stove from when I started bushwalking in 1968. I have only just retired the sleeping bag for one half the weight, but still use my Borde stove.

[tas-man]

Here's a photo of my Swiss Borde "Bomb" petrol stove in action!

[awildland]

Thought this would be a good discussion to share a couple of photos of my father's walk along the Overland Track in 1957 - I'm pretty sure all his gear was paddy pallin and I wouldn't be surprised if he still has his A-frame tent rotting away somewhere in the shed although the packs are unfortunately long gone. The first pic is of my dad's cousin Athol. I love these shot, particularly the second one of the two guys with the string bags. They were local farmers apparently who decided to give the 'new' track a look!! I've plenty more scanned in (from old slides) of the old huts and scenery, if anyone wants to see more than I'm happy to post them.

[Moondog55]

YES
Please post, I would love to see them

[awildland]

no worries Moondog. I might post them as a separate topic thing as there are quite a few. I have a few on my desktop but will have to track down the backup disk for some of the others.

but here's one of old windemere hut, 1957, as another taster!

[icefest]

I am envious of the Borde Bomb.
Not that I'm unhappy with my current winter stove.

[thejungleisneutral]

Unable to find a Borde Bomb, I have had to "make do" with an Optimus Svea 123R, well, a pair of them actually - one is current production (made in Taiwan I believe) and the other is 1960s vintage Swedish Made. The two are identical in operation and efficiency, and doing the sums, a Svea 123R with fuel is lighter in weight than my MSR Whisperlite international with the same amount of fuel. I usually use the Svea 123R with an aluminium WWII-era military canteen cup, with various cook sets, with my RM Williams quart pot or with a 1lt Cecil & Co tin billycan. I'm heading down to Freycinet later this month and I'll use one of them down there too.



Tas-Man, you inspired me with your pic


It works great. It accompanied me on trips all last year, including a Katoomba to Mittagong and it was light, non-tiring to carry, well protected from scrapes, and it kept the camera close to hand at all times. For wet weather I used the pouch with a small sea to summit dry bag. The pockets on the sides easily carry a couple of spare batteries and a sleeve of spare SD cards. Spare lens was carried in my pack. I figured if I was going to be swapping lenses I'd be stopping to doff the pack anyway. Thanks for the tip - this is how I carry my camera out bush now. Cheers!


P42 Bergan A-frame (left) and Paddymade Explorer H-Frame (right)

I have a few different vintage rucksacks now - a Pattern 42 A-frame Bergan, a Paddymade Federation Deluxe A-frame rucksack, a Paddymade Explorer H-frame pack and a French Model 51 X-frame rucksack. My opinion of the A-frames is not very good. I find them fine to carry a 15 kg load over relatively flat terrain, but once you start carrying them up hills, it feels like you're being pulled backwards by the shoulders while being kicked in the kidneys with every step. In stark contrast, the H Frame is super comfy and has a great carrying capacity, but I find it much clunkier to work with than the traditional A-frames. Maybe I just don't like the design of the bag itself all that much. My pick of the old-timey packs so far would have to be the X-frame. As far as I know, this frame wasn't seen much on civilian packs, but I find it lightweight and comfortable. The design of the French bag itself isn't much to write home about. It's essentially a large main sack with an external pocket on each side. It's probably a bit wide for scrub bashing, but for on-track stuff it's been fine.

French Model 51 X-frame rucksack front



Same rucksack, showing the X frame


I won't get started rabbiting on about the turn of the 20th century, Dunphy-style bushwalking swags just yet

I've done a few "historical" walks now in these - late 1970s army AB boots.


The uppers are identical to Australian WWII army boots, but are black rather than brown. They are still leather soled, but instead of hobnails or cleats, they have have been fitted with a screw-on rubber Sherpa-brand commando sole. They do the job, but take a bit of breaking in. Despite using the time-honoured methods of breaking in obsolete boots - soak in warm water, then wear them until they've dried, and hit them inside and out with neatsfoot oil - they gave me horrendous blisters the first couple of times I walked more than 10km in them. They are dialed in now. I wear them with American lace-up canvas gaiters which seem to take an eternity to don and doff. The boots themselves are soft and supple while giving good ankle support and positive traction in the wet. They are wearing well but are too heavy for my liking.

[Moondog55]

Actually there is a substantial difference between Boots-AB and the old red brown ones, the WW2 boot has a squared toe box with plenty of wriggle room and the newer iteration has that toe box rounded in two directions so not as much wriggle room, also the old boots were a Norwegian stitched with wide edges.
The new boot was cheaper to make
Love the LW Linesmans pouch

[thejungleisneutral]

Actually there is a substantial difference between Boots-AB and the old red brown ones, the WW2 boot has a squared toe box with plenty of wriggle room and the newer iteration has that toe box rounded in two directions so not as much wriggle room, also the old boots were a Norwegian stitched with wide edges.
The new boot was cheaper to make
Love the LW Linesmans pouch

You're right, I hadn't noticed the difference. I pulled out my 1968-vintage cleated AB boots to satisfy my own curiosity. Much squarer toe box than those made a decade later.

Boxy


I don't have any WWII-era boots to compare them to, but here's a pair of repro WWI boots I'll be using on a Big Walk later in the year. Seem to have a relatively square toe as well.


Any idea why they went with a rounder toe in later years?

[thejungleisneutral]

Having re-read Moondog's initial post, I realised that we haven't really addressed his idea of an historical walking group using pre-1975 equipment.

So to get started, and to turn this thread into a manifesto of sorts, let's take a look at what equipment you might need...

Packs?
Shelter?
Sleeping?
Cooking & Eating?
Water carriage and purification?
Rain protection?
Tools, torches and gadgets?
Personal hygiene items?
Navigation equipment?
Footwear?
Food?

What did you use?

[Moondog55]

It's funny but my Pre-1975 walking was done [ as with most Scouts] with a mixture of old WW2 gear and what we could scrounge from home.
My rucksack was a "Flinders Ranges" A-frame with 3 pockets on the front but at first it was a P-08 army rucksack with bits tied on everywhere. Shelter was an old rubberised Malayan period poncho
Sleeping was a couple of woollen blankets and an old cotton sheet to keep said blankets reasonably clean
Army water bottle and Tupperware flasks if we every purified water it was by making tea
What rain protection? If it rained we got wet
Boiled water over an open fire in a tin can billy and ate from army mess tin using scrounged cutlery
No tools No gadgets and I seem to remember no torches
Personal hygiene??? LOL Not unless you count toilet paper and a small scrap of Velvet laundry soap
No compass just a map and knowing from where the sun rose and set
Old army boots or Dunlop tennis shoes
Rice, rolled oat porridge and Dewcrisp veges with noodles [ anybody remember those?] and tinned corned beef or sardines, dried fruit and bacon. Fresh eggs wrapped in tissue paper and stored with the tea and sugar in the billy.
All cooking was done over the open fire and burnt porridge was a way of life

[thejungleisneutral]

Nice one.

I wasn't around back then and grew up with nylon and dome tents, so here's what I guess you might call an "interpretation" of the old way of doing things, using the gear I've been able to scrounge up over the past 12 months or so...

Packs & Carry -

1950s Paddymade Federation Deluxe A-frame rucksack
WWII ex-army lightweight respirator case (camera case)
Calico drawstring billy bag
Calico drawstring tucker bag

Shelter -

1973 Paddymade "Glen" lightweight japara two-man tent
WWII ex-army jungle groundsheet
1962 ex-army mosquito net

Sleeping -

WWII ex-army M1944 Arctic sleeping bag outer (down - used on cold weather trips only - surprisingly light weight)
1968 ex-army wool "horse blanket" with "silk" liner (they clip together - for three season use)
1969 ex-army 3-cell air mattress cover (fill with dead leaves or grass for insulation)
4 or 5 pages of "The Australian" newspaper

Cooking & Eating -

1945 ex-army aluminium canteen cup (nests with the canteen so it comes along anyway)
1lt aluminium billycan
1968 ex-army small mess tin
1968 ex-army spoon
Light fencing wire tripod ring and billy hook

Water Carriage & Purification -

1956 ex-army aluminium canteen
7 litre flax water bag (usually carried empty and used for cool water in camp, but can be hand-carried full)
1945 ex-army Milbank water filter bag
Small eyedropper bottle of liquid bleach for chemical water purification

Rain protection -

Black japara

Tools, Torches & Gadgets -

WWII ex-army clasp knife
2 C-cell incandescent torch
Candle
Lighter
Matches
First Aid Outfit (modern first aid items packed into a tobacco tin sealed with cloth tape, dressings and bandages carried in a plastic bag)

Personal Hygiene items -

Toilet paper
Toothbrush & paste
Half bar of soap
Flannel-sized section of cotton towel

Navigation Equipment -

Paper map of area in clear plastic bag
Lensatic "Engineer" compass (Vintage 1960s Japanese copy)
Pencil
Notebook
Rectangular protractor

Footwear -

Repro WWII canvas gaiters
Ex-army AB Boots with rubber Sherpa soles
or
Canvas & rubber Israeli "scout" boots

Food Types -

Fresh apples
Home-dried mixed vegetables
Oxo cubes
Twice-baked Sao biscuits
Pumpernickel bread
Jam in a tiny glass jar
Corned beef or luncheon meat in a tin
Home dried cooked beef mince
Cup a soup (beef, chicken noodle, cream of chicken, tomato)
Powdered egg
Kaiserfleish bacon (unsliced)
Potato powder
Tiny glass jar with ghee (clarified butter - substitute for dripping)
Barley sugar lollies
Chocolate
Beef jerky
Dried fruit
Tinned fruit
Tea leaves
Ground coffee
Salt
Pepper
Sugar
Curry powder
Mustard powder

Will take some uncooked rice and some rolled oats next time to see how badly I can prepare them

[Moondog55]

You'll have to exchange the Cuppa-soups for the long cooking packet type and start looking for old film canisters, that's what we used to carry the Vegemite in, add flour for making damper with.
We never used aluminium for the cups; back when I was starting to walk it would have been an enameled mug if remember correctly
Make sure the lighter is the proper type, While I can't remember for sure what the old bloke who were smokers were using my Grandfather used his WW1 trench lighter his whole life so it was probably one of those and I seem to remember the "Permanent Match" also being available

[thejungleisneutral]

You'll have to exchange the Cuppa-soups for the long cooking packet type and start looking for old film canisters, that's what we used to carry the Vegemite in, add flour for making damper with.
We never used aluminium for the cups; back when I was starting to walk it would have been an enameled mug if remember correctly
Make sure the lighter is the proper type, While I can't remember for sure what the old bloke who were smokers were using my Grandfather used his WW1 trench lighter his whole life so it was probably one of those and I seem to remember the "Permanent Match" also being available

On the topic of bushwalking food... does anyone remember the Rosella brand dried meals of the 60s and 70s? What were they like? I keep picturing something like modern Ccontinental fried rice packets, but with extra veggies and bits of dried meat.

Long cooking soup - check
Film canisters - these I do have experience with. Did the same thing back when I was in Scouts and Venturers
Flour - check
Mug - I think I've been using a cups, canteen for too long. I have a couple of enamel pannikins, suitably chipped
Lighter - Were there many Zippos around back then? I have a Zippo in the shed, and now that I think of it I do remember buying a metal permanent match off the Bay of E a fair while ago, so that's probably in the shed too.
Matches - I'm doing a 1915 reenactment walk over 520km in September and I was able to find a full tin of Bell's wax vestas, which for the casual reader were a short strike-anywhere match with a wax instead of wooden "stick". Not surprisingly they no longer work, so I filled the tin with a box of 1950s-era Federal safety matches, which still work perfectly. Threw a few modern NATO lifeboat matches in the tin as well, just in case they get damp. I epoxied a striker pad from a modern Exotac match safe to the bottom of the Bell's vesta tin and gave it a hit with some spray lacquer to help it hold together if it gets soaked on the track.