World Heritage Listed Blue Mountains threatened by dam plan

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Re: World Heritage Listed Blue Mountains threatened by dam p

Postby DaveNoble » Thu 02 May, 2013 7:55 pm

More information here -

http://www.dontraisethedam.com

Please help the cause by taking action. The website makes this easy.

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Re: World Heritage Listed Blue Mountains threatened by dam p

Postby michael_p » Thu 07 Jun, 2018 12:53 pm

Just bumping this thread as it is 2018 and this is still going forward: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-06-07/w ... es/9840694

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Re: World Heritage Listed Blue Mountains threatened by dam p

Postby FatCanyoner » Thu 07 Jun, 2018 4:20 pm

Michael, thanks for sharing that.
For people who want more info or want to get involved in the campaign, check out: https://www.wildrivers.org.au
This is an extraordinary proposal that is right up there with the NSW Government's protection of feral horses in the high country. I don't think there's been a government this contemptuous of our natural heritage in my lifetime!
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Re: World Heritage Listed Blue Mountains threatened by dam p

Postby FatCanyoner » Tue 26 Jun, 2018 4:25 pm

For anyone who is interested in the issue, I've just had a piece published in The Guardian outlining why this is such a bad idea and how -- if it goes ahead -- a precedent will have been set that threatens wilderness areas throughout the country.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... whats-safe
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Re: World Heritage Listed Blue Mountains threatened by dam p

Postby michael_p » Tue 26 Jun, 2018 7:16 pm

Excellent article FatCanyoner. Well written.

Cheers,
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Re: World Heritage Listed Blue Mountains threatened by dam p

Postby wildwanderer » Tue 26 Jun, 2018 9:47 pm

One thing Im not clear on.

If the dam wall is raised when will the inundation into the NP occur? Will it start immediately, or would it not occur until enough rain fell to cause the dam water level to rise to above the current wall height?

or is its something to do with no longer needing to engage the spillway water release? (if the dam is raised)
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Re: World Heritage Listed Blue Mountains threatened by dam p

Postby Xplora » Wed 27 Jun, 2018 7:43 am

Interesting article Tim and some interesting comments also. Flood mitigation using dams is old and doesn't work when you increase the demand for water by expanding the available area for city growth. As the population increases then demand for water will cause governments to forget about mitigation and think more about providing water for the people. The dam at the new full capacity is more of a risk. I have been into the bowels of the dam to where the tourists were never allowed and shown the cracks. I was told then it is not a matter of if the dam will fail but when. A plan was developed for this failure and then revised when the wall was increased. Flooding will occur to Blacktown. Add 14m and that could mean Flemington or further. One way to destroy Sydney. A city of 5,000,000 or more relying on one water supply. Sydney should have more regional water supply and Prospect is just not enough. There is still some talk from time to time about building a dam on the Grose River and I actually met the man who did the survey many years ago by chance at Barrington Tops.

All the big floods I have been in around the Hawkesbury/Nepean have been due to the tributaries feeding the river below the dam being at capacity, cause more by the increased hard surface runoff, before they decide to release the dam because it is at capacity. This causes a rush of water that does not allow the small creeks and rivers to empty into the main river. They overflow and inundate communities. The main river causes very little problem as those living on it are better prepared and the farmland beside the river benefits from the alluvial deposits. The dam should be released well before the small creeks and rivers get to capacity but they don't want to risk unnecessarily losing water that is needed to supply the city. The dam is in fact the main contributor to the flood problem, apart from the one freak event before it was built. Perhaps it is not so much the dam but the people (or authorities) who have control of it. The river is also tidal to Windsor which means twice a day there is a big push which will raise the height of the floodwaters by up to a metre and stop more water from the small rivers and creeks from being about to enter.

Hard surface runoff has been recognised for some time as a major cause of urban flooding and I think most councils still mandate some kind of water catchment for every new house. Well they were when I lived there. The storage capacity was determined by the area of hard surface and the tank was fitted with a flow control plate that regulated the amount of water discharged to stormwater. An average house would be required to have around 4000l capacity which is bugger all. Managing hard surface runoff with an ever increasing population is impossible. More roads, roofs, driveways all cause the small creeks and rivers to reach capacity sooner which then would require the dam to be released sooner but instead the decision is made to hold the dam water because releasing it would certainly cause flooding. I feel in some ways what I have written is a little contradictory but it highlights the problem facing a rapidly growing city.

The problem is also about successive governments with no vision and who are capital city centred in their thinking. Those looking to cash in on this will always see land as being the best option for a quick buck.
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Re: World Heritage Listed Blue Mountains threatened by dam p

Postby LachlanB » Wed 27 Jun, 2018 10:43 am

Xplora wrote: I have been into the bowels of the dam to where the tourists were never allowed and shown the cracks. I was told then it is not a matter of if the dam will fail but when. A plan was developed for this failure and then revised when the wall was increased. Flooding will occur to Blacktown.


Eeek. Right now, I'm very glad that I live on the Nepean upstream of the junction with the Warragamba River, rather than downstream of it.

And an excellent article Tim!
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Re: World Heritage Listed Blue Mountains threatened by dam p

Postby Xplora » Wed 27 Jun, 2018 11:42 am

LachlanB wrote:Eeek. Right now, I'm very glad that I live on the Nepean upstream of the junction with the Warragamba River, rather than downstream of it.


I'm glad I don't live in Sydney anymore. Very little chance of any amount of rain flooding me now. At least if the dam breaks then all those people will have insurance. That is comforting.
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Re: World Heritage Listed Blue Mountains threatened by dam p

Postby rcaffin » Wed 27 Jun, 2018 11:59 am

At least if the dam breaks then all those people will have insurance. That is comforting.

You jest!
The government may be a bunch of venial idiots, but the insurance companies are NOT. They know the risks of floodplains and the flood insurance premiums for houses built there will be huge. So huge that people trying to buy cheap land out there will not be able afford to pay the premiums - and won't.

So what happens WHEN the river floods the plains? (Not if, but when.) Huge outcry, big enquiry, no simple solutions (apart from removing all the houses on the floodplain), but a demand that the government bail the home owners out. Yep - that means the NSW taxpayers will have to pick up all the costs, while the developers and those in the government who made a tidy sum on the side will escape scott-free.

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Re: World Heritage Listed Blue Mountains threatened by dam p

Postby Warin » Wed 27 Jun, 2018 12:47 pm

rcaffin wrote:So what happens WHEN the river floods the plains? (Not if, but when.) Huge outcry, big enquiry, no simple solutions (apart from removing all the houses on the floodplain), but a demand that the government bail the home owners out. Yep - that means the NSW taxpayers will have to pick up all the costs,


You have forgotten the public 'oh, those poor people' and the collections of money to help them out ... that happens far quicker than the gobernit acting .. the collection of the money happens quicker .. distribution is another matter. Salvos, Red Cross .. they will all have collections running .. the Sallys and Red Cross will actually help though.
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Re: World Heritage Listed Blue Mountains threatened by dam p

Postby Xplora » Thu 28 Jun, 2018 7:06 am

rcaffin wrote:
At least if the dam breaks then all those people will have insurance. That is comforting.

You jest!

Yes. More like sarcasm.

And with all the additional hard surface created by residential development the entire western suburbs will be uninhabitable due to the temperature increase. This is not a global warming or climate change thing as such. The trees and earth help to regulate temperature and hard surface stores it. Those stinking hot nights where the temp does not drop below 30 degrees will end up 40 degrees with 50 plus during the day. There is no good reason to continue this expansion of a capital city when regional centres could take a great deal of burden. The ACT was created to house the federal government and it was in the middle of nothing (not saying NSW was nothing just that there was nothing there). Sydney (and the NSW parliament) still looks at the Blue Mtns as some great wall impeding any attempt to get over it.
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Re: World Heritage Listed Blue Mountains threatened by dam p

Postby wildwanderer » Thu 28 Jun, 2018 7:43 pm

Xplora wrote:. Sydney (and the NSW parliament) still looks at the Blue Mtns as some great wall impeding any attempt to get over it.


Agree.

Lithgow and beyond…there is no reason why many people and businesses could not move out there. I feel Sydney has this preoccupation with keeping to the coast. I can’t see much difference between Lithgow and say Penrith in regard to lifestyle. Both have excellent national parks and waterways nearby.

As much as I dislike most of Barnaby Joyce’s policy ideas some of his plans to move government depts to regional areas made sense. However, they needed to be appropriate and non specialist. Trying to move the Pesticides and Veterinary Medicines Authority from Canberra to Armidale was a dumb idea. At the end of the day if there isn’t a wide variety of jobs available in the regional area then people wont move.

Sorry got a bit off topic there!
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Re: World Heritage Listed Blue Mountains threatened by dam p

Postby Hallu » Fri 29 Jun, 2018 6:23 pm

It doesn't cost them much to just dip their toes in the water and see if that project has legs. There are still dam projects being drafted in Yellowstone or the Grand Canyon. They have been for over a century now. You still get insane people who think natural resources are to be used for man and isn't supposed to be preserved if it can be useful. They're just testing the public opinion to see if there's opposition. I mean when you're aproving a giant commercial port in front of the endangered Great Barrier Reef, then why not a huge dam in the Blue Mountains ? Everyone needs to be vigilant in order to make sure these crazy projects never happen...
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Re: World Heritage Listed Blue Mountains threatened by dam p

Postby Warin » Fri 29 Jun, 2018 7:03 pm

wildwanderer wrote:
Xplora wrote:. Sydney (and the NSW parliament) still looks at the Blue Mtns as some great wall impeding any attempt to get over it.


Agree.

Lithgow and beyond…there is no reason why many people and businesses could not move out there. I feel Sydney has this preoccupation with keeping to the coast. I can’t see much difference between Lithgow and say Penrith in regard to lifestyle.


Small differences regarding;
* climate - Lithgow 5C colder minimums and 5C warmer maximums than in Penrith. (Penrith - http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/dwo/IDCJD ... test.shtml
Lithgow - http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/dwo/IDCJD ... test.shtml) Climate wise there are advantages to being closer to the coast.
* access to facilities (university, major art galleries, major museums, major hospitals, State Library, events like Vivid, Syd Festival ...

Me? I'd rather be on the coast than inland.
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Re: World Heritage Listed Blue Mountains threatened by dam p

Postby Xplora » Sat 30 Jun, 2018 7:27 am

Warin wrote:Small differences regarding;
* climate - Lithgow 5C colder minimums and 5C warmer maximums than in Penrith. (Penrith - http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/dwo/IDCJD ... test.shtml
Lithgow - http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/dwo/IDCJD ... test.shtml) Climate wise there are advantages to being closer to the coast.
* access to facilities (university, major art galleries, major museums, major hospitals, State Library, events like Vivid, Syd Festival ...

Me? I'd rather be on the coast than inland.


Penrith is hardly on the coast and is not affected by the coastal climate factors where you can get a cool breeze. The temperature data I found indicates Penrith is about 5 degrees hotter (max and min) than Lithgow during summer. Is that what you meant? At 950m asl it will never be hotter on average than Penrith which is around 25m. I can accept some people do like the advantages of big city living for the reasons you have stated but there are many things also on offer in regional areas which would attract a different type of person. Bathurst also has fantastic university and hospitals grow with the population. Regional areas have many cultural exchanges and Sporting opportunities are excellent. Governments can take pressure of cities by offering incentives for regional development. People need jobs to go to and they will move if there is opportunity. I know this is on the fringe of the topic but it relates as much as a lesser need for development of flood affected areas will mean there is less need for flood mitigation and water. Sydney is running out of places to expand and it will end up gobbling all the green space for housing. The flow on effect for that is increase in temperature, travel time, crime and general hostility etc. The cost of the alternative could be less than adding to the dam wall and the greedy land grabbers can still take a piece of the pie if they buy cheaper land in regional areas then sell it off to the tree changers.
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Re: World Heritage Listed Blue Mountains threatened by dam p

Postby michael_p » Sun 01 Jul, 2018 10:44 am

And now you wont be able to protest against the dam raising on public land: https://www.sydneycriminallawyers.com.a ... atherings/
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Re: World Heritage Listed Blue Mountains threatened by dam p

Postby davidf » Mon 02 Jul, 2018 2:35 pm

Rather disturbing michael_p.

Btw OT. The satellite cities and towns outside the Sydney basin offer a lot. Lithgow is 30mins by push bike to the wollemi, 10min Marangaroo np, 40 mins kanangra (car) etc. Local fishing and bike riding. Sydney does not have this in a good setting, unless you like meriton towers. The weather is great.
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Re: World Heritage Listed Blue Mountains threatened by dam p

Postby ribuck » Mon 02 Jul, 2018 8:24 pm

davidf wrote:Lithgow is ... 40 mins kanangra (car)
That's impressive. It takes me over an hour with all those potholes.
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Re: World Heritage Listed Blue Mountains threatened by dam p

Postby wildwanderer » Thu 26 Jul, 2018 11:35 am

Paddy Pallin are running a photo comp to support the save the dam campaign.
They are donating $2 for every photo entry. Entry is free.
I think its great that they are actively supporting, so consider uploading a photo and supporting the dam cause at the same time.

Details here - https://www.paddypallin.com.au/contest/wild-rivers.html

Note – I have no affiliation with Paddy Pallin.
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Re: World Heritage Listed Blue Mountains threatened by dam p

Postby FatCanyoner » Thu 27 Sep, 2018 2:40 pm

Sorry to bombard people, but the NSW Government have now introduced legislation that would overturn the existing ban on flooding national park land so they can press ahead with this dam raising plan. There is currently a very short parliamentary inquiry into the change (the Liberals and Nationals have the numbers, so it's just a formality). This is a hugely important issue because it risks setting a very dangerous precedent that will undermine the protection of every other piece of national park estate in the country.

I've written an article that ran in the Sydney Morning Herald today highlighting what is happening and what the motivation is (you can read it here: https://www.smh.com.au/environment/cons ... 5064v.html).

Please take a moment to sign the petition or get involved in the campaign here: https://www.wildrivers.org.au/
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Re: World Heritage Listed Blue Mountains threatened by dam p

Postby potato » Thu 27 Sep, 2018 3:49 pm

Nice article - thanks for getting some of the facts out there. It's hard arguing against engineers who think they know best and politician who want something to announce. When is the next NSW election? Or maybe it can be an election issue for Bill just like the Franklin was for Bob..?
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Re: World Heritage Listed Blue Mountains threatened by dam p

Postby tom_brennan » Fri 28 Sep, 2018 7:14 pm

The 14m dam raising is based on a cost/benefit table in the Infrastructure NSW report: Hawkesbury-Nepean Valley Flood Risk Management Strategy
http://www.insw.com/media/1534/insw_hnv ... __1_v2.pdf<http://www.insw.com/media/1534/insw_hnvfloodstrategy__1_v2.pdf>

I asked Infrastructure NSW for a more detailed breakdown of those costs and benefits, and the assumptions underpinning them. When I first contacted them, they replied to me in a few days saying they would get back to me with a response.

I have since emailed them twice more, but sparrows...

I'd be interested in seeing whether it was a rigorous cost/benefit analysis, or if it was a predetermined conclusion, and the assumptions and numbers were fiddled to fit.
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Re: World Heritage Listed Blue Mountains threatened by dam p

Postby north-north-west » Sat 29 Sep, 2018 10:42 am

tom_brennan wrote:I'd be interested in seeing whether it was a rigorous cost/benefit analysis, or if it was a predetermined conclusion, and the assumptions and numbers were fiddled to fit.


I'd lay odds on the latter.
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