Marketing Hype or Will you do this too?

[DanYong]

Hi everyone,

As you may have seen, recently there's a new ad on Apple's website promoting the ipad's use on high mountain, extreme environments. It appears the two expert climbers are relying it solely for navigation.

http://www.apple.com/your-verse/elevating-expedition/

Personally I think its crazy. But what do you guys think? Will you do it to?

[Mark F]

Absolutely bonkers! Their iPad must be able to run for days without recharging - no recharging gear in the packs and they don't bother to take their compass past base camp. Can't wait for the obituary. "They were found dead in a snow drift on the wrong side of the mountain. Their iPad had run out of battery power and they left their compass at base camp."

[Lophophaps]

Absolutely bonkers! Their iPad must be able to run for days without recharging - no recharging gear in the packs and they don't bother to take their compass past base camp. Can't wait for the obituary. "They were found dead in a snow drift on the wrong side of the mountain. Their iPad had run out of battery power and they left their compass at base camp."

Mark, precisely The hype is to match the image. Using a GPS on rainy or overcast day or in a thick forest is not visually appealing. But a real mountain! This will sell iPads. Gear should have two purposes. The gadget would make a good bum mat. A very small bivvy shelter? Maybe not. A snow anchor. Signal mirror when the battery fails at minus 2.5 degrees C.

[DanYong]

Taken from the macrumors.com forums.....
I hope Apple has a disclaimer when somebody dies becos the ipad was his only navigation instrument...

[David M]

Insane. Unlike a dedicated GPS the iThing is not waterproof or ruggedised and does not take standard AA batteries (or any replaceable batteries).

[wayno]

fine print disclaimer at the bottom

*The continued use of GPS will decrease iPad battery life. Battery life will vary by use and configuration. For more information, see http://www.apple.com/batteries.

wheres the other disclaimer saying the people in the ad were provided the ipad free of charge or were being sponsored by apple...

see what cold weather does for the battery life of your ipad... let alone running the gps on it. bright day out in the snow, have to maximise the screen brightness to read it..... massive screen, massive power consumption... the longer your trip the more time the ipad will spend in your pack as an expensive brick...

[GPSGuided]

Like airline cockpit, electronic tablet is the future for the map and document keeping and clearly this is just a marketing message into a potential future market. Not to be taken too seriously just right now. Who knows what kinds of tablets there will be in another few years. Can certainly see how nice it can be to have an iPad mini sized tablet on walks and at camp.

[DanYong]

Like airline cockpit, electronic tablet is the future for the map and document keeping and clearly this is just a marketing message into a potential future market. Not to be taken too seriously just right now. Who knows what kinds of tablets there will be in another few years. Can certainly see how nice it can be to have an iPad mini sized tablet on walks and at camp.

A flight deck has power supply, heating and has multiple dedundant systems. It'll be fool hardy not to carry a compass and dedicated GPRS on the mountain. The iPad battery wouldn't last very long out there.

[GPSGuided]

A flight deck has power supply, heating and has multiple dedundant systems. It'll be fool hardy not to carry a compass and dedicated GPRS on the mountain. The iPad battery wouldn't last very long out there.

As said, don't get too serious on it. This present is but a proof of concept and there will be improvements in the various technical factors in time. A few years ago, who'd think a 9-10 hrs battery life is possible with such a device?

[wayno]

and apple are advertising it as a viable alternative for navigation on the trail in extreme conditions today....

[Mark F]

As I have thought about it, what shocks me most is that two so called professional mountaineers would put the names and images to such an ill considered bit of marketing. They would appear to be associated with a company called Alpenglow Expeditions (named in the marketing).

From the Alpenglow website: "All Alpenglow expeditions and climbs are led by AMGA/IFMGA certified guides. The AMGA/IFMGA certification is an internationally recognized mountaineering certification that is considered the highest credential attainable by a mountain guide. There are approximately 75 AMGA/IFMGA Certified Mountain Guides in the USA, all of whom represent the apex of American mountain guiding."

I for one will be posting on the Alpenglow website and contacting the AMGA/IFMGA to express my concerns.

[Lindsay]

It will work perfectly - right up to the point where they step off the edge of a cliff...

[wayno]

money talks.... theres no mention of chargers in the article and this isnt a device where the user can change the battery in the field either...

[perfectlydark]

Its just another marketting gimmick guys. Im sure as many people will buy an ipad to climb a mountain as there are people that buy them to be a dj (in another apple ad)
I really dont think we are going to see a wave of iDead people on high peaks

[Mark F]

One iDead will be one too many.

[izogi]

Its just another marketting gimmick guys. Im sure as many people will buy an ipad to climb a mountain as there are people that buy them to be a dj (in another apple ad)
I really dont think we are going to see a wave of iDead people on high peaks

Neither. I'd have trouble imagining this bit of marketing would affect how serious climbers go about their thing. Most know their stuff, though from time to time I've run into alpine climbers who seem to be absurdly proud of not being able to navigate their way out of a paper bag, and have no interest in trying to learn further nav or awareness skills "because I can just use my GPS".

That said. I'd be more concerned about the message this might send to people who generally get outdoors to a lesser extent, as if a gizmo like an iPad (which someone might well already own) can fully and safely replace actual navigation skills and other gear. Tablets and smartphones and whatever can be useful within their limitations and with the right precautions, just as any other equipment, but more than a few people who've transitioned from urban environments already seem to think they're a complete substitute for everything that came before. This type of marketing will only reinforce that way of thinking.

[radson]

Its a marketing gimmick but I have used my iPad in temps approaching -15 in my tent. Yes the battery drains quicker but still usable for several hours.

[Lophophaps]

Neither. I'd have trouble imagining this bit of marketing would affect how serious climbers go about their thing. Most know their stuff, though from time to time I've run into alpine climbers who seem to be absurdly proud of not being able to navigate their way out of a paper bag, and have no interest in trying to learn further nav or awareness skills "because I can just use my GPS".

That said. I'd be more concerned about the message this might send to people who generally get outdoors to a lesser extent, as if a gizmo like an iPad (which someone might well already own) can fully and safely replace actual navigation skills and other gear. Tablets and smartphones and whatever can be useful within their limitations and with the right precautions, just as any other equipment, but more than a few people who've transitioned from urban environments already seem to think they're a complete substitute for everything that came before. This type of marketing will only reinforce that way of thinking.

True. Before GPS there was compass and map. The advantage of being able to navigate without a GPS is that there is less to go wrong. Having technology as the first and main method of navigation is not good. Using technology as a substitute for experience and judgement is ill-advised. I wonder how many people who use a GPS and do not have much compass skills know expressions such as intentional offset, back-bearing, handrail and fall-line. I've seen people in really clear conditions in major locations such as a peak or saddle consulting their GPS to make sure that they are where they should be.

[radson]

I am kind of in the technophile camp. Plenty can go wrong with a map or compass as well. Maps get trashed and blown away in winds. Planes and boats use technology all the time as their first and main method of navigation. In a snowstorm/whiteout, gps is my friend As long as you know how to use your main piece of navigation then you should be right .Its nice to have a map and compass backup but each to their own.

[izogi]

I think an aspect I'm getting at, though, is that navigation is a skill, not a specific piece of gear. It's also a skill that correlates lots with a map and compass if only because full-on use of those tools usually requires much more conscious environmental and location awareness.

It's absolutely feasible to use electronic gadgets totally safely and responsibly, and in conjunction with other navigation skills, but if you're simply letting a digital device tell you where you are and where to go the entire time, with no further effort to consciously understand where you are, what's around you our where you're going, you're far more likely to be screwed as soon as it's compromised.

[wayno]

so will this guiding company advocate to their clients to use ipads as a preferential device for navigation?

[GPSGuided]

Check out the concurrent thread 'Getting lost:It's as easy as...'

[izogi]

Extending from DanYong's point about the operating temperature requirements, Apple's iPad warranty (link to US version which seems most relevant to this marketing) specifically states that "This Warranty does not apply: ... (e) to damage caused by operating the Apple Product outside Apple’s published guidelines".

So they're effectively suggesting people use their product in a way that'd void the warranty, unless it never goes below freezing up any of their mountains.

[DanYong]

As I have thought about it, what shocks me most is that two so called professional mountaineers would put the names and images to such an ill considered bit of marketing. They would appear to be associated with a company called Alpenglow Expeditions (named in the marketing).

From the Alpenglow website: "All Alpenglow expeditions and climbs are led by AMGA/IFMGA certified guides. The AMGA/IFMGA certification is an internationally recognized mountaineering certification that is considered the highest credential attainable by a mountain guide. There are approximately 75 AMGA/IFMGA Certified Mountain Guides in the USA, all of whom represent the apex of American mountain guiding."

I for one will be posting on the Alpenglow website and contacting the AMGA/IFMGA to express my concerns.

Good spotting on their website and for linking the dots.... We can't let big money and big corporations buy their way to professional endorsements. Imagine if doctors endorsed untested and risky methods becos they had some big sponsor. IMO AMGA shd maintain high standards. This sends the wrong message and potentially undoing years of hard earned reputation of the association.

[radson]

As I have thought about it, what shocks me most is that two so called professional mountaineers would put the names and images to such an ill considered bit of marketing. They would appear to be associated with a company called Alpenglow Expeditions (named in the marketing).

From the Alpenglow website: "All Alpenglow expeditions and climbs are led by AMGA/IFMGA certified guides. The AMGA/IFMGA certification is an internationally recognized mountaineering certification that is considered the highest credential attainable by a mountain guide. There are approximately 75 AMGA/IFMGA Certified Mountain Guides in the USA, all of whom represent the apex of American mountain guiding."

I for one will be posting on the Alpenglow website and contacting the AMGA/IFMGA to express my concerns.

Good spotting on their website and for linking the dots.... We can't let big money and big corporations buy their way to professional endorsements. Imagine if doctors endorsed untested and risky methods becos they had some big sponsor. IMO AMGA shd maintain high standards. This sends the wrong message and potentially undoing years of hard earned reputation of the association.

Seriously? Companies buy endorsements all the time. Thats how the whole industry works. Companies sponsor the top guys so all us plebs buy their products..and by the wat Doctors are notorious for pushing products from big pharma

btw, Adrian is a seriously cool guy and an amazing athlete. iPads and for me macbook airs are invaluable tools on big trips.

[DanYong]

Here's another reason why u shd never use an idevice or anything similar as your ONLY navigation tool.... In extreme conditions or even at home, it might just turn into solid fuel....

http://9to5mac.com/2014/02/22/this-is-w ... -explodes/

[GPSGuided]

Frankly, I actually believe they can use an iPad successfully for their tasks. Not as if they are amateurs. Isn't it all about experience and knowledge of one's equipment? As for environmental specs, it's normal practice to under-report what the devices are capable of. Not surprised if they have backup battery and other backup navigation gears.

Has alpine climbers always depended on paper map and compass? What about handheld GPS? If GPS has been adopted, moving to an iPad is hardly a technological challenge but a visual convenience. They probably had to invest in a new pair of touch screen compatible gloves though.

As for the image to the rest of the outdoor community. Well, people who are incompetent will probably get lost on paper map and compass. Then, their chance of knowing where they are would be worse. Not too different to how GPS car navigation has taken off. It's hardly rocket science these days to know how to use a GPS/iPad based mapping software.

Still, it's kind of entertaining to see how a subject like this can flare up a forum.

[nq111]

Don't phones and ipads get their location by triangulating phone towers (not true GPS)?

I would have thought heavier, less reliable and less useful than a true gps. You wouldn't get a location in many interesting parts.

But otherwise, I am all for any new technology that makes things easier. Love my true GPS

[GPSGuided]

Don't phones and ipads get their location by triangulating phone towers (not true GPS)?

Current generation iPad has Assisted GPS and GLONASS. In other words, they have traditional GPS and the Russian GLONASS services but is assisted by cellular tower triangulation when available to provide a faster lock. So yes, it's a full GPS/GLONASS device.

[izogi]

As for the image to the rest of the outdoor community. Well, people who are incompetent will probably get lost on paper map and compass. Then, their chance knowing where they are would be worse. Not too different how GPS car navigation has taken off.

Paper map and compass isn't really the point, though. It's development and practice of skills and techniques which involve actually taking note of where you are and where you're going within the surrounds. Availability of maps and compasses didn't kill this skill, they enhanced it. Most of the ways in which it's possible to even try to use them involves actually paying attention to what's outside your head. And if you're actually paying attention, you're less likely to have a serious issue with a single point of failure.

I agree that there's nothing wrong with using a GPS or an iPad generally and I'd be really surprised if these guys weren't completely capable. They're obviously useful tools, but they're only a single class of tool. Handheld GPS's introduction came with a totally new possibility of wayfinding which (if used that way, which can be very tempting) does discourage or outright obliterate nav skill. It encapsulates all of what used to be skill into the function of a external black box, then lets you follow it without needing any close attention to where you are, whatsoever. It's fine as long as your batteries last and you don't lose reception down a chasm somewhere or under too many trees, and you don't run into multipath errors with the signals bouncing around, and you don't damage or lose the device, or get into a situation where you can't easily use it, and so on.

For similar reasons, I don't like blindly following someone else on a trip without taking note of where I'm going, and I also get uncomfortable when people appear to be blindly following me. Sometimes there's no choice, but I dislike trusting everything to a GPS if I can help it.


In cars, GPS systems really have taken off. There's now a substantial portion of drivers out there who no longer know where they are or how to get anywhere if they lose it. I have at least a couple of friends in sprawling suburban Melbourne who still don't know how to get between home and work on their own, despite driving it every day for a year or more. They've simply never done themselves, except by constantly referring to their in-car satnav. A critical difference, though, is they're almost never at serious risk. If they somehow lose the GPS they'll never be away from a highway network and other passing vehicles.

Anyway, with consumer level GPS devices now being so commonly available in smartphones and tablets, nearly anyone with a desire can give themselves [what I'd argue is] false confidence and blindly follow it to remote places where they might not have gone before, and anecdotally this is apparently happening. My gripe with this iPad campaign, though, is that it just seems intuitively dodgy for a major manufacturer to now be encouraging and reinforcing all of the people who own or buy its devices to use them in this way in remote places, through a major marketing campaign that's obviously aimed at the general public, and not specifically alpine climbers who'd more likely get the context.

Still, it's kind of entertaining to see how a subject like this can flare up a forum.

Glad to be of service.