Walking in areas of significance to Tradtional Owners

[whitefang]

In a couple of weeks I will be heading up into the Flinders Ranges in South Australia and I intend to do the St. Mary's Peak hike in Flinders Ranges, NP. However, while researching this walk I discovered on the DEWNR website that the Adnyamathanha people prefer people not to summit St. Mary's Peak as it is central to their creation story. So my question is, what are everyone's thoughts on walking in areas that have high cultural significance to the Traditional Owners of the land? While it is not illegal to summit St. Mary's Peak is it morally wrong and disrespectful to do so?

I'm still pondering this question myself as to whether I should summit it or not...

[GPSGuided]

Oh, so difficult! It's the same story with Uluru these days. There are so many objective angles on both sides of the argument that after working through all of them, we ended up not climbing it. I think it's a case where if you start to consider it like what you are doing now, you'll likely to be so torn at the end that you won't do it. I think it's a case of if you want to climb it, then don't think. If you think, you'll likely to decide against it.

[DanShell]

It is a personal choice to decide if it is morally wrong imho.

I have been to Uluru twice and both times didn't climb it but not because of moral reasons.......I didn't want to fall of it!

[photohiker]

Ok, that's a shame. I went up there a couple of years ago to do just that and wild weather put me off.

Generally, I'd respect the Traditional owners. There are plenty of good walks in the area which is why I haven't gotten back to do it.

I climbed Uluru way back before it was suggested people not climb it. There have been a few people fall off it, but if you're sensible I don't think its much of a risk...

[walkerchris77]

Its our country too. I was born here. I will walk where I want.

[stepbystep]

It's really simple. Seek permission, if it's denied respect that. If it's approved be thankful.

@walkerchris77 you have much to learn. Your attitude is very sad.

[GPSGuided]

Its our country too. I was born here. I will walk where I want.

Not in someone's backyard unless invited I trust.

[highercountry]

@walkerchris77 you have much to learn. Your attitude is very sad.

My thoughts exactly.

[Mechanic-AL]

We as a race of people have spent the past 200 years being disrespectful of the traditional owners of this land. To seek permission to enter places of cultural significance to aboriginal people and then respect their decision shouldn't be such a big ask.
If walkerchris77 stole a car and then his son is born in the back seat does this then mean that the car BELONGS to his son?? I think not.
If people can't find amazing places in this country to go walking without pissing somebody off ( black or white) then they haven't looked around hard enough!!

[Jarrah]

It's really simple. Seek permission, if it's denied respect that. If it's approved be thankful.

Absolutely this. If I were visiting a church or another place that is sacred to someone's culture and they asked me to show respect then of course I would. I see this as being the same.

[walkerchris77]

Lol. U guys crack me up. You ask what ppl thought I gave u an answer. How many ppl on here have gone up ayers rock. ??? I went and choose not to . They ask you not to but many do. Thay ask u not to take photos but you can buy photos that were taken by a camera. They are happy to charge you to see it though. Australia is a great country and everyone should be able to enjoy it. No matter where u come from. And there are alot of places that people wouldn't even know their in a significant area. Happy walking all.

[stepbystep]

@walkerchris77 I'm glad you got a laugh out of this... For me this is a serious subject that calls for education and mindfulness. I can't contemplate the magnitude of 20,000 generations living in country. All I can do is acknowledge and pay respect in whatever form is necessary, and learn. 'They' have every right to do whatever they want with us tourists at Uluru, more power to them.

@whitefang I can probably give you the contacts for the custodians of that area if you want to contact them. I am sure they will welcome your request.

[stry]

Oh, so difficult! It's the same story with Uluru these days. There are so many objective angles on both sides of the argument that after working through all of them, we ended up not climbing it. I think it's a case where if you start to consider it like what you are doing now, you'll likely to be so torn at the end that you won't do it. I think it's a case of if you want to climb it, then don't think. If you think, you'll likely to decide against it.

In a couple of weeks I will be heading up into the Flinders Ranges in South Australia and I intend to do the St. Mary's Peak hike in Flinders Ranges, NP. However, while researching this walk I discovered on the DEWNR website that the Adnyamathanha people prefer people not to summit St. Mary's Peak as it is central to their creation story. So my question is, what are everyone's thoughts on walking in areas that have high cultural significance to the Traditional Owners of the land? While it is not illegal to summit St. Mary's Peak is it morally wrong and disrespectful to do so?

I'm still pondering this question myself as to whether I should summit it or not...

Both of these are climbed by school groups. My understanding is that the students have the indigenous view and the history explained to them by indigenous locals and are then free to choose as individuals whether to climb or not. Can't see a problem with that.

[DanShell]

Thay ask u not to take photos but you can buy photos that were taken by a camera. They are happy to charge you to see it though.

That's not the case at Uluru. Yes there are a couple of 'sacred' sites around the rock that photography is forbidden but your welcome to photograph the rest of it.
And 'they' don't try to sell you photos of the restricted areas.

[walkerchris77]

Thanks for the correction dan. I thought it was the whole rock. Just remember the no camera signs up. Its a great place although I liked kings canyon better.

[GPSGuided]

Both of these are climbed by school groups. My understanding is that the students have the indigenous view and the history explained to them by indigenous locals and are then free to choose as individuals whether to climb or not. Can't see a problem with that.

Not sure when you were last in Uluru but as of at least last year when we were there, no school group would lead their students up it. The climbers are a small minority of all tourists.

[GPSGuided]

That's not the case at Uluru. Yes there are a couple of 'sacred' sites around the rock that photography is forbidden but your welcome to photograph the rest of it.
And 'they' don't try to sell you photos of the restricted areas.

I can confirm this too as of last year. There are a number of sacred areas around the base of the rock. There's definitely no selling of photos that included those sacred areas.

[DanShell]

Thanks for the correction dan. I thought it was the whole rock. Just remember the no camera signs up. Its a great place although I liked kings canyon better.

I agree, sadly a young Brit lady fell to her death today at kings canyon.

[Walking_addict]

the Adnyamathanha people prefer people not to summit St. Mary's Peak as it is central to their creation story.

Try and get a definitive on their meaning of summit.
Many sacred peaks around the world this means just standing atop the peak, slightly below is not a problem to keep to the locals request.
If only the actual summit, then sit on a slightly lower formation and enjoy the views just as clear and long

Wilpena visitors centre should be able to help you what that info, some of the rangers might have ties and be able to assist with clarification or permission.

I've been up there numerous times, and never heard this before, going back maybe 10 - 15 years.

I didn't climb Uluru a few years ago, choosing to walk around it instead.

[Turfa]

I don't believe it is appropriate for me to try and impose my own religious beliefs (or lack thereof) onto other people, and I am grateful when other people show me the same courtesy. .....personally, I would hike St Mary Peak

[whitefang]

Walking_addict DEWNR suggest only walking up to Tanderra Saddle.

Stepbystep if you could give me the contact details of the custodians that would be excellent. I'm going to try and get their permission before I go.

Turfa, while I feel the same about imposing my beliefs on to others I do think that other people's beliefs should still be respected. It's just like taking your shoes off when entering buddhist temples, etc, etc.

[geoskid]

Oh, so difficult! It's the same story with Uluru these days. There are so many objective angles on both sides of the argument that after working through all of them, we ended up not climbing it. I think it's a case where if you start to consider it like what you are doing now, you'll likely to be so torn at the end that you won't do it. I think it's a case of if you want to climb it, then don't think. If you think, you'll likely to decide against it.

Yeah , not too disagreeable on the face of it.
To make any sense of this one needs to get their head around Land Tenure.
Contrary to GPS. best not to think about it too much - the whole idea of land tenure/ownership by Homo Sapiens becomes the construct that it is .
Think about your intent. You can explore /climb/ look around a geological feature without harming another Human Being.
They can have whatever belief they want. You have no obligation to accept their belief about the way the geological features formed. We now have knowledge thru science .
The other thing I think that needs looking at is the phrase ' respect my beliefs' - what does that even mean, and my first response will be *&%$#! off - show cause dude.
You Know, pick a time frame - 10,000- 20,000,-30,000. We all have direct descendants that are that old. I agree with recognizing history.
There is no moral consideration to be made if you simply want to walk the earth to a peak, or a feature and harm no other .
.

[GPSGuided]

Geokid, that's the exact dilemma that I/we got stuck on. Taking away the religious (or some would call superstition) aspect out and/or set a different time frame, the whole argument reverses. Then again, the local tribe has suffered enough over the last 200 years and have now re-taken ownership of the land. The inconsistencies of their wish and the standing rules over climbing confused us greatly until it was explained that's just a part of their culture, one that we are unaccustomed to. In the end, it was just too hard a basket to try to rationalise strictly on logic. We too did the base walk and passed on the climb, accepting that we can't apply our social criteria on another, especially when we are guests on their land.

[Walking_addict]

Walking_addict DEWNR suggest only walking up to Tanderra Saddle.

Stepbystep if you could give me the contact details of the custodians that would be excellent. I'm going to try and get their permission before I go.

Turfa, while I feel the same about imposing my beliefs on to others I do think that other people's beliefs should still be respected. It's just like taking your shoes off when entering buddhist temples, etc, etc.

Hmmm, news to me. I had a commercial licence agreement with Nat parks for several years, taking groups into many of our sa NPs and CPs.
Never advised about that in the 6 or so times we did the St Mary peak walk.

Sent from my HTC1 using tapatalk

[geoskid]

Geokid, that's the exact dilemma that I/we got stuck on. Taking away the religious (or some would call superstition) aspect out and/or set a different time frame, the whole argument reverses. Then again, the local tribe has suffered enough over the last 200 years and have now re-taken ownership of the land. The inconsistencies of their wish and the standing rules over climbing confused us greatly until it was explained that's just a part of their culture, one that we are unaccustomed to. In the end, it was just too hard a basket to try to rationalise strictly on logic. We too did the base walk and passed on the climb, accepting that we can't apply our social criteria on another, especially when we are guests on their land.

Hey GPS . I think you got it right when you said it 's not an easy question.
Although it makes it easier for me to reject the notion of land ownership by homo sapiens , other than as a mechanism to avoid perpetual squabbles (frequently fatal) about where we are going to do what we do. This is all basic stuff concerning how we became what we are as a species.
Whats new? I Know you have something challenging - lets have it
.

[GPSGuided]

I don't want to lose the ownership over my home, so I accept and comply with the shorter time frame interpretation... So it goes.

[geoskid]

I don't want to lose the ownership over my home, so I accept and comply with the shorter time frame interpretation... So it goes.

I hear you. I want to understand, but it's *&%$#! hard to.
I might just go and give my boys a kiss.
Over.

[GPSGuided]

LOL!

[whitefang]

GPS you got it right this topic is complicated! It's been messing with my mind all day. I thought I had it worked out and then I realised I didn't and then I thought I did again... but I really don't. Maybe it's time I sleep.

[GPSGuided]

I feel your pain. In the end, we decided that any walk/climb/experience should impart positive memories. Climb Uluru with a lingering doubt and guilt conscience is not the reason why we travel and seek experiences. So thus we decided.