Horses and heritage

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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby peregrinator » Thu 08 Nov, 2018 5:17 pm

Not exactly a balanced report by the ABC, with three photographs tending to further promulgate the mythology and none of the shocking environmental damage that is caused.
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby trekker76 » Fri 09 Nov, 2018 10:10 am

This is a long running thread and I guess any opinion has been covered ad nauseum but I will throw my 2 cents in anyway. I'm not sure why folks get so upset over the willingness and method to kill a horse when we all sit in suburbs eating meat and using products tested on animals anyway. Everything we spray, wear, color, dye, medicate, even the chemical coatings on this laptop are tested on all the vulnerable membranes of a living mammal before it is destroyed and thrown in the trash 90 days later. But folks are squeamish about shooting out a biological pest. I'd even give the job to regular hunters. Up here we have feral horses, as well as world's worst populations of feral pigs and feral cats. Millions of native animals down the gurgler while there is sort of this hard left vs soft left argument in cities raging as to ways to control these populations. Poisoning is never great its a WMD and no one has the budget for continued government culling and relocation, at least the numbers here. Anyway that's my emotive rant, went down my uncles creek the other night and pigs have come through destroyed the delicate banks yet again and escaped into national park. I can trap them but more move in within a couple weeks, I don't have time to be an 'eternal pig relocator'.
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby north-north-west » Fri 09 Nov, 2018 10:30 am

Roast pork is delicious.
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby trekker76 » Fri 09 Nov, 2018 11:38 am

:lol: thanks northwest. Note to self don't inspect creek banks prior to checking out conservation debates. Well its good to dust off ones pet rants occasionally I guess. Carry on folks.
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby Xplora » Mon 12 Nov, 2018 4:43 am

I have been told this weekend there is information being prepared to go before the Vic Courts to have feral horses given heritage status. That would be interesting as it could in fact backfire. The proponents would have to prove the existing horses are descended from the original and I know many have been released in recent times on the Bogong High Plains. I would suspect similar things in other areas.
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby wander » Mon 12 Nov, 2018 9:50 am

I recollect the NSW draft management plan document process did look and discuss at the DNA of NSW horses and they was essentially very little evidence the current horses were related to which horses you want to consider to be the original brumbies this week. So it is likely to become quite a technical DNA debate as each side tries to prove it's point.

Not that it really matters where they came from, the horses are still causing untold damage (just like cats, foxes, pigs, deer and others) and are breeding at an uncontrolled rate.

If they were running around the suburbs of Melbourne or even farmland they would be cleaned up up pretty quick.
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby Xplora » Tue 13 Nov, 2018 5:55 am

The onus is on the person bringing the matter before the court to prove, on the balance of probability (civil court), the case in question. If horses are granted heritage status because of time in the area then other animals will soon be able to claim it. Could be then that PETA steps in and then all animals will be protected. Many court matters are technical and DNA is common place now. I am not sure if it will ever see a court room either but the bleeding hearts are trying everything since the government announced the new policy.
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby north-north-west » Tue 13 Nov, 2018 6:03 am

If brumbies are heritage and thus exempt from culling under any circumstances, logically all sheep, cattle, pigs, goats, chickens and other domestic livestock - feral or not - are heritage and thus cannot be killed.
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby potato » Tue 13 Nov, 2018 7:45 am

north-north-west wrote:If brumbies are heritage and thus exempt from culling under any circumstances, logically all sheep, cattle, pigs, goats, chickens and other domestic livestock - feral or not - are heritage and thus cannot be killed.


Don't forget include kangaroos as well.
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby peregrinator » Tue 13 Nov, 2018 7:43 pm

Xplora wrote:I have been told this weekend there is information being prepared to go before the Vic Courts to have feral horses given heritage status. That would be interesting as it could in fact backfire. The proponents would have to prove the existing horses are descended from the original and I know many have been released in recent times on the Bogong High Plains. I would suspect similar things in other areas.


But are feral (or any other) horses eligible for heritage status under the act?

See https://www.heritage.vic.gov.au/legislation/legislation-and-heritage-protections

Looking at this legislation, I’m wondering whether an animal can be defined as an "object" (see below). It certainly does not fit any other categories.

“The Victorian Heritage Act identifies and protects heritage places and objects that are of state - level cultural heritage significance to Victoria, including:
archaeological sites and artefacts
historic buildings, structures and precincts
gardens, trees and cemeteries
cultural landscapes
shipwrecks and artifacts
significant objects.”

(As an aside, could one argue that feral horses are actually endangering “cultural landscapes”? )

For definitions of "objects", see:

http://www.legislation.vic.gov.au/Domino/Web_Notes/LDMS/PubStatbook.nsf/f932b66241ecf1b7ca256e92000e23be/3297d78c7620b8ddca2580e4000b8857!OpenDocument:

“Preliminary Heritage Act 2017
No. 7 of 2017

3 Definitions

(1) In this Act—

object includes—
(a) any fixed or non-fixed object; and
(b) a collection of objects; and
(c) a shipwreck artefact; and
(d) an archaeological artefact.”

This is essentially defining an object as a subset of objects. Doesn’t help. But I think the legislators would more than likely have had the opinion that “objects” could not be regarded as “heritage” if they were living animals that had a certain life-span and then disappeared from their environment. Consider, for example, the first entry from the Cambridge Dictionary:

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/object

But I am not a lawyer, so my comments here could be utterly naive. Just wondering how best to tackle an absurd situation.
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby Xplora » Wed 14 Nov, 2018 5:36 am

I don't have any inside run on this but would be interested also in what sort of case can be put forward to give heritage status to an animal without it being legislated such as what happened in NSW. I am no lawyer either but have considerable experience reading and interpreting legislation. What you have found could be very relevant. For a living thing, which of course will at some stage die, the heritage could be argued in the continuance of the blood line. Long bow to draw regardless.
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby gayet » Wed 14 Nov, 2018 10:09 am

An article from ABC - Guy Fawkes National Park northern tablelands NSW.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-14/brumbies-at-the-mercy-of-drought-and-mismanagement/10495374

The wording at the start of the article is rather emotive, 2nd paragraph in particular...
Almost 40 brumbies have been found dead among one herd of heritage horses, prompting calls for intervention and better management of the animal's numbers in order to preserve the Australian icon.

The bold is my addition.

There is a passive trapping and rehoming effort in the park, but it has only managed to rehome 102 horses this year, while admitting 600 would be a better outcome. Doesn't provide much evidence of effectiveness of this method of control.
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby sambar358 » Thu 15 Nov, 2018 8:27 am

Gayet.....those images would certainly be confronting for some but in reality they are simply showing the results of a flawed policy by the NSW government on feral horse management in the Guy Fawkes NP and other NP's where feral horse numbers are outstripping the capability of the environment to sustain them. When the trapping/re-homing program is only removing 1/6th of the annual herd increase then clearly numbers will continue to grow until the horses start to starve to death while eating-out virtually anything that could provide some nourishment in the process.

If those that have opposed lethal methods of population control for feral horses are still comfortable with their stance given those images then they have some serious thinking to do about their view of the world. The NSW government and the NSW NPWS should step in here and do some significant number reduction for the sake of these horses and the environment and in doing so totally ignore the bleatings of the "protectors of the brumby" as clearly protection has done these horses no favors. It is time for hard and likely politically unpopular decisions to be made for the good of those that will survive the drought. But having said that.....I don't expect that there'll be any lethal feral horse reduction undertaken in Guy Fawkes NP as governments these days are more worried about maintaining their position at the trough and authorizing aerial culling or ground shooting of these animals is not likely to happen. There are no votes in shooting horses & slowly starving to death will be the fate of most of these horses unfortunately while those who should be on the front foot doing something about this turn a blind eye to the reality of it all. Cheers

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Last edited by sambar358 on Thu 15 Nov, 2018 11:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby gayet » Thu 15 Nov, 2018 9:02 am

Hi sambar

I wasn't supporting the emotive presentation, but cynical of the approach. I agree with your comments.

GIven the argument presented was for more effort in rehoming the horses from the worst affected areas, I felt they were shooting themselves in the foot when admitting they were unable to make any significant impact through this method. Wider publication of such images, with a discussion on alternate solutions beyond the feel good rehoming, to avoid death by starvation etc, may provide more balance in the argument.
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby sambar358 » Thu 15 Nov, 2018 12:14 pm

Gayet......the feral horse issue is a pretty emotive one I think and certainly their protection from lethal means of control in NSW was made on emotive rather than environmental grounds. Unfortunately now with the heritage protection afforded to the feral horses in NSW's NP's making decisions to aerial or ground shoot them to rapidly reduce their numbers and prevent more from starving to death is probably not possible. Re-homing is the softly-softly feel-good approach designed to keep the public happy and blissfully uninformed on what's really happening. Trapping will never reduce the feral horse numbers to a level where environmental damage is reduced to an acceptable level and this is clearly evidenced by only 120 re-homed over the past 12 months in Guy Fawkes NP when 600 was the target.

Guy Fawkes NP was in the news back in 2000 after a botched attempt to aerial cull the feral horses hit the mainstream news.....images of dead or wounded horses and orphaned foals caused a public outrage and a push to have this form of horse control banned....which it was by the government of the day with the then-Premier declaring that feral horses would never again be aerial culled in NSW. And essentially what is evident today in that Park as a result of this determination is a high population of feral horses that have probably eaten to Park out to a degree that now there is little or no palatable feed and they are starving to death in significant numbers. If the public were outraged over the Guy Fawkes 2000 aerial cull then they should be equally outraged at what NSW NPWS has let happen now in that Park. Images of walking skeletons slowly dying of starvation to me are far more obscene that those of feral horses cleanly killed with a bullet during a cull operation. Unfortunately it seems that those in government fail to see it that way. Cheers

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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby gayet » Thu 15 Nov, 2018 1:01 pm

sambar358 wrote:Unfortunately it seems that those in government fail to see it that way.


Or is it that those in government understand that the urban population (bulk of voters) would react to images of starving animals but would expect and accept, only a "softly-softly feel-good approach". Its not in their backyard after all, so a nice solution that sounds 'humane' and gentle, id far preferable to any that may include death. It's necessary that the slow, painful death outcome of the ineffective gentle approach is made known.

Perhaps its interesting to see how "The Man from Snowy River" is being interpreted....

In summary - The poem tells the story of a horseback pursuit to recapture the colt of a prizewinning racehorse that escaped from its paddock and is living with the brumbies.

So the domesticated colt was the prize, not the brumbies. The hero rescued the colt, while riding a pony -" a hardy mountain pony " - was it from brumby stock? It may be inferred but not stated, although the hero was held to be more important - "For both his horse and he are mountain bred.... nowhere yet such horsemen have I seen."

The respect was for the horseman and his ability with his horse. The brumbies were the problem, then as now, but respected none the less.
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby sambar358 » Thu 15 Nov, 2018 2:23 pm

I think that the poem and later the film "The Man from Snowy River" has got the wild horses of the mountains and by default the environment in which they live to where it is today. Many people and especially those from the major population centers associate "the brumby" with the poem and the film and visualize a wild stallion and his mares are foals galloping across an alpine button-grass plain as very much an Australian iconic vision to be preserved at all cost. Having these visions violated by a government that advocates the shooting of these iconic beast to reduce their excessive numbers and halt the environmental damage they are doing would be totally abhorrent to many as well as being potentially disastrous at the ballot box for the government of the day that approved it . The reality of it is clearly far different in some areas and more-so in times of severe drought.

If images such as were presented on the ABC report were to hit the front pages of the Sydney and Melbourne papers I wonder what the response would be ? Would we still be fully protecting that iconic vision or rather taking the realistic viewpoint that these horses are far too numerous, are damaging the environment and need to be managed using a method that reduces their numbers quickly and effectively. I would be very surprised if the majority would opt to let nature take it's course and condemn these animals to slow and lingering deaths by starvation.....if the trapping and re-homing strategy is not working then what ?

And this is not just happening in the Guy Fawkes NP either.....I read recently of a report of a significant number of dead feral horses being found along the Snowy river around the NSW/Vic border by a group of people rafting down the river. Apparently quite a lot of emaciated horses were also seen along the river by this party during their journey.....the tour leader expressed some concerns at this discovery as his paying clients were quite distressed by these confronting sights along the river. So a wide-spread issue and not solely limited to the Guy Fawkes NP in NSW. Cheers

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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby tastrax » Thu 15 Nov, 2018 3:00 pm

sambar358 wrote:And this is not just happening in the Guy Fawkes NP either.....I read recently of a report of a significant number of dead feral horses being found along the Snowy river around the NSW/Vic border by a group of people rafting down the river. Apparently quite a lot of emaciated horses were also seen along the river by this party during their journey.....the tour leader expressed some concerns at this discovery as his paying clients were quite distressed by these confronting sights along the river. So a wide-spread issue and not solely limited to the Guy Fawkes NP in NSW. Cheers

s358


Mustn't have natural selection, drought and other real world factors ruining a tourism experience... I personally reckon it would have been a great opportunity for a well educated guide to take up the challenge and confront people with what actually happens in the wild.
Cheers - Phil

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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby sambar358 » Thu 15 Nov, 2018 4:42 pm

No doubt part of the advertising hype for these sorts of eco-tours down the Snowy would have been about having close-up and personal encounters with the horses as they rafted along the river. Sounds like the reality was a whole lot different to that.....dead horses along the banks and in the river and other horses seen that were in poor condition and clearly starving. But yes I agree.....a good opportunity to show the clients the reality and sometimes cruel real world away from the glossy images usually portrayed of the wild horses of the mountains. Cheers

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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby davidf » Fri 16 Nov, 2018 7:58 am

At the end of the day the dollar is almighty. I reckon they chip a few horses and deer that have huge cash prizes on them and close the park for an international culling competition. Also ptizes fot biggest annd most. They do it successfully with redfin and carp and barra. The game hunter $ must be huge.
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby gayet » Mon 19 Nov, 2018 8:38 am

Next article

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-19/barmah-brumbies-dying-prompts-call-for-action/10493746

With a headline of 'Massive cruelty': Fury as 'dozens of brumbies starve' in Victorian national park

The solution is handfeeding and a demand that Parks etc do more for the protection and welfare of the animals.
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby crollsurf » Tue 20 Nov, 2018 9:03 am

A group called Reclaim Kosci have organised a spot of Tea and a Campiagn Launch at NSW Parliament House if anyone is interested
https://www.eventbrite.com.au/e/reclaim-kosci-campaign-launch-tickets-52037655027?aff=efbeventtix&fbclid=IwAR2ft-IQFPA1f5felQY-enj9tHDKMo9rFEKVaI_mlQ_Z-QL7PwAYoXjf26o

I have no connection with the group but thought some here would be interested. The campaign is led by the Invasive Species Council and supported by the National Parks Association of the ACT, National Parks Association of NSW, Colong Foundation for Wilderness and the Nature Conservation Council of NSW.
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby DavidB » Wed 06 Mar, 2019 2:28 pm

Interesting story on ABC https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-03-06/ ... tenews_nsw

Been to Blue Waterholes a few times and there are plenty of horses there (and the poop).
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby icefest » Wed 06 Mar, 2019 10:41 pm

Men wanted for hazardous journey. Low wages, bitter cold, long hours of complete darkness. Safe return doubtful.
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby Zapruda » Thu 07 Mar, 2019 6:37 am

DavidB wrote:Interesting story on ABC https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-03-06/ ... tenews_nsw

Been to Blue Waterholes a few times and there are plenty of horses there (and the poop).


Interesting.

Something more serious is bound to happen soon. They are pretty fearless and even more so in that area of the park. We had a fairly sleepless night a few weeks ago at Bill Jones hut because they were whining and stamping right outside our tent.
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby north-north-west » Thu 07 Mar, 2019 7:25 am

So, rather than remove the brumbies (one way or another), they're talking about closing the campground.
It's ludicrous that a bunch of feral animals have more rights than either the native animals, the ecosystems, or the human visitors.
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby Zapruda » Thu 07 Mar, 2019 7:34 am

north-north-west wrote:So, rather than remove the brumbies (one way or another), they're talking about closing the campground.
It's ludicrous that a bunch of feral animals have more rights than either the native animals, the ecosystems, or the human visitors.


But don’t you understand? The battle of Beersheba! Banjo! Jim Craig! Akubras!!!!!

Who really cares about the karst, sphagnum, freshwater or any of that other hippy nonsense.
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby johnrs » Thu 07 Mar, 2019 8:48 am

But Zapruda
Akubras are not made of horsehair!
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby Zapruda » Thu 07 Mar, 2019 8:54 am

johnrs wrote:But Zapruda
Akubras are not made of horsehair!
John


We'd sooner use quoll fur and emu feathers than harm those colts we will regret...
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby sambar358 » Thu 07 Mar, 2019 9:15 am

The NSW government recently announced a $9 million program to control deer in the state and part of this strategy is large-scale poisoning probably using 1080 baits. As many areas that contain deer in NSW are also within the feral horse range it'll be interesting to see (if this goes ahead) if NSW PWS 1080 poison these areas as there would be a strong chance of the feral horses taking the baits intended for the deer as they certainly won't be deer-specific......just herbivore specific. As the NSW Deputy Premier Balilaro is the self-proclaimed champion of the brumpy protection movement and also pushing hard the program for controlling deer numbers in the state it'll be interesting to see what areas are targeted for 1080 poisoning for deer......I'm thinking nowhere anywhere near the feral horse range !

I can understand the concerns of some of threats to their safety from feral horses too and in particular stallions with a mob of mares and foals. In early February I spent a week fishing for trout in the Kiandra area of the upper Eucumbene and one day had a large black stallion get rather grumpy at my intrusion into his patch and he false charged me quite a few times to close range, snorted, tore the ground up, reared up on his in legs a few times trying to move me out of the way of his mob. I've had this happen a few times in the Vic high country when I've been deer hunting but on this occasion I felt a tad under-gunned with just my #4 weigh fly rod and a few handy rocks ! But it was all bluff and bravado on the stallions part as it usually is....but pretty unnerving just the same & one day it's likely a cranky stallion will push it just that little bit further and someone will get hurt or worse ! Cheers

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