Horses and heritage

[taswegian]

I gather from that quote it's okay to do harm. Not significant harm!

What was there before horses? Is there any heritage in life before horses, or does heritage only come into existence with introduction of horses? Feral ones at that.

[michael_p]

On this evening's news the Deputy Premier (and member for MONARO) was flanked by someone from the Snowy Mountains Bush Users Group. SMBUG are on Facebook, if any Facebook users would like to check them out and maybe let them know what you think*.

* this means tell them what you think not go and harass them.

[jdeks]

I wouldnt bother with SMBUG:

https://www.facebook.com/SnowyMountainB ... /?ref=py_c

The comments on that page should give you an idea of the echo-chamber they've built for themselves. Vast majority are from conservative horse riding backgrounds and are well and truly ensconced in a very emotional stance on the issue and are staunchly and compulsively anti-science and anti-'greenie' .

Go straight to your local MP.

[Lophophaps]

Press release cited in article:
"The heritage management plan will specifically prohibit lethal culling of the brumby, aerial or otherwise, and will identify those areas in the park where brumbies can roam without causing significant environmental harm," Mr Barilaro said.
The first part is cruel, shoot but not to kill. The second part is fine with me as there are no places where feral horses can go.

"Wild brumbies have been roaming the Australian alps for almost 200 years and are part of the cultural fabric and folklore of the high country," Mr Barilaro said.
Was it that long? Kosciuszko was named in 1840.

Look at the dollars.
http://snowymountains.com.au/press-rele ... s-up-by-15
"The new TRA findings show that from 1 September to 31 December 2015, close to 100,000 additional visitors (744,000 in total up from 645,000) came to the Snowy Mountains region staying 2,470,000 nights spending $421 million."

Show the crappy wallows and manure and tourists will be put off. Show the income forgone. Then look at conservation and a myriad of reports. TRA has a lot of interesting information.

[potato]

https://theconversation.com/nsws-no-cul ... fate-96905

[wildwanderer]

What I don’t understand is why the horse lobby doesn’t see the merit in limited culling. Surely, they can see the damage and manure the estimated approx. 10,000+ horses in the park is causing. They are out there riding their own horses in the highlands so they see it... So why not compromise and support a reduction down to 2000 wild horses and keep them at that level (arbitrary number), still have the heritage and we would have reduced damage/manure.

If its due to the suffering caused to horses by being shot.. cry me a river.. people eat meat every day from animals that need to be killed to provide that meat. I bet a good proportion of the horse lobby raises cattle.

I suspect the other side of the fence also wouldn’t support a reduced number only a total cull.

That’s the problem with allot of issues. The various interest groups won’t compromise. its only absolutes.

[potato]

Some part of the problem might be that the messaging around what national parks exist for is lost. Tourism, heritage, recreation, ecological conservation - even here on this forum you see a diversity of views on the importance of these and the other values.

[DavidB]

Also need to email the NSW Leader of the Opposition requesting that the ALP opposes the "Brumbies Bill". The address is leader.opposition@parliament.nsw.gov.au

[sambar358]

The pro-brumby people have done a good job of pushing the "heritage" line of the feral horses in the KNP and of course conveniently disguised the damage the excessive numbers of horses are causing across a large area. Images of well-conditioned doe-eyed so-called brumbies running free across vast tussock landscapes abound but the close-ups of large areas of damaged ground, caved-in waterway banks, extensive travel trails and vast dung piles are never shown of course. Nor are the images of the usual scruffy, scrawny under-nourished true feral horses of the KNP published which may have damaged their case. So a bit of a con-job really but a predicable enough result.....large scale shooting of feral horses is bad for business especially if you are a member of the political party in government at the moment. And that's what this decision is all about.....MP's staying in power.....not the government of the day biting the bullet (pun intended) and making a hard decision that will certainly generate some heat....for the long term good.

We have been discussing the issue on one of the hunting forums that I'm pretty active on and so far all contributors to the thread have had similar opinions to those expressed here. Recently one of the forum members came across a small "horse exclusion plot" somewhere in the Vic ANP and took a few pics of the dramatic difference inside and outside the small trial enclosure. His comment was that there was quite a bit of frog croaking coming from the moist tussocks inside that plot but when he moved off to take a few wider shots all was quiet. All the heavy pugging up of the small creek was done by horses and there was no sambar deer sign evident in this area although they are present. If more pics like these below were offered by those supporting a heavy reduction of brumby numbers in the KNP and other areas maybe the outcome could have been different. And in Victoria the PV feral horse management strategies are really a mirror on the NSW Parks one without actually planning to legislate protection from any form of lethal culling by authorities. So both states have really bowed to what is really pressure from small groups with vested interests in maintaining the status-quo for in many cases their own personal gains. Smoke and mirrors once again wins over logic and facts. Cheers

s358

[crollsurf]

Those pictures show whats really happening, thanks sambar358.

From the four politicians I emailed I finally got a response. The following links from Hansard where provided, on the subject of renewable energy, Highway upgrade on the North Coast and the Governor General David Hurley visiting Camden Men's Shed.

EDIT:
So I emailed him back and he sent the correct links this time for anyone that is interested:
Here are the relevant permalinks to the discussions surrounding the Kosciuszko National Park Wild Horse Management Plan:
https://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/perma ... 322-102131
https://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/perma ... 322-102108
https://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/perma ... 322-102117

[johnrs]

Hi Folks
Its time to get moving on our destructive "Heritage" feral brumbys
Here is a petition from the Nature Conservation Council
https://www.nature.org.au/get-involved/ ... mountains/
Thanks
John

[jdeks]

Good links mate, thanks

The takeaway message from the debate transcript here seems to be:

-Barilo neither knows or actually gives a hoot about feral horses/brumbies and is scrambling to pander to any voter base he can to keep his seat.

-Most of the opposition neither knows or actually gives a hoot about feral horses/brumbies, and is scrambling to scupper any attempts Barilo makes to secure more voters.

So it all comes down to politics.

Am I reading it right in that the vote at the end was on amending the proposed bill, and it was defeated? Which seems to indicate the majority support the bill as written?

[johnrs]

Hi Folks
Its time to get moving on our destructive "Heritage" feral brumbys
Here is a petition from the Nature Conservation Council
https://www.nature.org.au/get-involved/ ... mountains/
Thanks
John

[wander]

Done

[kymboy]

Yep

[Lophophaps]

I've been involved in conservation for quite a while. Petitions are good, but it's far better to write a letter or email. Decision makers view pro forma submissions and petitions as not worth much unless there are a lot of signatures. The reason is simple. It's very easy to sign a petition or sign a pro forma submission. An individual email or letter takes longer to write and is much more representative of the person sending it, who cares enough to take the time to write about what concerns the writer.

When Mount Stirling was suggested as a downhill resort maybe 30 years ago there were some 600 submissions, including mine. I read them all, in the archives. The pro formas were rubbish. Totally useless. The petitions were not much better. The best were based on science and the heart. One I loved was two pages of A5 or so by hand from a girl aged 12 saying how much she valued Stirling. This passion is evidenced with many of the Falls Creek to Mount Hotham bushwalk submissions, which I am reading. In the last week I've contacted people and entities about the FHAC, with two key emails seeking advice, and a dozen or more to others. Write to politicians, public servants and NGOs.

My strong view is that the government needs to know that there is opposition, just like FHAC, where a lot of well written submissions analytically destroyed the plan. A large number of submissions were shorter and said "No" very clearly. Submissions supporting FHAC are invariably short and lacking good reasoning. Just like Stirling.

There's some links on this thread, who to contact.
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=17904
So what's stopping you?

[Hallu]

I'm afraid the issue is ignorance. People don't realise horses are destructive, they just see them as cute. They have the same issue in the US by the way, but the numbers are different. There are only 72 000 wild horses in the US, against Australia's one MILLION. Is it because they have more than 10 times the population in the US, so more people to manage horses ? Is it because Americans are less afraid of shooting animals to control their numbers ? I don't know. But Australia is definitely weak when it's time to just cull feral populations. Australia's native wildlife and plants are unique and fragile, who cares about feral horses ? Horses aren't gonna go extinct... Peter Cochran who's against culling says "The horses symbolise freedom and are a part of Australia’s cultural identity,". These are two different statements. If you want to see free horses go to Asia or Europe. They don't have their place in the bush. And it's not like domestic horses are gonna get shot... It's not an Australian problem though, when an animal is cute people are reluctant to do what's necessary. I was shocked in Canada to see that they don't control moose numbers even though they're destroying the forests in places like Cape Breton Island, transforming them into bogs by eating young tree shoots (no wolves left to make them move around any more)... Their policy is that no animal should be shot in a national park, even when they do damage...

[ricrunner]

I am all for the removal of the majority of the horses from KNP. But not all. Maybe leave 500 hundred thereeir. I know the damage caused by them is significant, but I also see the heritage value of them being there. If there is a change of government and they change this ruling that all the horse and deer as well have to go, I do not want them culled but removed and sold. They are excellent horse stock impervious to a lot of diseases and could quite easily be exported for use in countries that require good horse stock. Murdering horses does not sit with me, as a former soldier I have totally lost the need to kill and I wont kill another living thing. But as a former professional shooter as well, not all kills are clean. To see a horse in pain from a bad shot, tears at your heart strings.

[Hallu]

Well, if something is to be done, it's gonna be a compromise anyway between culling and capture, probably a combination of both. But I wouldn't leave any horses in the parc, it's a mistake. Parks should be sacred, they shouldn't harbor pests. I think we've talked about the issue of removing horses with either traps or tranquilizers and it was very expensive. NSW NPWS certainly doesn't have the budget for it. There needs to be a firm proposal, highlighting how fast the horse needs to be removed before irrepairable damage is done, if all the horses need to go, how many can be captured etc... Australia has made some great ballsy decisions in the past, like the Green party and the national parks in Tasmania, the gun control laws after Port Arthur (that should be an example for the US), the renaming of landmarks with their aboriginal name (again, it should be an example for the US)... surely they can recognise what needs to be done here, not just with horses, but with goats, camels, donkeys, cats etc...

[Xplora]

I am all for the removal of the majority of the horses from KNP. But not all. Maybe leave 500 hundred thereeir. I know the damage caused by them is significant, but I also see the heritage value of them being there. If there is a change of government and they change this ruling that all the horse and deer as well have to go, I do not want them culled but removed and sold. They are excellent horse stock impervious to a lot of diseases and could quite easily be exported for use in countries that require good horse stock. Murdering horses does not sit with me, as a former soldier I have totally lost the need to kill and I wont kill another living thing. But as a former professional shooter as well, not all kills are clean. To see a horse in pain from a bad shot, tears at your heart strings.

I have considerable empathy for those put in the position of killing anything and I cannot understand how anybody would get enjoyment from it. The personal things you have shared gives me great hope for mankind and I at least appreciate your service. I must however address a few matters.
We shoot for meat and pest eradication but we don't kill for fun. I must say my taking of any life still gives me an awkward feeling and one I did not feel when younger. Those who are not vegetarian will eat meat killed by another with little thought as to how it got to the supermarket and all love the meat we put on our table but few take up the offer to be involved in the messy process first hand. Any animal deserves a clean kill but that is not always the case and horses are no different to a fox or rabbit when it comes to that. The human connection with horses over centuries evokes a greater emotional response such as the one you have shared. Public land managers are now put in a position of culling, not murdering, a domestic animal which was not managed by its owner and allowed to escape (or worse, released) to an area it had no place being. Some people arguing vigorously for culling are very much detached from the actual consequence and your point should be well considered.
These horses are now very much inbred, worm infested and suffer from many congenital faults which are passed on to domestic horses when they are captured and bred. A locking stifle joint is one and it is not pretty to watch and quite uncomfortable to ride a horse downhill with the problem. They are not all good stock (in fact not many) so some people have been seeding mares into wild populations to increase the diversity in the gene pool. I would not say they are impervious to disease either. Most diseases are transmitted via contact with infected animals and diseases affecting horses would be less in the NP.
Watching horses starve to death is much worse than watching a horse in pain for a short time from a bad shot. It is likely to affect the shooter more though as there is a direct involvement in the suffering. We (the people and the government) have a responsibility though to control these horses and ensure they do not suffer because they are not suited to the environment they live in. We also have a responsibility to ensure they do not damage the environment for those animals who are natural to the area and have a right to be there. If we are to talk heritage then the native animals being displaced by habitat destruction will have to win. Instead, those who speak of heritage only consider the last 200 years. The people wanting to save the feral horse from a 'cruel' fate also want to continue 'brumby' running which is itself a very cruel pastime. I feel they argue more for the horse because it furthers their own agenda. People make money from these horses. They capture the young and sell them off with the heritage price tag. Personally, you could not give one to me and 3 of our 4 horses were free. If the brumby lovers were to engage in the practise (heritage) of their forefathers (pioneer settlers) then culling would be normal. The feral horse was considered a pest by most farmers and was killed. Not always by shooting. The management plan suggested capture and re-homing was the first option but nobody wants an old feral mare in their paddocks. They only want the young ones. Trucking these horses out is also very stressful and often not practical. Unfortunately it comes down to one of two solutions. Leave them all alone or shoot them. Trapping is an ineffective long term solution but short term perhaps they could trap horses and force the 'brumby' advocates to take them all away and look after them. That would sort out those who are serious pretty quick and I am sure there would be a quite a few shot or turned into pet food because the horses would be unmanageable and even dangerous.

Do we need another thread discussing all this? Perhaps further discussion could go over to the Horses and Heritage or both amalgamated.

[Lophophaps]

The threads were covering similar ground and have been merged.

[johnrs]

And folks
Here is the link to the footage that provided Sambars shots above from Cowombat flat
https://www.facebook.com/australianalps ... 588798837/
Look at the damage to the unprotected streambanks.

As Lophophaps remarks please write or email your local pollie.
Failing that here, once more is the link to the Nature Council petition
https://www.nature.org.au/get-involved/ ... mountains/

The damage around Tantangara is really awful
John

[Drew]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... e-brumbies

Well said First Dog.

[potato]

I'm pleased we can rely on the dog to tell it as it is.

Thanks for the link.

[tom_brennan]

As others have said, writing to your member is more effective (if more time-consuming) than signing a petition.

Also, if you can, write your own letter rather than copying a form letter off a website. Or at least change some sections. Feel free to plagiarise any bits of mine below. I just cobbled something together using points from various articles and sites.
--------------
Dear Ms Berejiklian,

As my local member, I am writing to you to urge you to vote against the Kosciuszko Wild Horse Heritage Bill 2018 (aka "Brumbies Bill").

There is no case for providing special protected status of any feral animal.

Feral horses have caused and are still causing significant damage to alpine areas in the Snowy Mountains and Kosciuszko National Park.

Feral horses cause severe erosion of mountain streams and swamps, and trample alpine plants. Horses also compete with native wildlife by eating the plants that native animals need to survive, particularly in winter when food is scarce.

Protection for feral horses puts at risk endangered populations of native animals, such as the critically endangered Southern and Northern Corroboree Frogs. Protection for a feral animal should not come at the expense of native flora and fauna.

The Kosciuszko National Park is a national heritage area. It deserves protection. Please vote to protect this special area by opposing the Kosciuszko Wild Horse Heritage Bill 2018.

Yours sincerely,

[LachlanB]

Is there still time to write letters to MPs, or has the Bill already been passed?

[johnrs]

Write and email Lachlan!
This is the beginning of the next round in the struggle
John

[Neo]

Damn you Banjo, damn you

[tom_brennan]

Is there still time to write letters to MPs, or has the Bill already been passed?

Write now! The bill will likely be introduced this week, so no time to wait.

[tom_brennan]

In sneaky news, possibly designed to be drowned out by the Brumbies Bill:

the Minister for the Environment has approved horse riding in four national parks – Kosciuszko, Deua, Monga, and Mummel Gulf – following a two-year comprehensive trial and monitoring, which showed horse riding caused minimal impacts where it occurred. Final arrangements should be ready by December 2018 when the formal consultation process and amended plans of management are complete.

What that quote (from Nationals Leader John Barilaro's website) does not say is that the horse riding is now permitted in Wilderness Areas, which has never before been the case.

This is a massive retrograde step for Wilderness in NSW.