Horses and heritage

Bushwalking topics that are not location specific.
Forum rules
The place for bushwalking topics that are not location specific.

Re: Horses and heritage

Postby Lophophaps » Mon 30 Jan, 2017 7:45 am

Xplora wrote:There is also little point arguing with these people as they will not see logic.


That says it all. +1 Feral horse are part of our bush history and are pretty to watch. The damage they cause is anything but pretty. More Parks Victoria funding would be nice.
User avatar
Lophophaps
Auctorita modica
Auctorita modica
 
Posts: 3378
Joined: Wed 09 Nov, 2011 9:45 am
Region: Victoria
Gender: Male

Re: Horses and heritage

Postby potato » Fri 13 Oct, 2017 1:39 pm

I just saw this gem in The Conversation. It's unfortunate that no one is writing so romantically about the Antechinus, pygmy possums, coroborree frogs or any other native species in decline.

https://theconversation.com/friday-essa ... rses-84198
potato
Athrotaxis cupressoides
Athrotaxis cupressoides
 
Posts: 330
Joined: Thu 28 Jan, 2016 1:06 pm
Region: Tasmania
Gender: Male

Re: Horses and heritage

Postby north-north-west » Sat 14 Oct, 2017 8:58 am

...and almost no peer-reviewed research on horse impacts in the Snowy Mountains, despite decades of argument that they cause environmental degradation.

This is nothing but *&^%$#!. There have been ongoing studies into brumby impact in the KNP and ANP for decades, plus all the studies going back to early last century of impacts of large, hooved grazing animals (mainly cattle, but those studies are also highly relevant).
We know for a fact that native species of flora and fauna are negatively affected by the presence and actions of these ferals. All the anthropomorphic and emotional garbage trotted out by the 'heritage' crowd cannot change that.
"Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens."
User avatar
north-north-west
Lagarostrobos franklinii
Lagarostrobos franklinii
 
Posts: 15069
Joined: Thu 14 May, 2009 7:36 pm
Location: The Asylum
ASSOCIATED ORGANISATIONS: Social Misfits Anonymous
Region: Tasmania

Re: Horses and heritage

Postby Xplora » Sun 15 Oct, 2017 6:04 am

The bloke who wrote this ridiculous article is a professor of Human Geography and really has no credence when it comes to anything environmental. There is not a great deal of peer review study on the effects of feral horses but there has been study and ongoing experiments such as the one at Cowombat flat. His argument against helicopter shooting was that the skills required to do this is not likely to be found in the local community. Stupid does not know they bring in pro shooters with the skills. He tries to attach some cultural significance with aborigines because they rode horses doing stock work and aborigines like animals. He relates Banjo's poem as if it were in support but in fact it highlights a problem of the time with the feral mobs stealing other horses. Early settlers used to shoot them because of the damage they did. Clearly the 'pro' group have found a supporter but again with the same old arguments although he is educated and was a ranger. Perhaps he should write about the cultural significance of feral cats. In the end it came down to - if trout can stay then so can horses.
Xplora
Athrotaxis selaginoides
Athrotaxis selaginoides
 
Posts: 1572
Joined: Sat 01 Aug, 2015 7:24 am
Region: Victoria
Gender: Male

Re: Horses and heritage

Postby potato » Mon 16 Oct, 2017 10:02 am

I was gobsmacked when I first read the article. The Associate Professor clearly has a soft-spot for horses and seems to think his opinion is rigorous research.
potato
Athrotaxis cupressoides
Athrotaxis cupressoides
 
Posts: 330
Joined: Thu 28 Jan, 2016 1:06 pm
Region: Tasmania
Gender: Male

Re: Horses and heritage

Postby johnrs » Mon 16 Oct, 2017 5:22 pm

Folks
Its pretty terrible in the Northern Snowies now.
Currango ck flows brown sometimes with a foam on it,
there are horse crossings every 30m along the broken down banks,
horseprints in every sqm and around the causeway mud, dung and stench.
I counted about 60 brumbies by the culvert in less than an hour in June.
John
johnrs
Phyllocladus aspleniifolius
Phyllocladus aspleniifolius
 
Posts: 614
Joined: Mon 09 Aug, 2010 6:09 pm
Region: New South Wales

Re: Horses and heritage

Postby potato » Thu 01 Feb, 2018 12:47 pm

This isn't the first time this has happened...

https://www.facebook.com/australianalps ... 6472233648
potato
Athrotaxis cupressoides
Athrotaxis cupressoides
 
Posts: 330
Joined: Thu 28 Jan, 2016 1:06 pm
Region: Tasmania
Gender: Male

Re: Horses and heritage

Postby Zapruda » Thu 01 Feb, 2018 1:26 pm

This is utterly deplorable. The absolute disregard some people have for our environment is shocking. Especially an environment as fragile as our high country.

Oh, if feral horses are allowed out there then why aren't our horses? RIDICULOUS!

If the government took a stance and acted on the feral horse issue and informed the public of the damage being done maybe people wouldn't feel as compelled to take domestic animals into a national park.

I get so sad every time I am walking in Northern Kosciuszko because of the damage done by these animals. If only people got off their couches and came and saw it for themselves. The Tantangara Plain is teeming with them at the moment. You cant find a spot to pitch your tent where there isn't horse *&%$#!.

The ACT gov has done a fantastic job of keeping feral horses out of Namadgi and then you get bozos like this that think they are above the law...Argh
Last edited by Zapruda on Mon 05 Feb, 2018 10:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Zapruda
Athrotaxis selaginoides
Athrotaxis selaginoides
 
Posts: 1690
Joined: Thu 07 Apr, 2016 10:46 am
Region: Australian Capital Territory
Gender: Male

Re: Horses and heritage

Postby potato » Mon 05 Feb, 2018 10:33 am

For those who are interested, here are some recent research finding on the impact of horses in alpine environments:

https://engage.vic.gov.au/application/f ... a_2018.pdf
potato
Athrotaxis cupressoides
Athrotaxis cupressoides
 
Posts: 330
Joined: Thu 28 Jan, 2016 1:06 pm
Region: Tasmania
Gender: Male

Re: Horses and heritage

Postby gayet » Thu 03 May, 2018 2:50 pm

An article on ABC news ;
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-05-03/nsw-scientists-propose-brumby-threat-environment/9722800

Proposal to list brumbies as a threat to the environment.
gayet
Phyllocladus aspleniifolius
Phyllocladus aspleniifolius
 
Posts: 960
Joined: Sat 12 Feb, 2011 8:01 pm
Location: Wallan
Region: Victoria
Gender: Female

Re: Horses and heritage

Postby potato » Thu 03 May, 2018 3:05 pm

We can only hope that some sense will come of this - the feral horses need to go.
potato
Athrotaxis cupressoides
Athrotaxis cupressoides
 
Posts: 330
Joined: Thu 28 Jan, 2016 1:06 pm
Region: Tasmania
Gender: Male

Re: Horses and heritage

Postby Xplora » Fri 04 May, 2018 6:28 am

Having them listed as a threatening process will make some management strategies easier to enact but the bleeding hearts would be aware of that so it is not a done deal. At least they would have to argue against it on environmental grounds instead of emotional.
Xplora
Athrotaxis selaginoides
Athrotaxis selaginoides
 
Posts: 1572
Joined: Sat 01 Aug, 2015 7:24 am
Region: Victoria
Gender: Male

Re: Horses and heritage

Postby north-north-west » Fri 04 May, 2018 10:29 am

Xplora wrote:At least they would have to argue against it on environmental grounds instead of emotional.


At least we'll get a bit of entertainment watching the twists and turns, the distortions and outright lies necessary to try to do that.
"Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens."
User avatar
north-north-west
Lagarostrobos franklinii
Lagarostrobos franklinii
 
Posts: 15069
Joined: Thu 14 May, 2009 7:36 pm
Location: The Asylum
ASSOCIATED ORGANISATIONS: Social Misfits Anonymous
Region: Tasmania

Re: Horses and heritage

Postby crollsurf » Fri 04 May, 2018 4:55 pm

I think the horses, like the huts, are part of the heritage of the KNP. I think 50 horses would be a good number, maybe 100 max.
At the moment, there are so many horses around the Cooleman Plains that you could stand anywhere and be less than 5 metres from horse manue. The situation ATM is at crisis point really.
User avatar
crollsurf
Lagarostrobos franklinii
Lagarostrobos franklinii
 
Posts: 2216
Joined: Tue 07 Mar, 2017 10:07 am
Location: Sydney
Region: New South Wales
Gender: Male

Re: Horses and heritage

Postby Xplora » Sat 05 May, 2018 6:13 am

crollsurf wrote:I think the horses, like the huts, are part of the heritage of the KNP.


This argument could also apply to feral cats, dogs and pigs. All domestic animals which have been released or escaped into the wild. The pioneer farmers used to kill the feral horses because of the trouble they caused and the damage they did but their concerns were not the environment. We should then follow the heritage of the pioneer farmers. Romantic notions, novels and poems seem to have changed some public opinion. You will need to explain what heritage these pest animals have in KNP or anywhere in the wild. If we are to rely on poetry then the Man from Snowy River talks about the problem of feral horses stealing other domestic horses.
Xplora
Athrotaxis selaginoides
Athrotaxis selaginoides
 
Posts: 1572
Joined: Sat 01 Aug, 2015 7:24 am
Region: Victoria
Gender: Male

Re: Horses and heritage

Postby Warin » Sat 05 May, 2018 6:57 am

Xplora wrote:
crollsurf wrote:I think the horses, like the huts, are part of the heritage of the KNP.


This argument could also apply to feral cats, dogs and pigs.


And carp, rabbits, foxes. And lantana, privet... etc.
User avatar
Warin
Athrotaxis selaginoides
Athrotaxis selaginoides
 
Posts: 1408
Joined: Sat 11 Nov, 2017 8:02 am
Region: New South Wales

Re: Horses and heritage

Postby slparker » Sat 05 May, 2018 10:32 am

crollsurf wrote:I think the horses, like the huts, are part of the heritage of the KNP. I think 50 horses would be a good number, maybe 100 max.
At the moment, there are so many horses around the Cooleman Plains that you could stand anywhere and be less than 5 metres from horse manue. The situation ATM is at crisis point really.

the NP in KNP stands for National Park not National Paddock. Feral animals do not belong in wilderness areas, whatever their provenance. Unless they can be contained somewhere behind a fence, like dubbo zoo, feral horses have no place in our national parks.

If people want to get misty-eyed about our stock driving past (and who doesn't love a bit of whip-cracking', oilskin wearing action) perhaps we could have a ceremonial once a year stock drive through the KNP as a concession to history and in return for the culling of feral horses.
slparker
Athrotaxis selaginoides
Athrotaxis selaginoides
 
Posts: 1404
Joined: Fri 25 Apr, 2008 10:59 pm

Re: Horses and heritage

Postby michael_p » Sat 05 May, 2018 10:59 am

crollsurf wrote:...horse manue. The situation ATM is at crisis point really.

I recently walked out to Cascades Hut and was shocked at the great mounds of manure that had been deposited on the track. I had no idea it was this bad. This galvanised my opinion that the Brumbies have got to go.

Michael.
One foot in front of the other.
User avatar
michael_p
Athrotaxis selaginoides
Athrotaxis selaginoides
 
Posts: 1376
Joined: Sun 15 Nov, 2009 6:58 pm
Location: Macarthur Region of Sydney.
Region: New South Wales
Gender: Male

Re: Horses and heritage

Postby davidf » Sat 05 May, 2018 11:22 am

Brumpy is a bad term. Feral pest is better and inclusive. Nearly all feral pests are cute. Puppies, kittens, bamboo, ponies, piglets, fluffy little foxes. Does not mean on the greater scale they massively change the environment. NB I do realise humans stuff up everything more than anything else, it is out fault collectively these animals are where they are and we should tidy up the mess.
davidf
Athrotaxis cupressoides
Athrotaxis cupressoides
 
Posts: 283
Joined: Thu 24 Jan, 2013 12:17 pm
Region: New South Wales

Re: Horses and heritage

Postby oldpiscator » Sat 05 May, 2018 11:37 am

Warin wrote:
Xplora wrote:
crollsurf wrote:I think the horses, like the huts, are part of the heritage of the KNP.


This argument could also apply to feral cats, dogs and pigs.


And carp, rabbits, foxes. And lantana, privet... etc.

Please dont forget the biggest feral pest who collectively causes more environmental problems than all the others put together - HUMANS!
oldpiscator
Athrotaxis cupressoides
Athrotaxis cupressoides
 
Posts: 148
Joined: Mon 09 Jan, 2012 11:22 am
Location: Lara
Region: Victoria
Gender: Male

Re: Horses and heritage

Postby crollsurf » Sat 05 May, 2018 3:32 pm

After driving along tarmac roads in there 1 and half tonne vehicles, as they sit on manicured grass and start their fire 200klm from home and half a world away from there ancestral lands. Taking their plastic wrapped food from their plastic backpacks, a hard days walking past powerlines, dams and firetrails, old mining works as jetliners fly overhead. As they check there phone, hoping there is tower nearby, It's time to contemplate and come to the realisation:

"It's the Horses that are the problem..."
User avatar
crollsurf
Lagarostrobos franklinii
Lagarostrobos franklinii
 
Posts: 2216
Joined: Tue 07 Mar, 2017 10:07 am
Location: Sydney
Region: New South Wales
Gender: Male

Re: Horses and heritage

Postby Mark F » Sat 05 May, 2018 4:13 pm

crollsurf wrote:After driving along tarmac roads in there 1 and half tonne vehicles, as they sit on manicured grass and start their fire 200klm from home and half a world away from there ancestral lands. Taking their plastic wrapped food from their plastic backpacks, a hard days walking past powerlines, dams and firetrails, old mining works as jetliners fly overhead. As they check there phone, hoping there is tower nearby, It's time to contemplate and come to the realisation:

"It's the Horses that are the problem..."

Are you suggesting that smaller problems should be ignored until larger problems are addressed? A great way to do nothing about anything.

If people want brumbies then they should buy some land and use that to graze them. National Parks are not the place for feral species especially ones that damage quite fragile environments.
"Perfection is attained not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing more to remove".
User avatar
Mark F
Lagarostrobos franklinii
Lagarostrobos franklinii
 
Posts: 2332
Joined: Mon 19 Sep, 2011 8:14 pm
Region: Australian Capital Territory
Gender: Male

Re: Horses and heritage

Postby Xplora » Sun 06 May, 2018 5:48 am

Warin wrote:And carp, rabbits, foxes. And lantana, privet... etc.


These along with deer are also a problem but I did not include them as they were not domestic animals which had escaped or had been released.

crollsurf wrote:After driving along tarmac roads in there 1 and half tonne vehicles, as they sit on manicured grass and start their fire 200klm from home and half a world away from there ancestral lands. Taking their plastic wrapped food from their plastic backpacks, a hard days walking past powerlines, dams and firetrails, old mining works as jetliners fly overhead. As they check there phone, hoping there is tower nearby, It's time to contemplate and come to the realisation:

"It's the Horses that are the problem..."


Of course humans have done more damage and the feral human argument always pops up. You still need to argue why horses have any more right to be in the park than dogs, cats and pigs. All animals released or escaped and entitled to the same heritage factor applied to horses. In reality there is no way they can get rid of all the horses in KNP so you will get more than a 100 but a level of control has been suggested. On the other hand, BHP horses will be totally eradicated or at least that is the aim. We are always open to suggestions about controlling feral humans but if the bleeding hearts won't let you shoot a horse then what chance do we have controlling humans. All we can do is consider our own impact and adjust accordingly.
Xplora
Athrotaxis selaginoides
Athrotaxis selaginoides
 
Posts: 1572
Joined: Sat 01 Aug, 2015 7:24 am
Region: Victoria
Gender: Male

Re: Horses and heritage

Postby north-north-west » Mon 07 May, 2018 10:18 am

Xplora wrote:. We are always open to suggestions about controlling feral humans but if the bleeding hearts won't let you shoot a horse then what chance do we have controlling humans.


First we shoot the feral humans, then the bleeding hearts, and then we can get started on the horses.

Waiting for the outrage that comment is going to cause . . .
"Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens."
User avatar
north-north-west
Lagarostrobos franklinii
Lagarostrobos franklinii
 
Posts: 15069
Joined: Thu 14 May, 2009 7:36 pm
Location: The Asylum
ASSOCIATED ORGANISATIONS: Social Misfits Anonymous
Region: Tasmania

Re: Horses and heritage

Postby Zapruda » Mon 07 May, 2018 11:48 am

I spend a lot of time in northern Kosciuszko and the damage is very sobering. There is nowhere to pitch your tent that isn't covered in horse droppings. All the streams and creeks have been eroded at their banks. The moss has been trampled and is dead.
Last September I witnessed a feral horse dying on the Boggy Plain. It looked like it had broken its leg and was unable to move. Its skeleton is still there. The area is just not suitable for these animals with the all tussock. After every winter I notice how thin and lethargic they are.

One year I saw a team of them that was in excess of 30 horses. That's 30 tonnes of hoof churning up our immensely fragile alpine environment.

There is no question that they need to go. I implore anyone who thinks that the horses should stay, to go and spend a couple days around Tantangara and then come back here and argue for them. I think it would be impossible.

Vid of the horse - https://imgur.com/a/K1mbb2A

The horse 2 weeks later
Attachments
horse2.jpg
User avatar
Zapruda
Athrotaxis selaginoides
Athrotaxis selaginoides
 
Posts: 1690
Joined: Thu 07 Apr, 2016 10:46 am
Region: Australian Capital Territory
Gender: Male

Re: Horses and heritage

Postby potato » Mon 07 May, 2018 12:26 pm

north-north-west wrote:
Xplora wrote:. We are always open to suggestions about controlling feral humans but if the bleeding hearts won't let you shoot a horse then what chance do we have controlling humans.


First we shoot the feral humans, then the bleeding hearts, and then we can get started on the horses.

Waiting for the outrage that comment is going to cause . . .


Outrage!? I think its a great idea!
potato
Athrotaxis cupressoides
Athrotaxis cupressoides
 
Posts: 330
Joined: Thu 28 Jan, 2016 1:06 pm
Region: Tasmania
Gender: Male

Re: Horses and heritage

Postby jdeks » Sun 20 May, 2018 8:57 am

jdeks
Athrotaxis cupressoides
Athrotaxis cupressoides
 
Posts: 349
Joined: Sat 15 Mar, 2014 5:05 pm
Region: Australia

Re: Horses and heritage

Postby crollsurf » Sun 20 May, 2018 12:04 pm

That is Madness. I just penned a letter to the NSW Environment Minister, the Premier and my local member politely expressing my objections and gave the Cooleman Plain as an example of how desperate the situation is.

Any one interested here are links to contact the Environment Minister and the Premier
The Hon. Gladys Berejiklianhttps://www.nsw.gov.au/contact-us/contact-the-premier/
The Hon. Gabrielle UPTONhttps://www.nsw.gov.au/your-government/ministers/minister-for-the-environment-minister-for-local-government-and-minister-for-heritage/

Anyone else I should be sending my objections to?
User avatar
crollsurf
Lagarostrobos franklinii
Lagarostrobos franklinii
 
Posts: 2216
Joined: Tue 07 Mar, 2017 10:07 am
Location: Sydney
Region: New South Wales
Gender: Male

Re: Horses and heritage

Postby michael_p » Sun 20 May, 2018 12:22 pm

Legislation proposed by the member for Monaro...MONARO, now it makes sense. Another desperate move by a government hanging by a thread.

Contact the Deputy Premier here: https://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/membe ... aspx?pk=85
One foot in front of the other.
User avatar
michael_p
Athrotaxis selaginoides
Athrotaxis selaginoides
 
Posts: 1376
Joined: Sun 15 Nov, 2009 6:58 pm
Location: Macarthur Region of Sydney.
Region: New South Wales
Gender: Male

Re: Horses and heritage

Postby LachlanB » Sun 20 May, 2018 4:28 pm

"The heritage management plan (...) will identify those areas in the park where brumbies can roam without causing significant environmental harm," Mr Barilaro said.

So, that's none of the park, isn't it Mr Barilaro?
LachlanB
Athrotaxis cupressoides
Athrotaxis cupressoides
 
Posts: 381
Joined: Mon 21 Apr, 2014 5:07 pm
Region: New South Wales
Gender: Male

PreviousNext

Return to Bushwalking Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 25 guests