General Announcement...

[flyfisher]

Robbo, glad to hear that all people have been accounted for and are safe and well
There must be a lot of frustration for you in what happened but hopefully it doesnt deter you from the good work.
FF

[corvus]

Thanks heaps for your update Robbo. Don't feel compelled to explain yourself here. I'm sure everyone is curious to hear all about it, but pressure is probably the last thing you need right now. It's great that everyone came out of it OK, in the end, and if it means changes for the better for the program, then I guess that is at least one good thing to come out of it.

It sounds like you're taking it very seriously (of course), and I hope that you're able to get some peace after what I guess must have been some substantial stress.

SoaB,
What would your reply have been if the child had perished ,this was a major stuff up and I believe Tony has acknowledged it as such but please dont start to gently massage a real lapse in management IMHO there is no excuse and the only good thing to result from this is that no one died .
All so nice to take things seriously in hind site, IT SHOULD have been done in situ ,how hard is it to count your kids!! and I believe that the leader needs to do some re training in basic BW techniques like adult in front and behind etc .
Sorry I cannot say any more I am so angry.
corvus

[Earthling]

Thanks for replying Tony and giving us a headsup. So far I havent been the victim of an overzealous media, however, chatting to herpetologists that have been bitten by venomous snakes and then seeing the resulting media vomit about the incident is always a bewildering sight.
It sounds like you have taken this matter very seriously and good on you. Remember though, the more things we do in life, the more chance we have of something going wrong. We could sit on the couch in front of a box all safe and cosy.....but thats not a life.
A mistake is a lesson not learned and from what youve said your learning.
If you feel theres something we could all learn from the trip, please post away when you have worked through it.

Goodluck

[Earthling]

SoaB,
What would your reply have been if the child had perished ,this was a major stuff up and I believe Tony has acknowledged it as such but please dont start to gently massage a real lapse in management IMHO there is no excuse and the only good thing to result from this is that no one died .
All so nice to take things seriously in hind site, IT SHOULD have been done in situ ,how hard is it to count your kids!! and I believe that the leader needs to do some re training in basic BW techniques like adult in front and behind etc .
Sorry I cannot say any more I am so angry.
corvus

The disease of men is this: that they neglect their own fields and go to weed the fields of others.
Mencius

[corvus]

The disease of men is this: that they neglect their own fields and go to weed the fields of others.
Mencius

Can you please explain your biblical quotation in real speak.
c

[Nuts]

..

[corvus]

Nuts,
The kid was lost so the head count happened too late.
c

[corvus]

And did they lose the use of their fingers 9 minus 3 equals oh poo... where are they!!! unpteen minus 1 = we are in serious poo... , please dont try to hose this down it was a major deleriction of duty so " Nuts " et all give me an other explination.
corvus

[Nuts]

..

[lyndoor]

Guys, nothing can be achieved by slinging backwards & forwards over this incident.

Thank goodness no precious lives were lost.

Let's just realise the inherent dangers of going into the Tassie wilderness, her fickleness & beauty, the constant vigilance that must be maintain whether any of us are experienced or not, still encourage people to venture out, learn from any history or events that occur and offer wisdom and advice so we can all enjoy it.

[Earthling]

The disease of men is this: that they neglect their own fields and go to weed the fields of others.
Mencius

Can you please explain your biblical quotation in real speak.
c

Mencius is a Chinese Philosopher, not an individual from the Christian Bible....

The quote is saying in plain speech that: A common fault of humans is that we go around condeming other humans actions and fail to look at our own actions.

To further assist you and put it in speech that was pointing at you (whilst coming from a non-judgemental view): You were condemning a man for his actions on very limited knowledge of the matter; it seems mostly from your own personal moral judgement. Who made you God? You Corvus I am sure have faults as well. I dont know you apart from some writings on a computer screen, however you often seem to come across in an un-helpfull way, in a condescending view towards others. These are observations that are not healthy towards others...or yourself.
Who knows what your like in 'the flesh'.
What about those thoughts in your head about actions you have done in the past that you regret? Those pestering dark thoughts? Perhaps if you were to look at them fully, maybe you would realise that you have also made negative outcome judgements yourself and are in fact no better then any of us, including the individual you are activly condemning.
Before you condemn others, look into your self and cleanse yourself; as if you cant even cleanse yourself, how the heck are you going to cleanse others?

[dee_legg]

Go Earthling!

[Tony]

I would like to commend Robbo for being willing to take a group of school kids bushwalking and I would like to give him and the other teachers involved my 100% support, it takes a very special person to be be willing to take large groups of kids bushwalking as it takes a special person to become a school teacher in the first place. Teacher bashing is a national sport here in Australia, they cop it from all sides (politician, parents, students and the public) and are not paid what they are worth in society, it is about time that we support our teachers for the great work that they do. (confession: I am not a teacher but I am married to one).

I certainly would not be prepared to take a group of school kid bushwalking especially a group where a number of them do not want to be there. things do go wrong even for the most experienced, we read about it all the time. There is a saying "that the only people that do not make mistakes, are people who do not do anything"

I would like to thank Earthling for his excellent post above.

I would like to finish off with quote from the Christian bible, which has been attributed to Jesus "Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged! and Let He Who is Without Sin Cast the First Stone "
(Confession 2: I am a committed atheist but I often think about this saying)

Tony

[Singe]

Teacher bashing is a national sport here in Australia, they cop it from all sides (politician, parents, students and the public) and are not paid what they are worth in society, it is about time that we support our teachers for the great work that they do. (confession: I am not a teacher but I am married to one).

Yeah, but then they get all those extra holidays...

(Just kidding - thought this thread could use an injection of levity)

[MrCAMEL]

I would like to finish off with quote from the Christian bible, which has been attributed to {incarnate deity} "Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged! and Let He Who is Without Sin Cast the First Stone "
(Confession 2: I am a committed atheist but I often think about this saying)

Tony

I thought Brian said that?

BRIAN: Don't you, eh, pass judgment on other people, or you might get judged yourself.

COLIN: What?

BRIAN: I said, 'Don't pass judgment on other people, or else you might get judged, too.'

COLIN: Who, me?

BRIAN: Yes.

COLIN: Oh. Ooh. Thank you very much.

BRIAN: Well, not just you. All of you.

DENNIS: That's a nice gourd.

BRIAN: What?

DENNIS: How much do you want for the gourd?

BRIAN: I don't. You can have it.

[Son of a Beach]

Thanks heaps for your update Robbo. Don't feel compelled to explain yourself here. I'm sure everyone is curious to hear all about it, but pressure is probably the last thing you need right now. It's great that everyone came out of it OK, in the end, and if it means changes for the better for the program, then I guess that is at least one good thing to come out of it.

It sounds like you're taking it very seriously (of course), and I hope that you're able to get some peace after what I guess must have been some substantial stress.

SoaB,
What would your reply have been if the child had perished ,this was a major stuff up and I believe Tony has acknowledged it as such but please dont start to gently massage a real lapse in management IMHO there is no excuse and the only good thing to result from this is that no one died .
All so nice to take things seriously in hind site, IT SHOULD have been done in situ ,how hard is it to count your kids!! and I believe that the leader needs to do some re training in basic BW techniques like adult in front and behind etc .
Sorry I cannot say any more I am so angry.
corvus

It is my belief that we cannot change what has occurred, and that there's not much we can do here to help Robbo or anyone else at this point, beyond the lessons already learned since the incidents, apart from offering support. If somebody had died, I would have the same beliefs, and I think that the people involved would need support even more so (whether they made mistakes that led to the incidents or not).

I agree that people who make mistakes (especially ones which put others in danger) should be corrected, and even chastised, however, I also think that people who are suffering deserve compassion. In this case, I would guess that Robbo is suffering significant stress, and that he's chastising and correcting himself enough such that he doesn't really need it from anyone else. Sometimes people who make mistakes are also victims. Similarly, I feel very sorry for the young lady who's car t-boned a bloke I know a few weeks ago when he was on his motorbike (yes, he's going to be fine).

In this case, I don't even know for sure who was to blame, although Robbo has indicated that he feels somewhat responsible.

[corvus]

Mencius is a Chinese Philosopher, not an individual from the Christian Bible....

The quote is saying in plain speech that: A common fault of humans is that we go around condeming other humans actions and fail to look at our own actions.

To further assist you and put it in speech that was pointing at you (whilst coming from a non-judgemental view): You were condemning a man for his actions on very limited knowledge of the matter; it seems mostly from your own personal moral judgement. Who made you God? You Corvus I am sure have faults as well. I dont know you apart from some writings on a computer screen, however you often seem to come across in an un-helpfull way, in a condescending view towards others. These are observations that are not healthy towards others...or yourself.
Who knows what your like in 'the flesh'.
What about those thoughts in your head about actions you have done in the past that you regret? Those pestering dark thoughts? Perhaps if you were to look at them fully, maybe you would realise that you have also made negative outcome judgements yourself and are in fact no better then any of us, including the individual you are activly condemning.
Before you condemn others, look into your self and cleanse yourself; as if you cant even cleanse yourself, how the heck are you going to cleanse others?

Earthling thank you for clearing that up I much prefer to have real speak rather than trying to guess what people mean with quotations.
I am by no means perfect and in my long lifetime have made many mistakes and no doubt will make more however this will not stop me speaking out nor being critical if I feel it is warranted and if that offends some so be it.
c

[loric]

In principle, have to agree with corvus.

I don't think the issue is throwing stones in glass houses, teacher's pay etc etc.

A hike leader has a duty of care to ensure the safety of a group.
That the group are children reinforces this requirement.

An emergency from getting lost in the fog is very different to one like a snake bite, or a broken leg in a fall.

A simple risk analysis prior to the hike should indicate what level of due diligence is required. Consideration should be given to contingency planning, emergency response etc.
Now i'm not saying that all of this wasn't done, but the fact remains that on this particular trip a number of children were subjected to potentially unecessary risk.

I'm all for taking children into the bush - but you have to assess their abilities prior. If they aren't experienced, perhaps a more temperate climate walk is appropriate? Getting lost on say the southern circuit of Wilson's Prom in summer is very different to tas when it's cold.

[Nuts]

..

[corvus]

Nuts ,life would be so boring if we all agreed and dont think that I dont have sympathy for Tony and his team especially knowing how much effort it takes to organise any trip in the bush with or without kids so I will "pull my head in" and move on.
c

[prbratho]

It's good to hear you and the children all survived. Learn from the experience. I hope it doesn't put you off doing it again.

[Taurë-rana]

I wonder whether we sometimes forget the fact that one of the reasons we like to be in the bush is because there is an element of risk. That means that at times things will go wrong, and sometimes they will go wrong however much we have prepared.
A few years ago there was an incident in a cave involving a school group where one or two kids were drowned, I think? They were in a risky place but as far as I know had assessed the risk and taken precautions but got caught by unforeseen circumstances. The teacher involved later committed suicide. If we are not prepared to accept that there is a certain amount of risk inherent in these activities, and that occasionally things will go wrong, then we should ban the lot, and society will be the poorer.
That's not to say that there shouldn't be blame if things were poorly handled or inadequately prepared for.
Interesting that when young people die in car accidents there often doesn't seem to be the same level of questioning of whose fault it might have been by the media, almost an acceptance that it's tragic but inevitable.

[tasadam]

Having read the newspaper reports online, my thoughts...

As the teenagers had tents, sleeping bags etc ("well equipped", it was reported), the issue is far less a concern than had they not had those provisions.

How they became lost in fog is as yet not known to us - did they wander off track willingly or did they simply lose the track? Were they advised on where to go and what to do in the fog prior to becoming lost, and did they follow the advice they were instructed to?
Depending on circumstances, if boys will be boys and decide to do their own thing to a point, then don't pick up the main group again, there is little that anyone can do - I say that in reference to the fact that there are 60 odd students in this group and they were in fog.
With that many people in a group, I would want each of them to be accountable for themselves to a point - know how to navigate, form buddy-groups of 4 or 5 people so that if one person wants to disappear into the bushes for a crap, the other 3 or so wait so that there is little doubt about their well-being. Things like that. They are teenagers after all, so a bit of self-accountability should be encouraged, so they can deal with events like these if they happen.
The only school group I have encountered was six year 9 girls from a Hobart college on the Overland Track in winter, and they had 4 teachers with them. It would be a lot easier to account for the location of the students in that group, one would suspect.

And Robbo is right regarding the lack of media interest once they have been located safely - appaling.
I wish him the best in a recovery to the stress that this event no doubt caused, I hope to hear from him in this topic should he wish to elaborate on exactly what happened - we could all learn something, and as moderator I ask everyone to keep it polite please, refer to rule 1.

[Robbo]

Communication has been made to the school community re the recent happenings with my group a few weeks ago, and I now feel in a position to respond and give some clarification as to the circumstances surrounding the series of unfortunate mishaps that occurred there.

Due to some of the comments on this forum, and more particularly the hysterical reporting and comments in some of the media outlets in Tasmania especially, I think it appropriate to give some insight into my personal experience as a bushwalker and leader. I will also make further comment about the program we have in place and offer reasons why we are doing what we are doing, and why we will continue to do it. Thank you all for your interest and comments, positive and negative. All are helpful and will assist in our future planning.

Personal Information:
I have been involved in school related bushwalking expeditions for 25 years. My first official experience was as a Duke of Edinburgh Assessor, eventually to Gold level, in NSW. From 1988 to 1997 I worked as a teacher at a school in Hobart. During this time I lead and assessed groups to Silver level in the Duke of Edinburgh Award Scheme. While in Tasmania I took school groups to Mount Field (Silver Assessment), Freycinet x 4 or 5 times (Bronze level),Cape Pillar x 4 or 5 times (training camps), Cockle Creek x 3 (training camps), Wellington Falls x 3, and Walls of Jerusalem x 2 (training camps).

During this time I personally visited Mount Anne twice (only made the summit once), walked the Arthur Plains Track from Scotts Peak to Picton River via the Yo Yo Track, Mount Picton, Freycinet, Cape Pillar, Wellington Falls, and Frenchmans Cap while rafting the Franklin River.

When I transfered to Victoria I set about developing the program we now have in place at Gilson College. Along with other interested teachers, we have developed a full experiential education program for our Year 9 students that includes the now infamous expeditionary component which culminates in a 6 day walk in the Central Plateau/Walls area. We have visited this area for the last 3 years. I will talk through the logistics of this later. This aspect of the program seeks to provide the students with experiences that build self confidence and independence. Our research is showing that this is occurring to a very pleasing level, and is why we will look to ensure that nothing like this happens again if we can help it. Other aspects of the program include Urban Learning and Service Learning components, spread out across the course of the full year. As we are there with the students we are able to take our experiences with us back to classroom, and appear to be getting a high level of transfer from the field to their learning.

Program Information:
Leading up to, and including the 3 visits we have now done, I personally have been to this area on 7 different occasions in the last 3 years for a total of over 40 days. I have walked from and to the east, north east, north, northwest and south. I am now beginning to get a sense of place in this unique and magnificent national treasure. I think, however, the comment by lyndor is appropriate here...

Let's just realise the inherent dangers of going into the Tassie wilderness, her fickleness & beauty, the constant vigilance that must be maintain whether any of us are experienced or not, still encourage people to venture out, learn from any history or events that occur and offer wisdom and advice so we can all enjoy it.

While the other teachers have not visited as often, all have taken their own time to visit Tasmania in preparation for this aspect of the program.

We are very cognizant of the fickleness of Tasmania's weather, and because we must make travel arrangements months in advance, we have contingencies in place if the weather makes visiting alpine areas inappropriate. These include such places as Tasman National Park, Maria Island, Freycinet Peninsular, and Bay of Fires, all of which have been explored for appropriateness, skill level, and equipment and support requirements.

Our students undergo intensive training in the weeks before the trip to Tasmania with training camps to Mt Buangor State Park, and the Bogong High Plains. During these camps students practice walking techniques, cooking, setting up and packing up tents and backpacks, in all conditions.

Program Logistics:
Now, about the actual logistics of how we organise such a large number in such a fragile area to minimise our footprint as much as we can, we have our 60 to 70 students - 63 this year - divided into 7 groups of 8 to 10 students. With each of these groups there is at least one qualified teacher - qualifications both as a teacher and TAFE to at least Outdoor Recreation Certificate 3 in Tracked Bushwalking Guiding - and 2 other qualified people with either Outdoor Rec. Quals, or teaching quals. These groups were then divided in half again for each day's walk in an attempt to spread out the effect they will have on the experience of other walkers, and to minimise our impact if there is any off track walking involved - this is not a hard and fast requirement, but is something we try to do. These 2 groups get back together at the chosen campsites.

In respect of safety, each of these groups had 2 vhf radios with a private frequency, at least 1 GPS, and at least 1 Next G mobile phone. As well we have one Iridium Satellite Phone. All group members had their own compass and map, and have been given intensive theory and practical experience in their use. As to equipment, all group members had thermals, waterproof jackets (at least 3 layer, breathable, taped seamed, bushwalking jackets), 3 season tents and at least -5 sleeping bags, bushwalking boots and gaiters, Trangia type cookers and food for up to 7 days.

The Events on this Trip:
As to what happened in the 2 incidents on this trip - and both of them with the group I was leading? We left from Lake Mackenzie and made our way to Ironstone Hut, spending the first night there. From here it became obvious that 3 of the group were more interested in the the process of the walk than reaching the destination in the shortest possible time, so at my suggestion, we split the group into 2, with 3 students walking with me and the rest with the other guides. Our destination for the 2nd day was the northern side of Lake Gwendy. We made our way to the western end of Hulkyard and then we set our compass bearing - southwest - for the big valley east of Turrana Heights. From this point I shadowed the boys walking just behind and beside them. As we were making our way up the slope towards Turrana Heights some fog blew in from the east and I lost sight of the boys. I made my way to the ridge top before Turrana and waited for the boys. They didn't appear. There was quite a strong easterly wind blowing so verbal contact was unable to be made.

I now made a wrong assumption, believing the boys had turned towards Gwendy early. What in fact happened was that as soon as the fog came in, the boys began to follow the contour of the land instead of their bearing - typical for the inexperienced - and ended up heading towards Little Throne Lake and Little Throne. They worked out where they were from the features around them and set up camp beside a small lake south east of Little Throne Lake. From our camp at Gwendy we did out first search through the valley south and east of Turrana.

The boys woke up the next morning and decided they would make their way back to Lake Hulkyard and then decide what to do. They did make it to Hulkyard, but because of the conditions decided it would be best to go back to the Hut at Nameless. They spent the second night there.

We spent this day walking back to were they were last seen and following their bearing to Turrana - it was very foggy with visibility down to less than 100 metres at times. By the time we were able to see from Turrana Heights the boys had made their way back to the hut, so we were not able to make visual contact. We decided that the next morning that we would go back to the hut to see if they were there.

I did not pull the pin on this until the late in the afternoon, just over 24 hours, after they were last seen. I made the call this late because they had two tents, I cooker, good clothing and gear, and plenty of food - and I assumed they would stay put once they set up their tents; which they were instructed to do if they ever got themselves in such a position, but human nature seems to be that we want to save ourselves..., and the foggy conditions would have made it impossible for an air search.

The helicopter flew in at 7.30 the next morning, and in less than 10 minutes we were at Ironstone Hut, and I was reunited with the boys. The helicopter transported us back to Gwendy and it was decided, after the Paramedic's report as to the condition of the boys, and a discussion with the parents, that we would continue the walk through to Lake Tyre for our campsite and then spend a day at the Walls and walk out on the last day.

It is self evident what lessons can be learned from this event.

The second 'loss' had the potential to be much worse. We made our way from Tyre to Zion Vale and then through Golden Gate to Trappers Hut. We had a break at Wild Dog Creek, and then began the walk to Trappers. The track, while not a major one, is quite obvious. The other leaders were at the front of the group, while I was walking at the rear with the slower boys. We were making good progress when we caught up to one of the boys who needed to go to the toilet. This took quite some time (around 15 minutes) - as it sometimes can when things don't go quite right when 'squatting'. We then headed of and caught up to one of our group waiting for us on the side of the track. The three of us then made our way to Trappers Hut. When we arrived the rest - so I thought - were there and immediately wanted to continue walking to the Car Park. No head count was done at this time. We then made out way to the Car Park and when we all got on the bus we realised that we were missing one boy.

In my discussions with him we found he walked off the track not long after entering the bush, and headed downhill towards what he thought were patches of clear ground. He eventually got to Fish River and made his way to a clearing were he set up his tent for the night. He had some dinner for the night and got a good few hours of sleep, waking up very early with the tent sagging down onto his sleeping bag - he had to use rocks as supports instead of pegs as the area was very rocky. He heard the helicopter fly overhead as he was still in his tent eating breakfast.

In looking at the map we have found that I spent the night in my tent - at Trappers Hut Car Park - less than 500 metres from where he spent the night!

He quickly packed up his tent and gear and made his way down the river towards clearings so he could be seen. In attempting to do this he had to cross the stream and slipped and fell in getting most of his clothing wet. The rescue helicopter finally spotted him about 200 metres from the Fish River Bridge. This is where the SES crew found and and walked him out to the bridge. He was then taken to the Arve River Recreation Centre and the rest has been spoken about, and, exaggerated, at length.

I will make no further comments about this unless there are things which others may find helpful or useful to them.

This is what we do, why we do it, why we will continue to do it, and what happened on this occasion.

I will conclude by saying that we have set in place steps and processes to ensure that this will not happen again.

TR

Edit
If you would like to meet and speak to any of the students, and teachers, involved there is an open/presentation night at Gilson College on May 27 at 7pm. Any who are able to make it are most welcome.

TR

[Niels]

Robbo.

Thank you for both the time and effort taken to write this explanation of both the program and the situation in question. The information above clearly reiterates the preparedness of the students, shown by the appropriate actions they took once they realised they had been separated. Having been a member of a rather haphazard first bushwalk as part of a school group, I understand that there are no-end of contingencies plans that could be made concerning such a trip.
As you stated, plans and changes have been made. This is all we can ask for. So thanks again and for the sake of the students keep this program running!

Niels.

[woka]

Thanks for clarifying Robbo, I'm not surprised the real story is different and less drastic than the lies printed by local press.

My gut feeling is that 63 students, for the areas and tracks you are walking on, is too many to manage the logistics effectively and ensure similar events won't happen again.

I hope you don't see that as a criticism, it's just my opinion. From what you've written here it's obvious to see that in the process of managing the programme, you're doing a lot that is right!

Cheers and I'm glad to hear the program will continue.

[GerryDuke]

Thanks Robo for the 'real' report. I know the sub editor of The Examiner well who gave you a 'serve' in his column last week. I can mention your comments to him if you wish.

Sounds like the boy wandered down the old track on the Fish River Road. I stumbled on this one day when exploring the area. The old damaged foot bridge was still there. The boy did exactly the right thing and looked to be in no danger despite the very poor press.

TheList.tas.gov.au map shows the old track!!

I gather the new access track was put in to provide a more gentle climb to the plateau.

Gerry

[under10kg]

I personally would not take school kids into this exposed area of tasi as part of a large group. I just feel the risk reward ratio is too much on the risk side for me to feel comfortable inside. Things are fine in good weather but tasi is known for wild winds and snow. I am sure there are challenging walks in Victoria that are not so exposed to wild weather.

I am sure you would not have gone into this area with a bad forecast. It sounds like you got mist. What would have happened if you got 1 meter of snow? This can happen in Tasi. I was talking to a friend and he got this in summer many years ago. They spent the night in a tent and they punched a hole in the snow for air every hour.

I know this could sound alarmist. But this sort of weather can occur in summer.

Even with all your great training you gave your teenagers which I commend you, kids are kids and tend to feel they are invincible. They tend to be impulsive and do things that a more mature person would never do. All the training can get forgotten on the spur of the moment if they get lost.

I have even had experience of an adult doing something pretty stupid on a walk because he got too freaked out. And another instance of a rescue by a helicopter from a freak accident unexpected by a strong walker.

Just my opinion and I totally respect you for all the great things are are doing with these kids. I started my bushwalking at school many years ago and know how valuable an experince you are giveing these kids.

Congratulations.

One thing that could be of interest is to have a buddy system. I have experinced this in some challanging workshops I have done. Each person has a buddy that they take the responsibiliby of knowing where their buddy is at all times and generally being a buddy too. Every hour you have a buddy check in or more in bad weather as well as the usual head count.

[Nuts]

..

[Clownfish]

Okay, I'll play Devil's Advocate here; there are a couple of items in Robbo's report that piqued my interest ...

I shadowed the boys walking just behind and beside them. As we were making our way up the slope towards Turrana Heights some fog blew in from the east and I lost sight of the boys. I made my way to the ridge top before Turrana and waited for the boys. They didn't appear. There was quite a strong easterly wind blowing so verbal contact was unable to be made.

I'm curious: "Shadowed" meaning how close, exactly? I get the impression that the adult was far enough away to be out of earshot when the fog blew in. If so, that strikes me as more than a little risky. Just personally, when I'm walking with my kids, I insist that everyone stays within sight and earshot at all times, even on well-worn tracks.

With this and the account of the second incident, the other thing that strikes me is that both parties seem to have consistently broken the cardinal rule that I have drummed into my boys: If they find themselves lost and unable to get a bearing - STAY PUT and blow their whistles. Don't go wandering blindly on, taking a guess at where they are.