144 km walk in the Grampians : great walks in Oz ?

[Hallu]

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/144ki ... huis0.html

This article about the Grampians walk (that most of us knew was coming) made me think. I like the Grampians, but let's face it, it's a lot less wild than the great walks of Tassie or NZ. You got transmission towers on summits like Mt William with a sealed road leading to it, and unlike what the article says, easy access already to all the main interesting points... You got Halls Gap in the middle of a National Park, and Lake Bellfield, an artificial lake. I wonder if it feels like something backpackers would pay top dollar to hike ,I mean you got people flying in Australia JUST for the Overland Track, including Euros and Americans. But that Grampian walk, I feel like it would be a more of a nice bushwalk for Aussies, but I don't see it becoming a worldwide famous walk like the Overland Track, or Milford Sound, Routeburn etc...

To me the best place for such a wild walk would be at Croajingolong. There's already is one, the Wildernest Coast Walk, but it could benefit from water tanks, better campgrounds, an inland section to make it circuit, and a bigger section taking part in NSW. It's already a Unesco World Biosphere Reserve, it's got a beautiful forest and wildlife, incredible beaches. There's also huge potential for a desert walk combining all the Mallee Parks in North West Victoria, if some farmland were to be bought back and native plant replanted to have corridors between Little Desert and Wyperfeld and Murray Sunset and Hattah-Kulkyne, that would make an amazing walk, although surely less attractive to foreign tourists than Croajingolong. Where do you think a walk beautiful and wild enough to rival the Overland Track could be made in Australia ? And why does the OT attract so many people, while Larapinta or the AAWT surely aren't as famous ? Is it the huts ? Tasmania itself ? Or simply a good advertisement campaign ?

[AlexB]

Croajingalong is indeed gorgeous and not too built up. If there was a good circuit with facilities like you describing, starting out of Mallacoota or somewhere I would definitely put it on my bucket list!

But I think the idea of a walk that's in range of settlements is actually appealling to some people -- I have friends who hike in the UK and US and have never spent a night in a tent! So there is certainly a population of hikers who don't consider "no sign of human settlement" to be a necessary part of their enjoyment of a hike.

I suspect the Grampians track will be pretty successful and I wish it the best of luck.

[Strider]

AlexB have you ever walked in Tassie? An almost complete lack of human interference is what makes bushwalking so special IMO. I want to check out rhe Grampians sometime, but by the soinds of it my time would be better spent flying to Tassie for a few days when needed.

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

[Hallu]

Yeah but then it would mean a totally different type of tourist targetted by this Grampians walk than the Overland Track they quote in the article. Besides, I don't know what kind of terrain you'd go through in the Grampians walk, I haven't looked at the itinerary, but some parts of the Grampians are pretty technical or vertiginous, not the type of terrain for the population of hikers you're describing.

Croajingolong is a hard walk at the moment. But what makes it hard is the lack of water, the river/inlet crossings, and sometimes fallen trees (I've encountered some on the sections I've done) showing a lack of maintenance on the track. All problems that can be solved easily if a great walk were to be prepared here. Some people are gonna say "yeah but it's far from Melbourne or Sydney". Yeah, it's 5h from Melbourne, but the start of the OT is still far from Hobart or Launceston. Croajingolong is my favorite coastal place in Victoria (with the Cape Nelson/Bridgewater area) and I think many people on this forum would agree that a great walk here would be far superior to the Great Ocean Walk. I hope they do it someday, and do it right (i.e. a nice maintained track but kept wild).

[AlexB]

AlexB have you ever walked in Tassie? An almost complete lack of human interference is what makes bushwalking so special IMO. I want to check out rhe Grampians sometime, but by the soinds of it my time would be better spent flying to Tassie for a few days when needed.

Yeah, if you want complete lack of human interference then the Grampians are not for you. It's possible to have a multi-day walk there without sighting asphalt but you'd have to plan it well. I think the Grampians mostly excel at daywalks to 2 nighters, based out of a well serviced carpark on a sealed road. It's got lots of climbing too. I think it's actually much more of a destination for climbers than walkers.

Just looking at http://parkweb.vic.gov.au/__data/assets ... ochure.pdf which is their "main attraction" hike at the moment (36km over three days) it looks like day 1 is 8.6km with 600m ascent and grades up to 23%, day 2 comes right back down again over 14km, and day 3 is flattish and looks pretty dull over 14km. During that time you'll pass several carparks and cross several sealed roads, and on day 3 you're mostly walking along the edge of a very obviously non-natural reservoir.

I'd expect the longer trail they're creating to be more along those lines -- I'd say medium-hard difficulty, and crossing/touching lots of roads/carparks (though most likely not walking along actual roads very much). So yeah, it's not going to be a beginner track, even if it does have non-camping accommodations at some points.

Mind you, as a caveat to all this, I haven't done more than day walks in the Grampians in 20 years, so I defer to anyone who has more recent or relevant experience

[Hallu]

I think it's gonna be like the Great Ocean Walk : people getting really excited, but then after doing it thinking it could have been better, or that it may not be worthwhile to spend all your vacation just on the walk while day walks and visiting other just as interesting areas would have been preferable. And in the end, only locals will walk it, just to say "I've done it". They need to make it special, different, otherwise it'll be pretty dull indeed. I think nowadays on the forum I see a lot more people who walked sections of the GOW than the whole thing. Same with the Grampians, I predict advices such as : "just do this section, it's the best, the rest is boring". I could be wrong, the Aussies know how to build a beautiful track. But it needs to be met with a strong will to restore the Grampians to its previous wild state. Maybe close some 4WD, remove transmission towers ?

[JulianS]

Hallu -
With respect, I don't think you've acknowledged a key point regarding Croajingolong. It's called the Wilderness Coast Walk because it includes designated wilderness areas that remain deliberately undeveloped (i.e. in terms of walking / camping infrastructure). The lack of reliability when it comes to water, inlet crossings, etc makes it the unique place/experience that it is. Frankly, I would be appalled if plans were afoot to install the facilities you refer to.

The northern section (Nadgee Howe) already has a lot of what you mentioned - well-defined campgrounds, etc - and could be coupled with the Light to Light in Ben Boyd NP. Given these options, I really don't see a case for further development of the SW section of Croajingolong (which might not even be feasible given how dynamic that coastline is; i.e. inlets opening & closing all the time). Certainly walking in Croajingolong is not easy to plan/complete given where it is and the difficulties you have described. However, that's the way I like it - after all, if wilderness areas are made easy for people to access and spend time in then they're no longer wilderness areas...

I understand the value of showpiece walks like the Overland, but I don't think they should be set up in what little (particularly coastal) wilderness we have left.

[Hallu]

Well let's be clear : I would be sad to see Croajingolong becoming a new Overland Track. But I would also love to see better walking tracks there, and I'm thinking that if it becomes a Great Walk, it'll become even better protected. I mean there's also the forests North of Croajingolong, and these forests could be open to logging if the government decided to. It's already the case North of highway 1, you see logging trucks all the time. I tried to explore Croajingolong/Nadgee as a day walker as best as I could, and it was a little bit too hard (bumpy roads, fallen trees on the walks, overgrowth near lookouts, fallen roadsigns), appart from the sections close to Mallacoota. It's a gem for sure, and I'm wondering if we should leave it that way (but will it mean it'll be more vulnerable for being too little known in the eyes of Australia) or should we make sure everyone can visit it so that it'll be so loved no one will dare touch it ? It's a century old debate...

[jimjim]

, I don't know what kind of terrain you'd go through in the Grampians walk, I haven't looked at the itinerary, but some parts of the Grampians are pretty technical or vertiginous, not the type of terrain for the population of hikers you're describing.
.

I went for a bash up Signal Peak which is just North of Mt Abrupt a few weeks ago and happened on a very recently marked (but vague) pink tape marked trail leading right up and over Signal Peak summit, then hooked into the Mt Abrupt track. Signal Pk is a stunning peak with a distinct summit and a real alpine feel with stunted vegetation, a huge cliff face and great rocks.

A little research suggests this was to be part of the path of the 20015 "Serra Terra". Indeed on their website they state that their 2015 route follows part of the planned Grampians Peak Trail. Photos of the route where it drops of the North-East shoulder of Signal peak can be seen on their website.

If this is correct and the GPT will be routed over Signal Peak, Mt Abrupt (and then ?down the old climbers decent from Mt Abrupt) it will be a stunning conclusion to the GPT (but might spoil what is now a rarely visited and inaccessible peak...)

Jim

[Snowzone]

, I don't know what kind of terrain you'd go through in the Grampians walk, I haven't looked at the itinerary, but some parts of the Grampians are pretty technical or vertiginous, not the type of terrain for the population of hikers you're describing.
.

I went for a bash up Signal Peak which is just North of Mt Abrupt a few weeks ago and happened on a very recently marked (but vague) pink tape marked trail leading right up and over Signal Peak summit, then hooked into the Mt Abrupt track. Signal Pk is a stunning peak with a distinct summit and a real alpine feel with stunted vegetation, a huge cliff face and great rocks.

A little research suggests this was to be part of the path of the 20015 "Serra Terra". Indeed on their website they state that their 2015 route follows part of the planned Grampians Peak Trail. Photos of the route where it drops of the North-East shoulder of Signal peak can be seen on their website.

If this is correct and the GPT will be routed over Signal Peak, Mt Abrupt (and then ?down the old climbers decent from Mt Abrupt) it will be a stunning conclusion to the GPT (but might spoil what is now a rarely visited and inaccessible peak...)

Jim

Hi Jim, you are correct in your assumption that the pink marking tape you found was indeed put there for the serra terra which was held the long weekend in June. The Serra Terra organisers have been working in conjunction with a GPT scoping party. Yes the GPT will be going over the top of Signal Point and down the other side of Mount Abrupt. The route is still being fine tuned for that section but yes will be stunning when completed.

[north-north-west]

Hi Jim, you are correct in your assumption that the pink marking tape you found was indeed put there for the serra terra which was held the long weekend in June. The Serra Terra organisers have been working in conjunction with a GPT scoping party. Yes the GPT will be going over the top of Signal Point and down the other side of Mount Abrupt. The route is still being fine tuned for that section but yes will be stunning when completed.

Sounds pretty good, really. Includes Briggs and Gar as well as the Major Mitchell. Pity it seems to miss the Seven Dials. That would have been a great inclusion.

[jimjim]

[/quote]
Hi Jim, you are correct in your assumption that the pink marking tape you found was indeed put there for the serra terra which was held the long weekend in June. The Serra Terra organisers have been working in conjunction with a GPT scoping party. Yes the GPT will be going over the top of Signal Point and down the other side of Mount Abrupt. The route is still being fine tuned for that section but yes will be stunning when completed.[/quote]

Thanks. I guess a whole lot of people are putting in a whole lot of work right now. It must be quite an exciting thing to be part of.

In relation to the question posed by the OP, comparing the GPT to the Overland Track, there will of course be no comparison, but I can see the GPT being incredibly popular with local walkers and internationals alike. The number of people who consider themselves "walkers" yet who want to sleep comfortably after a shower and a degustation selection at the royal mail would far outweigh (in my opinion) the number who want to camp out for multiple nights in a row.

The GPT will be an absolute winner for Western Victorian tourism.

[andrewp]

Sounds pretty good, really. Includes Briggs and Gar as well as the Major Mitchell.

...but the bad news is that I think we lose Major Mitchell as a 2-day walk. There will be new camp sites at Mt William (underneath the comms tower?) and off the plateau closer to Jimmy Creek. I suspect that camping at First Wannon will then be prohibited.

Did you see the camp shelter that has been built at the first campsite? It's a tunnel open at both ends with a bench on each side separated by a large open space. No sign of a table. Just hope it's not windy.

[Lophophaps]

It seems that the Grampians walk will be more suited for walkers that want or accept being close to significant man-made features such as roads and towns. Is there a similar walk in Australia, and if so, how popular is it and what sort of people use it? Might there be room for two ends of the bushwalking spectrum, people that want to stay close to civilisation and those that seek more remote places?

[north-north-west]

The Grampians has long been a place where both remoteness and the closeness of 'civilisation' are misleading. A lot of it feels like it's a long way from anywhere, but it's still a very easy place to get lost and/or run into trouble.

No doubt this walk will generally be tamer than the OT, but it may still be harder. Difficult to say until it has been built. But while I prefer getting away from people, it's a walk I'd like to do. Never did explore as much of the Grumps as I'd like, and this thing will do what the OT does - provide access to some good off-track stuff.

[peregrinator]

The GPT will ultimately have some sections which are far superior to this initial stage. Arguably, the least appealling section has been chosen as the first to be "opened", although one can understand why linking it to Halls Gap will attract some walkers, as AlexB and Lophophaps suggested. And those users might contribute to State and private revenue perhaps, that being one of the prime motivations for creating contrived walks like this one. But why walk back beside man-made Lake Bellfield? If it is necessary to return to Halls Gap, I think going back the way you came is a better option.

Finally, a practical tip for anyone who hasn't been in the area for a while. The "Stony Creek Campsite" shown on the Parks Vic brochure (see link in AlexB's second post) is not, in my opinion, a campsite. Looks more like a carpark to me.

[AlexB]

Finally, a practical tip for anyone who hasn't been in the area for a while. The "Stony Creek Campsite" shown on the Parks Vic brochure (see link in AlexB's second post) is not, in my opinion, a campsite. Looks more like a carpark to me.

The accompanying text suggests this is a "group hikers campsite" so probably intended for larger groups?

[peregrinator]

The accompanying text suggests this is a "group hikers campsite" so probably intended for larger groups?

Correct, but what I was alluding to is that it's a very unattractive site, so whether one is in a group or not, perhaps look elsewhere. It is a fenced-off area so that vehicles can't damage the vegetation past the fence. Pitch tent on mud or dust. I believe it is primarily there to serve rock climbers (Mt Rosea is nearby). There is a locked toilet and bugger-all else. Oh, sorry, it's got one of those huge fire contraptions for cooking the feral deer you catch up there.

Hmm, maybe this thread ought to be on the Victorian page?

[Hallu]

No it' shouldn't be moved I created it to talk about this and other great walks in Australia as the title suggests.

[peregrinator]

No it' shouldn't be moved I created it to talk about this and other great walks in Australia as the title suggests.

My apologies, Hallu. Yes, I agree. I was thinking out loud whether perhaps a new thread should have been set up earlier when details about the GPT started to be raised. Practical matters which diverge from your speculative issues. Is it too late now for a new thread on those details?

So, back to the conceptual level you initiated. Building another "iconic" walk somewhere else instead (around a church, with icons?!?) would raise the same doubts for me about value for expenditure. $29 million of government funding for this one seems a bit excessive. Especially when the greatest visitor numbers would be expected be in the Wonderland and Halls Gap area where very little new expenditure is required.

[Nuts]

Good Morning

The OLT, quite deservedly, became popular on it's intrinsic merit. “This must be a national park for the people for all time. It is magnificent and people must know about it and enjoy it.” More recent popularity is probably driven by the ticklist though overwhelmingly people finish the track with a positive review of the experience, partly (i'd say mostly) due to the indelible attributes of such unique and diverse landscape.

A great walk can be made, The Larapinta Trail seems like a success, but I imagine there will be some failures if every parky wants their 'OLT'. Even in Tassie we see speculative building of track and facilities, I'm sure those involved would be less enthusiastic in investing their own money.

This direction still hasn't got further than the bare bones (to me). In the heady world of high fliers in Parks and Tourism we have this notion of increasing visitation to backcountry as a good thing. Use it or loose it?

Flora and Fauna don't care, they are invariably better off without us. So here again is this encouraged 'group think' resulting in some Need to increase visitation, build tracks and facilities, generate income.. Very little revenue is generated from overnight walking tracks. The OLT return in case, would be so much less than that from the various interests contained around the perimeters (at LSC and Cradle Mt, accommodation,travel, transport etc). Despite a bushwalkers view of what is worthwhile seeing, the substantial money can be generated from a car or bus window with a smattering of creepy crawly walks for the adventurous.

What iv'e seen of the Gramps has been interesting, i'd like to do more than day walks there. Personally, I have no idea whether a long developed trail would be 'successful', some here have a much better local perspective others a much better grasp of the global context. I'd say, there does need to be some lateral thinking/grounding in what we are hoping to achieve, bridled enthusiasm for spending hard won money in this way. If it's successful, the precedent as been set for more of the same, more happy trails, infrastructure, need to always 'increase' to be continually successful, i'm not yet convinced the conservation collective has really thought through this 'taming the wilds' in a wider context. The new generation of walkers (eg on the OLT) accepts what they find as 'normal', even in my short time I lament for what has & will come of their lesser expectations, ignorant by default to what is already being diminished on their behalf.

[north-north-west]

Good Morning

The OLT, quite deservedly, became popular on it's intrinsic merit. “This must be a national park for the people for all time. It is magnificent and people must know about it and enjoy it.” More recent popularity is probably driven by the ticklist though overwhelmingly people finish the track with a positive review of the experience, partly (i'd say mostly) due to the indelible attributes of such unique and diverse landscape.

A great walk can be made, The Larapinta Trail seems like a success, but I imagine there will be some failures if every parky wants their 'OLT'. Even in Tassie we see speculative building of track and facilities, I'm sure those involved would be less enthusiastic in investing their own money.

This direction still hasn't got further than the bare bones (to me). In the heady world of high fliers in Parks and Tourism we have this notion of increasing visitation to backcountry as a good thing. Use it or loose it?

Flora and Fauna don't care, they are invariably better off without us. So here again is this encouraged 'group think' resulting in some Need to increase visitation, build tracks and facilities, generate income.. Very little revenue is generated from overnight walking tracks. The OLT return in case, would be so much less than that from the various interests contained around the perimeters (at LSC and Cradle Mt, accommodation,travel, transport etc). Despite a bushwalkers view of what is worthwhile seeing, the substantial money can be generated from a car or bus window with a smattering of creepy crawly walks for the adventurous.

What I've seen of the Gramps has been interesting, I'd like to do more than day walks there. Personally, I have no idea whether a long developed trail would be 'successful', some here have a much better local perspective others a much better grasp of the global context. I'd say, there does need to be some lateral thinking/grounding in what we are hoping to achieve, bridled enthusiasm for spending hard won money in this way. If it's successful, the precedent as been set for more of the same, more happy trails, infrastructure, need to always 'increase' to be continually successful, I'm not yet convinced the conservation collective has really thought through this 'taming the wilds' in a wider context. The new generation of walkers (eg on the OLT) accepts what they find as 'normal', even in my short time I lament for what has & will come of their lesser expectations, ignorant by default to what is already being diminished on their behalf.

All very good points with which I agree and I could comment on a lot but it's that last sentence that really gets me.
You hear so many people saying how the Overland is a hard walk. But with the amount of upgrading that track has had since the booking system . . . it's a *&%$#! freeway compared to what it was even just 15 years ago.
I'm not that old, but I can clearly recall a time when the Overland really was reasonably hard work for a track.

Gariwerd/Grampians is a popular park. But it's less a place for the longer-distance walkers than for daytrippers and tourists. For people whose limit is a two hour amble from the carpark to see a waterfall or lookout. The rock climbers and serious walkers are a very small minority there, and a long-distance walk won't attract enough of the latter to make the financial investment worthwhile.
But I'd still love to do this track even with the boring bits.

[Lophophaps]

Nuts, agree with much of what you say. I don't know enough to comment on all aspects. NNW, agree. Like many places, the OLT is harder the longer ago you walked it. Mud was deeper, gear was heavy and cumbersome by today's standards, and maps were sometimes suss. I can clearly recall using a 1":1 mile map and getting lost, only to find that in the next edition a mountain had moved.

However, the mud, gear, maps et al were accepted as normal, no complaints. I think that a modern walked used to flash huts, well-marked tracks, a glut of track notes, instant comms, SLR cameras that weigh not much, music available on demand, a GPS, light gear and other modern developments would struggle with a steel H-frame pack and the contents.

At most the Grampians can have a 2-3 day walk in more or less remote places, and that is near The Fortress. The rest is suitable for two days of walking, some off tracks, or day trips. On my Grampians walking and climbing trips I might have bought an ice cream at Halls Gap or Dunkeld if passing through. If going to, say, Stapylton there are no shops so nothing was bought west of Ballarat. It's hard to see the economic benefit of such walkers and climbers. The construction will add jobs, and maybe there will be a ranger or two to look after the track. Probably not. Governments are keen to publicise major devolopments, but are less keen to provide ongoing funding.

[Hallu]

We may simply have to accept that, indeed, you can't put an OLT in Victoria. Or you should do something about the AAWT to have a week long walk or something. Maybe a mountains to ocean walk would be nice ? Like Coopacambra to Croajingolong, or Snowy NP to Cape Conran I don't know. The problem is there aren't enough uninterrupted wild places in Victoria. Even the Great South West walk has those hideous pine plantations ruining it.

[GBW]

Hallu...what's wrong with the AAWT as it is...minimal maintainance, undefined tracks, overgrown...just the way some people like it.

[Hallu]

Nothing's wrong with it, I just think that if the Vic government wants to put a 1 week great walk somewhere, it has to be in the Aussie Alps.

[GBW]

It's already a great walk without the Vic government.

[Hallu]

Yes I know, don't be on edge like that =)

[north-north-west]

Hallu...what's wrong with the AAWT as it is...minimal maintainance, undefined tracks, overgrown...just the way some people like it.

Again, much of the Victorian section of the AAWT gets more maintenance than it did 15-20 years ago. There's hardly anything left that could be called 'undefined'.
Of course, this means that most of the other tracks in the ANP get no maintenance, but we can't have everything, can we?

I'm too much old-school for this. My own prejudice is for the rough, undefined, overgrown, genuine hard work to find your way old version of the AAWT. Too much of the Victorian section has been dumbed down, and too much of the NSW section never was anything but dumb and easy.
But that's the way of the modern walker.

I just think that if the Vic government wants to put a 1 week great walk somewhere, it has to be in the Aussie Alps.

That's what logic and the experienced walker would say. But the Grumps are easier access year-round.
Week-long great walk in Victorian Alps . . . just pick a suitable section of the AAWT and go for it. Start at the Omeo Highway and head south over Wills
South, Wills, Long Spur, Bogong, Quartz Ridge, Grey Hills, Spion Kopje, Nelses, Cope, Bundara, Jim , sidetrip to Niggerhead & the Fainters, Basalt Temple, Swindlers, Loch, Machinery Spur, Diamantina Spur, sidetrip to Feathertop, Razorback . . . is that a week's worth yet?

[jimjim]

Hallu...what's wrong with the AAWT as it is...minimal maintainance, undefined tracks, overgrown...just the way some people like it.

Again, much of the Victorian section of the AAWT gets more maintenance than it did 15-20 years ago. There's hardly anything left that could be called 'undefined'.
Of course, this means that most of the other tracks in the ANP get no maintenance, but we can't have everything, can we?

I'm too much old-school for this. My own prejudice is for the rough, undefined, overgrown, genuine hard work to find your way old version of the AAWT. Too much of the Victorian section has been dumbed down, and too much of the NSW section never was anything but dumb and easy.
But that's the way of the modern walker.

I just think that if the Vic government wants to put a 1 week great walk somewhere, it has to be in the Aussie Alps.

That's what logic and the experienced walker would say. But the Grumps are easier access year-round.
Week-long great walk in Victorian Alps . . . just pick a suitable section of the AAWT and go for it. Start at the Omeo Highway and head south over Wills
South, Wills, Long Spur, Bogong, Quartz Ridge, Grey Hills, Spion Kopje, Nelses, Cope, Bundara, Jim , sidetrip to Niggerhead & the Fainters, Basalt Temple, Swindlers, Loch, Machinery Spur, Diamantina Spur, sidetrip to Feathertop, Razorback . . . is that a week's worth yet?

I think the whole point of the GPT is being missed here. It is not being built to create a great bushwalk for bushwalkers, it is being made to attract tourists and take as much of their money as possible. The glossy 100 odd page document that went to government promoting the concept said as much. Have a read if it is still available. It is all about marketing and selling the concept. Just like selling the 12 apostles..glossy photos, smiling couples, no dirty or smelly people to be seen.

The creators of the GPT concept I think have been clever to tap into the current fad concept of "hiking" as a spiritual answer to the woes of modern life. "Here! Come and cleanse your urban soul in the wilds just like that woman in the movie did!!" They know the vast majority of people on the GPT will walk day sections interspersed with hotel accommodation, wine from Coonawarra, a chopper flight over the 12 apostles and a picnic supplied by a local winery and then go home to tell their friends they have come home from the 144 km GPT. (who would brag about the above if it is just a 2km wander to bridal veil falls??)

In terms of creating an iconic multiday walk without road crossings or views to cleared land good luck! How about sunset country?