Do you kill the dream or guide it?

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Do you kill the dream or guide it?

Postby walkon » Tue 17 Nov, 2015 4:29 pm

Which way do you go?

We've seen a few fresh faces pop up with dreams of doing some pretty good trips and it seems that unless the OP has stated a long list of cred, the advice is don't do it cause blah blaaah.

Starting out, I learnt by biting off more than I could chew and having a red hot go. From school hikes and camping with the old man to a 20 odd day trip up the bush with mates. No phone, plb, radio... or much of a idea really, just old fashioned map compass and enthusiasm. Nothing was stopping us and anyone who said we couldn't do it only gave us ammunition to prove them wrong. A few blokes who could see this gave us a guiding hand in the right direction. Sure we were unprepared, got wet, hungry and lost on occasions but it was this last help that gave us extra tools to help get us through.

While there has been an epic failure recently my hat goes off to those who dream big and go for it. Personally I offer advice on the open forum or by pm and you soon see when they realise that they have to change or improve things.

Sometimes, as in the case of the pommy guy, no amount of advice was going to sink in. Real life was the only teacher there.

A while back, some Tassie guys, had a big trip off track and bit off more than they could chew. They got hammered by the conditions and didn't reach the destination, but that's ok. They changed plan to suit and it was a good read following their journey in how they dealt with it.

Currently we have a girl named Isabel doing the AAWT and there is a negative vibe in the comments around how she is going. In some places where she has blogged that she was lost, I had lost the track in places as well, I knew where I was and with the track named as indistinct (other words most likely not there) you navigated to where you had to go. That's what they most likely did and they got through. I love the fact that she isn't sitting on the couch at home on facebook. We need more kids out there and lucky for her that she has such supportive parents. I'll hopefully meet up with her somewhere on the track and it will be good seeing someone chasing a dream.

So do you kill the dream or put the extra effort in and guide it?
Cheers Walkon

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Re: Do you kill the dream or guide it?

Postby stepbystep » Tue 17 Nov, 2015 4:35 pm

If you have the time, inclination, desire. Guide it. The more people that connect with wild places the better off our planet will be. If you have none of those things, some good advice is to find a mentor with experience, or dare I say, tell them to take it stepbystep, before they walkon :)
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Re: Do you kill the dream or guide it?

Postby Gadgetgeek » Tue 17 Nov, 2015 5:16 pm

My vote is to guide it. If someone doesn't listen then that's on them. If they get advice that proves helpful (even if they don't use it, if they find you were right) they will be more likely to continue, learn and share. End those dreams and no one pushes boundaries, eventually all the walks are cart paths, and the steep trails are cable cars.
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Re: Do you kill the dream or guide it?

Postby walkon » Tue 17 Nov, 2015 6:12 pm

stepbystep wrote:If you have the time, inclination, desire. Guide it. The more people that connect with wild places the better off our planet will be. If you have none of those things, some good advice is to find a mentor with experience, or dare I say, tell them to take it stepbystep, before they walkon :)


:) mmm what a mix, they'd have damn good photos and get out lots 8)

a bit of good advice is all the guidance some need
Cheers Walkon

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Re: Do you kill the dream or guide it?

Postby Hermione » Tue 17 Nov, 2015 9:38 pm

I think gentle guidance is the best option here. Everyone makes some mistakes when starting out (in anything) but I think the aim here is help ensure they're not life threatening ones. without being too overbearing. If your pack is too heavy, next time you might think more carefully about what you take, no real harm done. There's a quote (can't remember by whom) "good decisions come from experience and experience comes from bad decisions". As a mentor it's our job to try and ensure the bad decisions aren't too bad I guess.
I also think it's our responsibility as human beings to share our knowledge with others. Of course not everyone is prepared to accept guidance and then there probably isn't much to be done.
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Re: Do you kill the dream or guide it?

Postby Sandbars » Tue 17 Nov, 2015 9:52 pm

I have spoken with both our pommy friend and the delightful Isabel. Our pommy friend I gave this advice: use your gear before you get here. Spend a night alone outside before you get here. I am not sure any advice helped him - and I am a little saddened that he spent so much money and did so little here.

Isabel on the other hand - I am not sure what she did to attract the negative vibe, even down to people commenting on her command of English, which seems totally irrelevant to her capacity to walk. She acknowledges that she is not the most proficient in bushcraft, but she has listened to some decent advice (she has a PBL, an amazing support team, etc). She chose to start close to home, in the easy section, and walk her way smart and fit. Maybe the hills after Hotham will teach her a thing or two, but to be honest - they knocked me around, and I have a couple of 1000's of kms of walking under my belt. Mostly I am in awe of her, she is so vibrant and positive. She has said this amazing thing -" I am going to walk 700km because maybe it might make a difference to the world, might make someone more compassionate, might make someones life better - or not, but at least I will have tried". And to be loving the outdoors, and the walking, its cool, inspiring even. Its a nice foil for the young people that spend their lives indoors and only venture outside to steal cars that the media would have you believe is an entire generation.

Both Isabel and Gareth are still young and still growing up, and maybe still have that blessing of youth that you can believe that you can achieve anything, and maybe that makes them rush in where angels fear to tread. But really, have you ever watched a baby learn to walk? They make mistakes, they get scraped knees, they fall over. We encourage them and try to protect them from the worst of it, and take a sigh of relief when they are finally proficient. Why should beginner bushwalkers be any different? We make mistakes, we fall over, we spend wet and uncomfortable nights, we learn, we adapt. As long as people are not heading out in a t-shirt in the snow, then surely we can encourage, while trying to share some hard earned experience?
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Re: Do you kill the dream or guide it?

Postby Lophophaps » Tue 17 Nov, 2015 10:12 pm

There are some very evocative words above, far too many to cite. The end of the preceding post serves as a good summary:

Sandbars wrote:Both Isabel and Gareth are still young and still growing up, and maybe still have that blessing of youth that you can believe that you can achieve anything, and maybe that makes them rush in where angels fear to tread. But really, have you ever watched a baby learn to walk? They make mistakes, they get scraped knees, they fall over. We encourage them and try to protect them from the worst of it, and take a sigh of relief when they are finally proficient. Why should beginner bushwalkers be any different? We make mistakes, we fall over, we spend wet and uncomfortable nights, we learn, we adapt. As long as people are not heading out in a t-shirt in the snow, then surely we can encourage, while trying to share some hard earned experience?


I've always obtained a sense of pride that people I have taught end up being proficient and safe in the bush, on rock or on skis. Sometimes their natural ability exceeds mine, and they are better than me - wonderful. Others gave me good advice when I was a lot younger, so there's a sense of duty to give new starters - indeed anyone - such advice as is needed.

It's not a competition. It's about enjoying the outdoors, and part of that is assisting people, which may be people in your party or strangers, of any level of experience. For many of us, assisting others is part of who we are, something that can never be switched off, even when we return to what passes for civilisation
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Re: Do you kill the dream or guide it?

Postby Walk_fat boy_walk » Wed 18 Nov, 2015 4:50 am

I prefer to manage risk than avoid it.

I'm also happy to provide advice to whomever on the assumption that they're grown ups and can manage their own risk.
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Re: Do you kill the dream or guide it?

Postby north-north-west » Wed 18 Nov, 2015 7:16 am

Guidance is always the best option. But sometimes you know from your own experience of places and conditions that people are not just stepping outside their comfort zone, but taking big enough bites to choke themselves* and endanger others in the process. And if those people won't listen to plainly expressed advice . . . well, when it's drugs or gambling or similar addictions we refer to 'enablers'. To me, not plainly saying that someone is trying to run before they have learnt to crawl is being an enabler.
You don't have to jump up and down and trample the dreamers into the dust, but warning them about flaws in planing and preparation is part of the guidance. And for some of us it's hard to have that advice ignored - at least in part because we're aware of the potential consequences.

Or am I just trying to excuse my own occasional lack of patience with some of the more blatant wannabes . . . :?

(*please excuse the mixed metaphors. it's a caffeine-free day)
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Re: Do you kill the dream or guide it?

Postby icefest » Wed 18 Nov, 2015 8:09 am

north-north-west wrote:
You don't have to jump up and down and trample the dreamers into the dust, but warning them about flaws in planing and preparation is part of the guidance. And for some of us it's hard to have that advice ignored - at least in part because we're aware of the potential consequences.


This.

Mostly enable. An important part of this is popping soap bubbles though. Vanishing falls will never be an easy beginner hike. It would be irresponsible to not explain why to someone who has never scrub-bashed in the SW.

That being said, I'll lead a club beginners bushwalk a couple of times a year often just tagging along while beginners lead/plan their walk - my favorite way of guiding.
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Re: Do you kill the dream or guide it?

Postby neilmny » Wed 18 Nov, 2015 11:08 am

You certainly don't kill the dream.
If you genuinely have the knowledge, offer guidance, hope that it is taken.
If the person is not already aware, I think a strong warning of severe risk should be given. Personally I think to not warn in the circumstances would be irresponsible.

I think wildwalks did a great job trying to enlighten and helping out the "pommie guy".
I think it's very sad that the "pommie guy" didn't get to experience even some of the less arduous secions of the AAWT. Let's hope he comes back for another crack at it.
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Re: Do you kill the dream or guide it?

Postby GPSGuided » Wed 18 Nov, 2015 12:21 pm

Dream is achieved when appropriately planned and guided. That's all. Just assume there are no evil dreams.
Just move it!
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Re: Do you kill the dream or guide it?

Postby Nuts » Wed 18 Nov, 2015 2:39 pm

Edited, DIb Dib
Last edited by Nuts on Thu 19 Nov, 2015 7:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Do you kill the dream or guide it?

Postby neilmny » Wed 18 Nov, 2015 3:03 pm

I have no idea how this relates to the OP Nuts. :?:
Don't think it was about inviting all and sundry into secret places just walking the AAWT.
Just about encouraging those that want to have a go to have a go.
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Re: Do you kill the dream or guide it?

Postby Nuts » Wed 18 Nov, 2015 3:08 pm

Ok, too broad perhaps.

neilmny wrote:Just about encouraging those that want to have a go to have a go.


I know.. I do this too ( :? )
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Re: Do you kill the dream or guide it?

Postby geoskid » Wed 18 Nov, 2015 8:15 pm

walkon wrote:Which way do you go?

We've seen a few fresh faces pop up with dreams of doing some pretty good trips and it seems that unless the OP has stated a long list of cred, the advice is don't do it cause blah blaaah.

Starting out, I learnt by biting off more than I could chew and having a red hot go. From school hikes and camping with the old man to a 20 odd day trip up the bush with mates. No phone, plb, radio... or much of a idea really, just old fashioned map compass and enthusiasm. Nothing was stopping us and anyone who said we couldn't do it only gave us ammunition to prove them wrong. A few blokes who could see this gave us a guiding hand in the right direction. Sure we were unprepared, got wet, hungry and lost on occasions but it was this last help that gave us extra tools to help get us through.

While there has been an epic failure recently my hat goes off to those who dream big and go for it. Personally I offer advice on the open forum or by pm and you soon see when they realise that they have to change or improve things.

Sometimes, as in the case of the pommy guy, no amount of advice was going to sink in. Real life was the only teacher there.

A while back, some Tassie guys, had a big trip off track and bit off more than they could chew. They got hammered by the conditions and didn't reach the destination, but that's ok. They changed plan to suit and it was a good read following their journey in how they dealt with it.

Currently we have a girl named Isabel doing the AAWT and there is a negative vibe in the comments around how she is going. In some places where she has blogged that she was lost, I had lost the track in places as well, I knew where I was and with the track named as indistinct (other words most likely not there) you navigated to where you had to go. That's what they most likely did and they got through. I love the fact that she isn't sitting on the couch at home on facebook. We need more kids out there and lucky for her that she has such supportive parents. I'll hopefully meet up with her somewhere on the track and it will be good seeing someone chasing a dream.

So do you kill the dream or put the extra effort in and guide it?

I think the Question needs refining.
I will always lean towards guiding ( as wiil most people).
I have also killed dead in an instant a bollocks idea my kids have had.
I don't see it as a binary thing
In principle, guiding is best.

I still remember Jmac's story, and ask myself what is good advice.



I don't think it is possible to answer the question..
I wi
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Re: Do you kill the dream or guide it?

Postby geoskid » Wed 18 Nov, 2015 8:34 pm

north-north-west wrote:Guidance is always the best option. But sometimes you know from your own experience of places and conditions that people are not just stepping outside their comfort zone, but taking big enough bites to choke themselves* and endanger others in the process. And if those people won't listen to plainly expressed advice . . . well, when it's drugs or gambling or similar addictions we refer to 'enablers'. To me, not plainly saying that someone is trying to run before they have learnt to crawl is being an enabler.
You don't have to jump up and down and trample the dreamers into the dust, but warning them about flaws in planing and preparation is part of the guidance. And for some of us it's hard to have that advice ignored - at least in part because we're aware of the potential consequences.

Or am I just trying to excuse my own occasional lack of patience with some of the more blatant wannabes . . . :?

(*please excuse the mixed metaphors. it's a caffeine-free day)


Good , honest reply NNW.
I understand giving advice in all honesty and having it ignored. You have done the best you can.
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Re: Do you kill the dream or guide it?

Postby Mark F » Wed 18 Nov, 2015 8:52 pm

When I reply to people with possibly over ambitious plans I hope I am not relentlessly negative but rather I try to identify things they need to consider before embarking on their adventure. This is usually about gaining skills or some experience. Why do I do this - because when the sh1t hits the fan other people, s&r, police, paramedics etc, all interrupt their lives and possibly put themselves in danger to rescue the usually naive but enthusiastic adventurer.
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Re: Do you kill the dream or guide it?

Postby geoskid » Wed 18 Nov, 2015 9:09 pm

Mark F wrote:When I reply to people with possibly over ambitious plans I hope I am not relentlessly negative but rather I try to identify things they need to consider before embarking on their adventure. This is usually about gaining skills or some experience. Why do I do this - because when the sh1t hits the fan other people, s&r, police, paramedics etc, all interrupt their lives and possibly put themselves in danger to rescue the usually naive but enthusiastic adventurer.


Interesting isn't it. Obvious question Mark - How did you learn what you pass on?

I think it comes down to different personalities, and we all know someone that had to find out by experiencing it. Don't we ? :) Do we?
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Re: Do you kill the dream or guide it?

Postby wayno » Thu 19 Nov, 2015 2:44 am

I try and set realistic expectations, good on the people who ask for advice and take on a realistic message.
some people ask for advice and cherry pick what they want to hear to fit their expectations and assumptions.
i dont like bursting peoples bubbles. but some people are in love with the scenery of where they want to go and dont always want to accept some of the risks that go with going to some of those places. Theres a lot of sad stories of people who went into the wilderness, and didnt get enough advice or ignored it.
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Re: Do you kill the dream or guide it?

Postby ErichFromm » Thu 19 Nov, 2015 6:25 am

Sandbars wrote:I have spoken with both our pommy friend and the delightful Isabel. Our pommy friend I gave this advice: use your gear before you get here. Spend a night alone outside before you get here. I am not sure any advice helped him - and I am a little saddened that he spent so much money and did so little here.


Can someone point me toward the thread or update for this guy? was following for a while and was curious to see how it turned out - sounds like not well.....
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Re: Do you kill the dream or guide it?

Postby Mark F » Thu 19 Nov, 2015 6:54 am

geoskid wrote:Interesting isn't it. Obvious question Mark - How did you learn what you pass on?

I started in cubs, scouts and senior scouts where I had the benefit of leaders like Ray Jerrems, who was a very experienced bushwalker - not many scout groups have leaders with his background. Later I joined SUBW and after Uni the Kamerukas. I did push the boundaries when I was younger - I would like to continue pushing them but age is catching up with me. I was leading friends on 2 and 3 day walks in RNP, Shoalhaven etc around the age of 16 but I had a base of knowledge and a little experience by that time. At times we did strike difficulties but that base of some experience plus good map reading and bush skills meant that the difficulties could be overcome a clear head and application of those skills.
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Re: Do you kill the dream or guide it?

Postby GBW » Thu 19 Nov, 2015 8:21 am

I know this couple who have 9 months experience doing overnighters and they think they can walk from Baw Baw to Howitt along the AAWT unassisted without seeking any advice. What would you say to them?
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Re: Do you kill the dream or guide it?

Postby Mark F » Thu 19 Nov, 2015 8:35 am

I would say go for it. They have some experience and have been out over night. My advice may be different if they had only done day walks. The main issue they face is the length of the trip and the degree of isolation for a week or so which does affect some people more than others.
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Re: Do you kill the dream or guide it?

Postby icefest » Thu 19 Nov, 2015 8:53 am

That shouldn't be too difficult. The biggest change for them will probably be finding water.
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Re: Do you kill the dream or guide it?

Postby walkon » Thu 19 Nov, 2015 9:32 am

GBW wrote:I know this couple who have 9 months experience doing overnighters and they think they can walk from Baw Baw to Howitt along the AAWT unassisted without seeking any advice. What would you say to them?


:) you did ask questions about all things hiking at a particular bbq though GBW
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Re: Do you kill the dream or guide it?

Postby north-north-west » Thu 19 Nov, 2015 12:00 pm

GBW wrote:I know this couple who have 9 months experience doing overnighters and they think they can walk from Baw Baw to Howitt along the AAWT unassisted without seeking any advice. What would you say to them?

I would start with two questions.
1) How many walks of what duration in that 9 months?
2) When?

But if they're determined to do it without asking for advice, saying anything to them is going to be pointless. I'd suggest crossing your fingers and hoping for the best.
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Re: Do you kill the dream or guide it?

Postby Chris » Thu 19 Nov, 2015 6:57 pm

ErichFromm wrote:Can someone point me toward the thread or update for this guy? was following for a while and was curious to see how it turned out - sounds like not well.....


http://www.bushwalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=19655&p=261369#p261369

http://www.bushwalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=21339&p=281565#p281565

https://m.facebook.com/GarethOzHike
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Re: Do you kill the dream or guide it?

Postby Sandbars » Thu 19 Nov, 2015 8:31 pm

GBW wrote:I know this couple who have 9 months experience doing overnighters and they think they can walk from Baw Baw to Howitt along the AAWT unassisted without seeking any advice. What would you say to them?


I would tell them to leave a buffer between when they plan to come off the track and when they HAVE to be back somewhere - because unless they have spent their overnights banging up and down the alps they might find a remarkable difference in a 17km day on the AAWT and many other tracks. In the Strzelecki's we were banging out 28 km days - on the AAWT, we were struggling with 17. I would tell them if they are travelling late in the season to leave water at Fiddlers Green - even in October it was looking pretty dry. I would tell them that Mt Mac was gorgeous, and that the water was plentiful but the path a pain near Low Saddle, where the leeches were voracious. Tell them that stuff seems to weigh more on a longer trip... but after three days of rain, the view from the next high bit might make you do a little happy dance.

Tell them that its a great walk - but unpredictable, and that I hope they have the bestest time!
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Re: Do you kill the dream or guide it?

Postby Travis22 » Fri 20 Nov, 2015 1:25 am

Some people cannot be helped, the dream killers that is.

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