Should we close tracks or mandate the use of PLBs?

[GPSGuided]

I think it's quite different b/n resorts and NPs. For resorts (limited area), if they are concerned of the safety of their customers, then it's easy and relatively cheap to build a few radio repeaters on mountain peaks and then the clients just need to carry simple and cheap walkietalkies to maintain communication. No need for PLBs. As for NP and other wilderness areas, I think the PLB rental model is appropriate and the limit. It's up to the individual to be sensible with their outdoors activities.

[wayno]

i've watched hundreds of people proceed past this sign on the tongariro crossing in street clothes, jeans, thin jacket in storm conditions, obviously its not written clearly enough for people to understand and they need a better one, its only five feet high, should be bigger.

[GPSGuided]

But as the sign says, consider. It's not definitive and the trampers made their personal call. As such, it's their responsibility.


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[Strider]

It also tells them what they SHOULD do. Not what NOT to do.

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[Nuts]

I've often thought a parks service database for intentions is a great idea and fits well. Underfunding is not the issue, expectation of 'user-pays' is.

Along the same lines, I'd rather see a backcountry pass.. education rather than mandated technology or closure.

[GBW]

I think signs like the one wayno has posted will have greater meaning if you mention the word "DIE" in the description. It's a little morbid but even some statistics, names and photos of people who have died on a walk could have more of an impact and make people think before they act.

[wayno]

[GPSGuided]

Some people treat death as a joke. Our society is generally very safe and many just don't have the perspective on dangers and risks. The word 'death' means little to them. Still, I think the responsibility should be up to the individual and modified through education. The expectation is that there'll always be those who are beyond help and need to be assessed through Darwinism.

[izogi]

I think a major issue where that TC sign is concerned, and probably other similar ones is:

People come to NZ hearing something like "it's the best daywalk in the world". They plan to walk it as part of their trip through the area. Then spend weeks traveling, meeting people who tell them how fantastic it is. They want to try out this tramping thing, and it's the only opportunity they'll have. They decide on a time in their plans. They book accommodation. They really really really want to do it. Then the day comes. Today's the day! They drive to the end of the road. Then it's a bit windy. Or it's raining. Or they don't have a raincoat or great footwear. And there's a sign. And once you're there, there's really very little else to do, plus they have to be elsewhere tomorrow for whatever's next on the list, and perhaps tomorrow's weather is forecast to be worse.

Should they have researched it better beforehand? Sure, but they didn't. That's why DOC's put a sign there: to tell people who didn't adequately research it that even though they've been planning this for ages and ages and ages and they really really really really really want to do it, and now that they've finally made it here and are on the edge of starting their dream and logistically today might be their only opportunity, they really need better shoes (which, by the way, you should have brought with you because you can't get them here), and therefore they should turn around and go home.

So now they have the choice between the thing they've been told is a brilliant, unmissable experience, which they've been wanting to do so much for weeks, or months, or years, plus they can turn around if it's really as bad as the sign says. Or they can obey the sign and not do it.

I don't think it's any surprise that many people ignore that sort of sign under the circumstances. It's easy to simply talk to others nearby who are just as enthusiastic, reinforce the more convenient belief that any risk is very low, and that the plastic disposable poncho is going to be fine as a raincoat when it doesn't even look as if it'll rain, and that DOC's probably just covering itself from legal action, and do it anyway.

[wayno]

part of the problem with the tongariro crossing is people are using pre booked public transport, its done as a one way through trip, from one road end to another one and thers no easy way to get there other than complete the crossing track. and that transport tehy booked is only going to pick them up at the end of the trip and they feel committed, I saw a young lady crying part way up the crossing because of a storm, a friend asked why she didnt turn back, she said she had to catch her bus on the other side... i asked people if they knew where tehy were and they had no idea, no map, no compass. little idea what to expect on the track, that it was going to be completely exposed for 15 kilometres... the trip is advertised far and wide to people who arent experienced hikers, its advertised alongside other easier generic tourist activities that your average run of the mill tourist does that doesnt need experience or skill. and a lot of people just book the bus thinking how hard can it be?
DOC's website for the tongariro crossing now includes information on weather thresholds, it tells people not to attempt the ccrossing when the metservice forecast for REd Crater on the tongariro mountain forecast page is over set wind and windchill thresholds for both wet and dry conditions.
its not the first thing you see you have to drill into a tab and scroll down before you get to that information

[GPSGuided]

You are absolutely right izogi! It's almost contradictory to NZ's international advertising campaign, one that promises no disappointments amongst all the wonders of the country. There's no anticipation by the tourists that there will be serious risks and potential disappointments if one goes about it sensibly. How can the objectives b/n tourism drive and tramper safety be harmonised? They'll always conflict.

[Lophophaps]

Wayno, maybe DOC could have small emergency shelters at intervals of, say 5-8 kilometres, perhaps with emergency comms so that people in strife could at least get out of the weather and perhaps call SAR if necessary. Nothing flash, just an airlock, windows, walls, roof and floor. I've done the first half or so until I peeled off south to around Ngaurahoe and back to the village. Nice walk, very exposed.

GPSGuided, yu said "How can the objectives b/n tourism drive and tramper safety be harmonised? They'll always conflict." Very true. Human safety is or should be paramount.

[wayno]

not sure how much its part of the park management plan but DOC arent in favour of building structures on the crossing, everything is so exposed, in good weather they stand out a mile away in the scenery. hence the signs to get people to go prepared... and the bus companies all agree not to run when the forecast is over a certain threshold, but weather being what it is that isnt fullproof. i was up there when the weather was worse than forecast, there would have been a lot of people close to hypothermic or possibly even some in the early stages by the time they finished. usually the ill equipped get away with doing the walk in those circumstances,

[GPSGuided]

GPSGuided, yu said "How can the objectives b/n tourism drive and tramper safety be harmonised? They'll always conflict." Very true. Human safety is or should be paramount.

But there are limits. To be absolutely safe, no one can afford the Nth degree of investment. At the end of the day, NZ is selling the great outdoors and all that comes with nature. It's up to the individual to understand the limits of their ability. With an extensive building program and legal baggage, the experience will no longer be the same. Life is a series of probabilities that we adults have to be responsible for, DOC/NP should not be burdened with the unreasonable.

[wayno]

if you build more shelters on the tracks you are arguably encouraging people to attempt them in bad weather, with a walk that has thousands walking it in a day shelters would need to be a reasonable size to cope with numbers.

[Lophophaps]

But there are limits. To be absolutely safe, no one can afford the Nth degree of investment. At the end of the day, NZ is selling the great outdoors and all that comes with nature. It's up to the individual to understand the limits of their ability. With an extensive building program and legal baggage, the experience will no longer be the same. Life is a series of probabilities that we adults have to be responsible for, DOC/NP should not be burdened with the unreasonable.

The problem is that those getting into strife will not be aware of their limits, necessary gear and the weather until it's too late. I'm not talking five star, just a possible small refuge hut or two. The huts can be made easy to find from the track but not visible from a distance.

if you build more shelters on the tracks you are arguably encouraging people to attempt them in bad weather

Not easy getting a balance, is it?

[GPSGuided]

Not easy getting a balance, is it?

That's the crunch isn't it? It's a diminishing return issue and just how much warning and infrastructure is enough? I'd say that there will always be outliers who'll put themselves in danger. How much is enough?

[wayno]

or you can go the way of Mt Fuji and maximise tourism infrastructure on a mountain...

http://www.halfwayanywhere.com/asia/jap ... ount-fuji/

[GPSGuided]

or you can go the way of Mt Fuji and maximise tourism infrastructure on a mountain...

Dare I say that few present day lovers of the NZ outdoors want to see movements in that direction. Obviously there'll be money to be made for the country and region, but it'll have to be a domestic decision to be made by the NZers.

[DarrenM]

This is the kind of thing we aren't getting right in KNP. Both the signs you have posted are IMO better than anything we have at the trail heads here.

NZ is seemingly getting the basic signage right. When we talk about signs, people need to understand that it's not supposed to be the only way to get the message across. Of course people will walk past them when they shouldn't. If you think nobody at all reads them and takes note, you would be wrong.

We talk about wanting to educate people, well this is a small part of that education and again, take a look at the difference in signage in KNP and NZ. If it gets just one person thinking differently then it is working on some level.

I'd rather see large obnoxious signs that I'll remember than shelters on the Main Range that most people couldn't get to when things get ugly. People will die regardless of shelter and signage.

[wayno]

those signs are still pretty unique in NZ, cascade saddle gets serious injuries happening on it most years and there have been half a dozen deaths in ten years. all happening in marginal weather conditions or people not equipped for traction in snow or ice.
the tongariro crossing has had a lot of incidents of official and unofficial rescues and at a few deaths over the decades. and is known for a lot of ill equipped people attempting it. a signs only any good if people heed the message, as i've mentioned the tongariro crossing puts people in a situation where they still feel they have to complete it in order to get to their pickup ride at the other end, so they reluctantly ignore the sign. given the no of people on the track though i think someone could still make money by sending a bus at the end of the day to the normal bus drop off point to collect people who couldnt complete the trip and radio for more if they are needed. some of the buses picking people up have to head back that way to drop people off anyway. but my understanding is, nothing like that happens

[DarrenM]

It's simply a way to get people thinking about their responsibility. Would you be happy if they were removed ? I get the fact people walk past them but it's everybody's responsibility to educate and this is one small way of doing it.

[wayno]

those signs are needed there on easily accessible tracks that invite large no's of novices, otherwise they'd look at putting more shelters up.

[izogi]

There's also a certain amount of resistance to signs around here. In part, I think, because the DOC went on a sign-installing binge some time ago which resulted in a large number of arguably pointless signs that people often find patronising and silly. And then people have accidents, despite all the signs telling them to keep max 1 to every bridge and that the stream-water "provided by DOC at this facility" 3 days from civilisation is probably safe but they can treat it if they want to. Accidents are usually due to the sorts of reasons where accidents occur (ie. lots of reasons combined) and everyone zeroes in on Coroner's recommendations to "add more signs", whether it's DOC adding them or other people criticising it.

[north-north-west]

Accidents are usually due to the sorts of reasons where accidents occur (ie. lots of reasons combined) and everyone zeroes in on Coroner's recommendations to "add more signs", whether it's DOC adding them or other people criticising it.

There's so often an over-reaction to people being ignorant and stupid, and Coroners' recommendations are part of it. You cannot legislate against ignorance and stupidity, but they try to. And they ignore the simple fact that some people just can not be told.

[wayno]

the "into the wild" bus is a big drawcard now,
lots of inexperienced people wanting to go there,
it requires crossing a dangerous river which becomes impassable at times. a lot of people need rescuing and some die.
a case of the popularity of a place attracting too many people.
now theres talk of putting a bridge across the river, negates the purpose of what chris mccandless was trying to do.

The trooper I had spoken with about the rescue of the Grand Hotel employees complained to me that people heading into the wilderness for purposes of self-discovery can be driven in a way that makes them do stupid things, such as disregarding the weather

with the tongariro crossing, it gets far far more publicity than any other track in the region, yet there are plenty of very scenic, less demanding and risky walks to do in the area,
a lot of people doing the crossing would have a better experience doing one of those other tracks. and people don't have to be commited to walking the full length of a track because their only guaranteed transport out is at the other end of the track.
is it similar with Kosiusko?
so why so much publicity on one smaller area in a larger area that has as much to offer. its a myopic approach. DOC are making money out of every guided walker and every walker taking public transport to the track. and they have kept upgrading the track to make it easier to walk, easier to get high into the mountains faster where you can get into trouble faster.
you go to cradle mountain and you'd be forgiven for thinking before hand all that existed was one track to cradle mountain, when theres a number of different loop walks you can do in the area, but who outside of the area has heard of those walks? anyone heard of Mt rufus who's not from tasmania? fantastic, straight forward walk next to lake st clair, i went there in summer and had the place to myself while lake st clair and craddle mountain were teeming with people. its just one example of whats on offer and how little it gets promoted.

http://www.outsideonline.com/1920626/ch ... on-problem

[DarrenM]

and everyone zeroes in on Coroner's recommendations to "add more signs", whether it's DOC adding them or other people criticising it.

I've been a campaigner of better signage in KNP well before this particular incident occurred. I cringe every single time I leave trail heads in the said national park in all seasons and watch people head off completely unaware of the dangers. I'm not talking about those who will go regardless, but others who simply don't understand the nature of weather in the area.

Signage is just the basic default starting point of a larger multi pronged campaign. We are looking at what can be done short of passing legislation to close tracks and mandate PLB usage. Let's get the basics right in KNP first because if you don't like signs your shore as sh$t won't like being forced to reconsider what you do as free will now.

[wayno]

you need something to inform the unaware at road ends. popular tracks like that, the less aware just base what the weather is like at the carpark to decide what gear they should take. they dont understand how deceptive the weather can be.
i was on the tongariro and was with a Dr, she was going to leave behind a jacket because it was a clear day, it was minus 6 plus wind chill. theres a lot of direct heat from the sun , esp in the mountains where the suns strength is stronger, and you can feel warm in cold air if its not windy, later on cloud came over and the wind got up and then the effect of the cold temps hit you... i've gone from baking to freezing in the mountains because a cloud moved in front of the sun.