ADVICE TO NICE GUYS

[stry]

Suggesting that recognising the validity of concerns triggered by so called "womens' intuition" and performing the task of assessing the information presented to a jury are analogous is absurd.

To suggest that women's misgivings arising from this intuition are any sort of bias is equally absurd. Of course you may be suggesting that my view and the credence that I give womens' apparently amorphous feelings are cognitive bias, which would also be absurd.

I have dealt closely with people from a range of backgrounds and vocations over more than 40 years and when younger frequently made the mistake of applying logic to womens' feelings. Grudgingly I was drawn through numerous observations to the conclusion that I stated and stick to - the misgivings of a mentally healthy woman about a person, that person's demeanour, or conduct are very seldom baseless.

[slparker]

its bollocks. For the reasons previously stated. Intuition is not reasoning. Women and men's intuition is wrong all the time.

It's the mentality of the lynchmob. 'Oh, He must be dangerous because my wife had 'that feeling''.

It's BS. theres plenty of psychological research that at people's misgivings are completely subject to suggestion and bias. It's amazing to think you might consider someone a threat because a woman has 'a feeling' about them.

[stry]

You really are doing an excellent job of making tenuous connections between very far flung dots.

At no time did I suggest that I would consider someone a threat because a woman has a feeling about them. I was deliberately vague because the "feelings" are often vague and difficult even for the person with the feeling to articulate. I simply acknowledge and take notice. Acknowledging and taking notice is not judging or acting.

I doubt that Shakespeare was talking about this topic, but his quote seems appropriate. "There are more things in heaven and earth Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

It is the rigidity of thought on this topic, that you seem (I may be misunderstanding you) to be displaying that causes the angst. My view was formed, somewhat against my natural inclinations, as a result of listening, reading, observing and thinking.

These skills seem to be used with diminishing frequency nowadays, and that is not a comment aimed at you any particular individual.

I offered my currently held view because others who appear to have difficulty with this topic and persist in trying to rationalize it, may find it helpful. Butting heads over what some study does or doesn't say and whether it or does or does not not discredit some thing that continues to be difficult for anyone to explain is pointless.

It seems that you do not wish to consider or acknowledge that something beyond the concrete may exist in this context, and that is perhaps a little disappointing, but so be it.

Hopefully what I have expressed will give others something to consider.

[Lophophaps]

I was deliberately vague because the "feelings" are often vague and difficult even for the person with the feeling to articulate. I simply acknowledge and take notice. Acknowledging and taking notice is not judging or acting.

I offered my currently held view because others who appear to have difficulty with this topic and persist in trying to rationalize it, may find it helpful. Butting heads over what some study does or doesn't say and whether it or does or does not discredit some thing that continues to be difficult for anyone to explain is pointless.

Hopefully what I have expressed will give others something to consider.

That's a reasonable summary. Six months ago the female OP was upset by a male staring at her. It matters little if the reaction was based on fact, logic, intuition or Jupiter ascending into Mars. The upset reality just is. This thread is looking at ways to minimise such reactions, and make people - mostly males - aware that their behaviour may be contrary to good conduct.

Heed the words quoted above "acknowledge and take notice." This is where we should be at.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/basics/intuition
"We think of intuition as a magical phenomenon—but hunches are formed out of our past experiences and knowledge. So while relying on gut feelings doesn't always lead to good decisions, it's not nearly as flighty a tactic as it may sound."
Elsewhere, intuition is defined as "the ability to understand something instinctively, without the need for conscious reasoning."

NZ, Nelson Lakes. The party had split intentionally, half going over a longer ridge, half going to the summit, where we would meet. From the summit I saw five tiny dots, visible only because they were moving. I struggled to point the dots out to my friends on the summit. Three were well down, two were high. There was no conscious thought when I said that this was T and H, and that they could need assistance. I later worked out that my conclusion was because T was the slowest, H was the most responsible, and he would stay with T. I was right. Mad rush across a kilometre of broken ground, met them just above the flatter part, glad that I did not have to ascend the bluff. This was instinct, born of deep knowledge of the other party and many years in the mountains. True, it had a logical basis, but I did not think about that until later. I just knew. Regardless of the veracity of my view I acted as if it was true, and this is what the OP did.

[slparker]

Intuition is a form of pattern recognition, which is what our brains are evolved to do.

Intuition is a good workaday mental shortcut that has worked well in our evolutionary past and continues to serve us generally well.

it is completely fallible, however, and for every instance of intuition being correct there are many examples of intuition failing to provide a factual basis in reality. Intuition fails in predictable ways especially when evaluating probability, for example.

I reject that notion that because somebody 'feels' something about another person that that states anything other than that the person 'feels' something. yes, perhaps the person is picking up cues that might reflect malevolent intent from another. But it is likely, also, that the person who feels uncomfortable is mistaken.

if I read Sty's comment correctly he/she is stating that women's intuition is infallible regarding the malicious intent of others. Anyone schooled in the science of psychology or with more than a casual interest in the legal system would know that this is incorrect. Women's intuition about men may be correct or may be incorrect. We have no way of knowing as intuition is not reliable.

[north-north-west]

if I read Sty's comment correctly he/she is stating that women's intuition is infallible regarding the malicious intent of others. Anyone schooled in the science of psychology or with more than a casual interest in the legal system would know that this is incorrect. Women's intuition about men may be correct or may be incorrect. We have no way of knowing as intuition is not reliable.

Logical.
But, all the same, I'm going to continue 'erring' on the side of caution, so when my gut tells me a situation is dicey I'll take steps to get the hell outa Dodge.

[neilmny]

if I read Sty's comment correctly he/she is stating that women's intuition is infallible regarding the malicious intent of others. Anyone schooled in the science of psychology or with more than a casual interest in the legal system would know that this is incorrect. Women's intuition about men may be correct or may be incorrect. We have no way of knowing as intuition is not reliable.

Logical.
But, all the same, I'm going to continue 'erring' on the side of caution, so when my gut tells me a situation is dicey I'll take steps to get the hell outa Dodge.

You don't have to be female to make good use of the "gut feel" either NNW.

[slparker]

Not saying that it isn't useful. Just saying that we shouldn't be tarring people with brushes based upon intuition.

'That creepy guy my wife saw yesterday' may be completely innocent of anything, because intuition is very fallible. Not only that but predictably fallible. Hearing someone describe (or reading about) an asian guy in derogatory terms can make it more likely to see the next asian guy you meet as a threat. Insert any characteristic you like for the word asian - most of the psychological studies have been done around african americans

By all means be careful and trust your intuition just don't mistake them for facts.

[Happy Pirate]

Interesting thread.
It's funny. I'm sure we would ALL like to encourage more women to get out bush and particularly to brave the wilds alone.
And you'd have to be an idiot not to aknowledge that women hiking alone, generally, are fearful of and prone to much more harrassment and intimidation than solo men or groups.
And yet somehow, when a solo-hiking woman offers her genuine perspective (so rarely heard) her opinion has to be constantly argued against, contradicted, mansplained and finally hijacked by posts of ninja death-punches.
Thanks Guys,
kinda proves her point
Steve
(OK come at me;-))

HP, I don't think anyone was arguing against the OP or discounting the uncomfortable experience she had. In my case I was disagreeing with the premise that all male bushwalkers needed a reminder about correct behaviour. This has drawn the ire of some of the more PC minded members who seem to think that I am obliged to submit myself to being educated about correct behaviour simply for the Original Sin of being a male.

No. you're right. They were just arguing from their own paradigm rather than reading the post and empathising with the OP. Which is my problem with much of this forum and all others. The lack of empathy towards virtual people or ideas.
When we rub shoulders with others of our species we learn - from imitation or interaction, how to behave. When we post online- we scream obscenities into a vacuum; I'm as guilty of this as anyone.

[GTL]

Why should this be aimed at "GUYS"? My girlfriend got ogled at by a lesbian on a hike a while ago. Funny, but creepy

[boronia]

Although I don't do overnight walks or go to very remote areas, all my bushwalking is alone (because I like it, but sometimes also because I just don't know anyone with the same passion), and whenever I want to try some place new my first and #1 thought is whether I think I'll feel comfortable or if there's a high likelihood I might run into a psycho(s) and potential difficulty of escape. There are many places I'd love to go but have ruled out because I don't feel comfortable alone for whatever reason. I admire the women who have more courage than me!

Of course there's no way to know whether it will happen in one place or another, but I do get nervous trying new places for that reason. Nothing else scares me in the bush. Only the potential threat of rapist/murderer/groups of drinking rednecks out "hunting" or just being idiots, and so on.

The same goes just for walking in a park or anywhere else (where it's probably more likely to happen). I imagine almost all women have these thoughts in the back of the mind constantly when out alone, which is necessary (sadly) to avoid becoming naive and thinking "it won't happen to me".
On the other side of coin I always like to say hello to someone when passing (I rarely see other women walking alone), and like to think I have some sort of intuition for people but the definition of a psychopath is they're often masters of disguise and charm, so a high level of distrust is required.
With all this said, I'd hate to walk past a nice man who wanted to avoid contact so I don't feel uncomfortable, only to have him be potentially (one in a billion chance perhaps?) the man of my dreams Because that's where I'm likely to meet him - out doing the things I love - not at a pub
Is it worth the risk to trust a total stranger in the bush though.. not really. Very sad that the minority of psychos/creeps/rapists do ruin it for the nice guys.

[neilmny]

boronia,
You could be confident that the road trip to the track head is far more fraught with danger than the bushwalk but we always have doubts and fears ingrained into us from a young age.
Some rise above it some don't. As a male I have one foot in and one foot out of that door. Some places just don't feel right even if there's no one else to be seen.

[boronia]

boronia,
You could be confident that the road trip to the track head is far more fraught with danger than the bushwalk but we always have doubts and fears ingrained into us from a young age.
Some rise above it some don't. As a male I have one foot in and one foot out of that door. Some places just don't feel right even if there's no one else to be seen.

That's usually when they don't feel right
(sorry, realised you meant driving to the walk. I meant walking from track - car. Heat getting to me )

Having done some night time forays into the bush a while back, getting back to the car was always the scariest part. Given that up though. Freaked myself out one too many times. Fine with friends but not alone.

[Grose Chick]

This is a subject I am actually quite passionate about, and stirs me, leaves me trembling. Considering that, I probably shouldn't be replying. But, here's my pov. I try and avoid people. I go to great lengths to achieve that. However, on the odd occasion I do bump into them, I am happy to consider the odds, and will give anyone the time of day. I will chat with them if that's what they seem inclined to do, even exchange contact details if we seem to be like minded people. I have no problem spending an hour of my time with someone who is respectful and friendly. I am also aware that "different" does not necessarily mean "bad".

Anyhoo, I'm shaking like a leaf at the moment. I'll leave this here.

[Happy Pirate]

Why should this be aimed at "GUYS"? My girlfriend got ogled at by a lesbian on a hike a while ago. Funny, but creepy

Did you ask her if she was a lesbian? Did she say so? Or did you just assume?
I've been 'ogled at' and derided by people who didn't like my pack set up.
And to answer your question... How many solo MALE walkers fear being attacked by lesbians?
How many women have ever been attacked / raped by random lesbians?

[Happy Pirate]

This is a subject I am actually quite passionate about, and stirs me, leaves me trembling. Considering that, I probably shouldn't be replying. But, here's my pov. I try and avoid people. I go to great lengths to achieve that. However, on the odd occasion I do bump into them, I am happy to consider the odds, and will give anyone the time of day. I will chat with them if that's what they seem inclined to do, even exchange contact details if we seem to be like minded people. I have no problem spending an hour of my time with someone who is respectful and friendly. I am also aware that "different" does not necessarily mean "bad".

Anyhoo, I'm shaking like a leaf at the moment. I'll leave this here.

Hey TamarJ
I'm sorry this is a difficult subject for you.
I haven't read through the backlog of post so forgive me.
I was going to bring up social anxiety - something I've experienced at times. Esp when you said " I try and avoid people. I go to great lengths to achieve that."
But then you say "I will chat with them if that's what they seem inclined to do, even exchange contact details if we seem to be like minded people. I have no problem spending an hour of my time with someone who is respectful and friendly."
Not really the description of someone fearful or anxious; just cautious.

So I'm sorry if something terrible has happened to you but I would like to ask you from your raw perspective:
Have you ever been genuinely threatened or attacked?
How, from your perspective, are issues of this nature best dealt with?
Is there even an issue? Do you feel less safe in the bush than in the city / suburbs?

I don't mean to scare you but you sound like someone whose perspective should be known.

I wish you safe travels
Steve

[Grose Chick]

I have been attacked a number of times Steve. Despite that, I know most people are good.
And yes, I feel safer in the bush. There is less people there. I do not have to be on guard all the time.
Yes, I am cautious around new people until I get to know them.
Not many people have the patience to wait that long though.

[waggy]

Really uncool to be made to feel that way. Im a guy and would never intentionally do that. i might be curious as to tent or pack or jacket but would hope not to freak anyone out. I think the best response if a situation like that occurs is to be on the front foot. Be bold, but smart. Don't antagonise but be very clear on what your feeling. Be confident.
As to uncomfortable situations with strangers, i try not to offend but in the end its a choice between "being nice" and that then reflecting on my time, or "being honest" and breaking a few rules of politeness. I choose the later. And the more you do it, the easier it gets.